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S-400 : A silver bullet for IAF air defence systems?

The concerning factor with the S400 system is not its missiles but its Radar Range Due to its long-range and Pakistan being a narrow country the movement of our paratroopers And large reconnaissance aircraft are demoralised also due to the radar and the long-range missiles big reconnaissance and troop transport aircraft are used with caution leading to a blunt in offensive capabilities but no need to worry the answer to such systems is long-range cruise missiles, long-range stealth suicide UAVS and land-based EW systems so in short, Pakistan needs to increase first its Babur Missiles range to at least 1500km second to Build or buy Stealthy Suicide UAVs like the ones used to target Saudi oil facility and last but not least buy Koral land-based EW system from Turkey all these are a must and the military establishment needs to have a serious rethink
You are so right but india has good radars system of equivalent range today. So does Pakistan so as we can see 500-600 kms in India specially by using our awacs aircraft. I believe we should add more more sensing capability but on an offensive as you say rightly invest heavily in EW, ELINT and offensive drones rather than fixed air defenses.

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You see reconnaissance aircrafts are large and can be easily detected engaged by S400 from a pretty good range in order to get good result with EW and AWACS the main point is to stay out of anti air missiles range but since the S400 has an missile especially built for targeting reconnaissance and said aircraft there use is somewhat held back against such systems leading to reduced effectiveness so it's better to focus on long range strike options for such systems rather than air Based EW but land based EW is an option like you mentioned
You are so right but india has good radars system of equivalent range today. So does Pakistan so as we can see 500-600 kms in India specially by using our awacs aircraft. I believe we should add more more sensing capability but on an offensive as you say rightly invest heavily in EW, ELINT and offensive drones rather than fixed air defenses.

k
 
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S-400 can be defeated by:

1. DF-17 missile.
2. DF-ZF missile.
3. H-20 Stealth bomber.
4. J-20 Stealth fighter.
5. Armed Drones already purchased!

Note Pakistan is already in works with china to defeat S-400, as you seen in Shaheen-IX!

I will not be surprise, one of these are on buying list in future.
 
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S-400 can be defeated by:

1. DF-17 missile.
2. DF-ZF missile.
3. H-20 Stealth bomber.
4. J-20 Stealth fighter.
5. Armed Drones already purchased!

Note Pakistan is already in works with china to defeat S-400, as you seen in Shaheen-IX!

I will not be surprise, one of these are on buying list in future.
Just wondering, how do you know that Pakistan is working with China to defeat the S-400?
 
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Turkiye has proved in Libya and Azerbaijan that drones are the kings.

Air defence systems are too expensive and are no match for drones.
nothing in stand alone form is answer to everything. no one tool can achieve total domination. the military defence system is way to complex and needs all elements all tools and alternatives and contingencies and redundancies in place to ensure domination. hence ground , air, space. sea based weapons, sensors, radars etc will be needed to work in a net centric environment and deployment of a tool or kind of weapon will depend on a fluid situation. limiting yourself with one one tool only is a disastrous policy.
 
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I've said it before & I'll say it again...systems like the s400 are basically expensive but false sense of security. lest we forget, russians have the s400s have been stationed in Syria for at least 3 years now, multiple u.s. & isreali bombing raids have taken place, multiple cruise missile attacks have occurred...and the s400s have ZERO kills on their score card. one can play linguistic & diplomatic gymnastics all they want with claims like "its only to protect russian forces" or "americans and isrealis inundate the russians with requests not to intercept prior to the raids" or blah blah blah bidy blah...it doesn't change the fact that the s400 holds zilch kills, zero intercepts of anything be it an aircraft or a missile or even a pigeon!
 
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Theorical vs practical range of Air Defense systems. I've seen a few people saying that the S-400 systems bought by India would allow the IAF to target PAF planes as they take off from their bases, thanks to the 400km-range of the system. It's not the case.
We don't know yet where will the S-400s be based precisely, but according to indian news outlets, three of the five systems will cover the Indian border with Pakistan.
Because these are plausible options, I decided to set up two systems at the Bikaner and Ambala airbases, and an additionnal one is the south to cover the gap.
Now, two small details:
1- The 400km missile of the S-400 is the 40N6. This missile is not designed to intercept fighters. Its role it to engage ISR platforms, tankers and other non-maneuvering targets at very long range.
The missile is probably not available to India yet, as it barely entered russian service. It'll come to India eventually, but not now. In the meantime, the longest-range missile available will be the 48N6DM (formerly the 48N6E3), with a 250km range.
2- The pictures and infographics released by Indian authorities do not depict the 91N6E Big Bird D as the long range search and acquision radar of their S-400s. Instead, pictures of the less powerful 96N6E Grave Stone are used.
This might be done on purpose to confuse people, or India might have not bought the more expensive Big Bird at all.
Without the 40N6 and the 91N6E, the maximum range of the S-400 is significantly reduced, as illustrated here.
For the sake of this discussion however, let's assume that both the 40N6 and 91N6E are available to India today. Does that means that the S-400s will be able to extend their engagement bubble over Pakistani territory? Well, it depends.
The IAF is lucky in that there is barely any relief on India's western flank, so radars are able to work without any terrain masking issue. This is great for long range systems.
However, the Earth is still a sphere, and this does cause some problems related to radar horizon. The further you want to detect something, the higher it has to be. This is because otherwise it is hidden behing, well, the Earth.
In order to detect a target at its maximum range (600km), the 91N6E would need to be looking at something flying at around 20.000 meters. This is really high. Like, MiG-31-high. For a more reasonnable cruise altitude of 10.000m, the pratical range falls to approximately 370km.
Tactical fighters can fly much lower than that. At 1000m, the radar range has fallen to 150 kilometers. And for cruise missiles flying even lower, well, you guessed it, the range is lower as well.
This is what the radar ranges are for all three systems for a target altitude of 8.000 fts (~2450 m). Note the open corridors and the non-overlapping coverage.


Because of this radar horizon issue alone, indians S-400s will not be able to shoot down pakistani fighters on take off. They will however be a significant threat as the planes are getting closer to the border.
Now, all of this is nice and cool, but there's another elephant in the room. These ranges I just gave are theorical ranges. Just because you *can* detect a target flying at 1000m at 150km doesn't mean that you *will*.
Small-sized or low-observable aircrafts can reduce the pratical range even further, so let's make some very (VERY) basic testing.
A small disclaimer here: while the radar horizon problem is well understood and modelled in CMO, radar stealth is much complex to get right. Unlike with the radar LOS calculations, anything done w/r to stealth is indicative at best and should not be taken at face value.
Let's start by putting a Boeing 747 in front of the S-400. The starting altitude is 11.000m. As soon as the plane gets above the radar horizon, at 388km, it is detected, tracked and engaged with a 40N6. Well played.
Great work!
 
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Beside other counters, here is the one for India to be worried....

So slow Sir, coupled with JSOW type weapons and some continuous guidance (countering 'shoot and scoot'), then it be lethal.
 
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So slow Sir, coupled with JSOW type weapons and some continuous guidance (countering 'shoot and scoot'), then it be lethal.

As long as it is undetected, not intercepted & gets the job done, speed is a plausible compromise. When it comes to speed, you are compromising maneuverability as well. Secondly, as long as it is sea skimming or ground hugging/terrain maneuvering to remain stealth, it is going to do the necessary. Different weapons with different doctrine, advantages, deployment & tactics. I am not even talking about course correction & 2 way data link.
 
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Really good explanation by Pakistan General

Acquasition range 600km
Engage 400km max
5 different missles
5 regiments
costing $5 billion

Considered the best in the world

He explains the impact at strategic tactile level and how it will severly impact PAF response

India can target all of PAF

With deployment of 450km to 750km GLCMs and 550km ALCMs supported by other weapons and systems it's not easy for India to use S-400 aggressively against Pakistan also our military have access to S-400 to know it and tackle it.
As the General pointed out that when China acquired the system, some Indian Two Star Officer was of the opinion that it will not be so effective against India but now that India is acquiring it, it suddenly becomes a war winner.....the claimed range also seems to be exaggerated and above all it's not battle tested.
Nothing that some decent cruise missile will not be able to counter effectively.

Current training launch of missiles are also a signal to enemy that we can handle what they can throw at us and also capable to respond very lethally.
 
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