Russia's S-400 Is Way More Dangerous Than You Think

[The SC]

One use of the S-400 long-range missile is against stand-off systems including flying command posts and aircraft such as the E-3 Sentry AWACS. These aircraft, which are used by the US and its NATO allies with a squadron stationed in Japan at Kadena AFB and in the UAE at al-Dhafra, are vulnerable to S-400 interceptors and lose their stand-off range protection. We may be reaching the end of the AWACS capability, which were originally designed in the 1960s.

Saudi Arabia’s agreement to purchase the S-400 anti-aircraft Triumf anti-missile system from Russia is a major blow to the United States and its European allies.
The deal follows Turkey’s $2.5 billion agreement to buy the S-400, and ongoing negotiations with Egypt for the S-400. Egypt already has the S-300VM system (also known as the Antey 2500) which can engage short- and intermediate-range ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, precision guided weapons, strategic and tactical aircraft, as well as early warning and electronic warfare aircraft. (Originally the S-400 was called the S-300 PMU-3.)

Among other countries with the S-300 system are Greece, a NATO ally who got them from Cyprus when the Turks threatened Cyprus with war unless the country gave up its missiles. Thus, they were given to Greece to defuse a crisis with Turkey.
There are other users of these systems. There is China, of course, but also India, Ukraine, Venezuela and NATO member Bulgaria, to name a few.

But the S-400 is the real game changer. The reason is the multiple intercept missiles the S-400 system can fire. The S-400 supports four different missiles – the very long range 40N6E-series (400 km), the long range 48N6 (250 km), the 9M96e2 (120 km) and the short range 9m96e (40 km). By comparison the US Patriot system supports only one interceptor missile with a range of 96 km.

But there is more. The 9M96E2 is one of the jewels of the S-400 system. It flies at Mach 15 (around 5,000 meters per second or 18,500 kph), it can engage targets as low as 5 meters off the ground, and it can maneuver pulling up to 20 Gs (a human can withstand no more than 9 Gs with special pressure suits and helmets and for only a few seconds). It is designed to knock out penetrating aircraft and missiles flying “off the deck” or just above ground and neutralize cruise missiles.

Dr. Carlo Kopp, one of the world’s top aerospace experts, says the S-400 has optional acquisition radars designed to defeat modern stealth aircraft such as the F-22 and the F-35. They work by operating in multiple frequency bands including both VHF and L bands that can “see” stealth-protected fighters.

Stealth designs have been built on low-detection by X-band radars, the most common military and civilian radars (others such as C-band – now known as the G/H band – are less prevalent). The F-35 has stealth protection mainly in the front of the aircraft, meaning that when it turns away from its target it is vulnerable. In time, the entire air defense system of the US and its allies, all based primarily on X band, will become obsolete as China and Russia move toward stealth aircraft and missiles.

Along with the radar enhancements (which may or may not be delivered to foreign customers), Russia has a formidable integrated air defense system even though the size of its truly modern aircraft fleet is quite small compared to the United States and NATO. Russia lost a decade in the arms race when it had no money to develop and build new aircraft, and its economy today barely supports acquisition of effective numbers of new equipment. Indeed, one of the reasons Russia developed its air defenses along with wanting to counter US stealth aircraft and cruise missiles is because it could not afford a big fleet of modern fighter aircraft. (The US administration and Congress should pay close attention to Russia’s limited offensive capabilities, not too often done these days of anti-Russian hysteria in Washington.)

One use of the S-400 long-range missile is against stand-off systems including flying command posts and aircraft such as the E-3 Sentry AWACS. These aircraft, which are used by the US and its NATO allies with a squadron stationed in Japan at Kadena AFB and in the UAE at al-Dhafra, are vulnerable to S-400 interceptors and lose their stand-off range protection. We may be reaching the end of the AWACS capability, which were originally designed in the 1960s.

The S-400 also has capability against ballistic missiles, a feature that surely attracted Saudi Arabia’s interest. How good it is against ballistic missiles? No one knows for sure.
The Saudi decision to buy the S-400 is probably linked to Egypt’s earlier purchase of the S-300VM and desire to get the S-400. Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states probably paid for Egypt’s weapons.

The Russians have definitely made a breakthrough with sales of weapons to some NATO countries with uncertain futures in the bloc (e.g. Greece, Turkey) and strong US client countries such as Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states such as the UAE. One immediate new example: Russia says the UAE is just months away from buying the formidable Su-35 multirole fighter jet, the current Queen of the Russian Air Force fighter fleet.

The Russian breakthrough makes sense in technological terms. The US does not have a true competitor to the S-400 system and the US is not anxious to see such systems proliferate. Too bad and too late.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-s-400-way-more-dangerous-you-think-24116

 

[MMM-E]

By 2023-2025 Turkey will have accumulated a very advanced, multi-layered Air Defense Systems

High altitude/Anti-ballistic defense

• Hisar-U
• Aster 30B2
  
• S-400

Medium altitude

• Hisar-O/Nokta
  
• ESSM
• Hawk XXI

Low altitude

• Hisar-A
• Hisar MANPAD
  
• KMS/Stinger
• Igla
  
• Korkut 35mm SPAAG
• Aselsan high energy LASER

also 4 of Boeing 737 AEWCs and KORAL Radar Electronic Warfare System

 

[LeGenD]

Sounds like a fanboy propaganda piece with lot of hype and theory in the mix.

S-400 is certainly a potent AA/AD system and is a threat to individual assets but no system is sufficient against network centric-warfare capabilities of American war-machine in isolation.

And some people talk about F-35 as if it is a 4.5th generation combat aircraft with lot of vulnerabilities against modern AA/AD systems - the height of gullibility.

F-35 will never operate alone and its squadron will prove its mettle when the time is right. Another thing is that the extent of its stealth is not disclosed to the public, and stealth is not about shape only. SOP of USAF is to employ its F-22 and F-35 in a contested but shared battlefield environment such as Syria with RCS enhancers.

Keep guessing.

FYI: http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/...ters-evade-detection-device-makes-visible.htm

 

[cabatli_53]

One use of the S-400 long-range missile is against stand-off systems including flying command posts and aircraft such as the E-3 Sentry AWACS. These aircraft, which are used by the US and its NATO allies with a squadron stationed in Japan at Kadena AFB and in the UAE at al-Dhafra, are vulnerable to S-400 interceptors and lose their stand-off range protection. We may be reaching the end of the AWACS capability, which were originally designed in the 1960s.

Saudi Arabia’s agreement to purchase the S-400 anti-aircraft Triumf anti-missile system from Russia is a major blow to the United States and its European allies.
The deal follows Turkey’s $2.5 billion agreement to buy the S-400, and ongoing negotiations with Egypt for the S-400. Egypt already has the S-300VM system (also known as the Antey 2500) which can engage short- and intermediate-range ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, precision guided weapons, strategic and tactical aircraft, as well as early warning and electronic warfare aircraft. (Originally the S-400 was called the S-300 PMU-3.)

Among other countries with the S-300 system are Greece, a NATO ally who got them from Cyprus when the Turks threatened Cyprus with war unless the country gave up its missiles. Thus, they were given to Greece to defuse a crisis with Turkey.
There are other users of these systems. There is China, of course, but also India, Ukraine, Venezuela and NATO member Bulgaria, to name a few.

But the S-400 is the real game changer. The reason is the multiple intercept missiles the S-400 system can fire. The S-400 supports four different missiles – the very long range 40N6E-series (400 km), the long range 48N6 (250 km), the 9M96e2 (120 km) and the short range 9m96e (40 km). By comparison the US Patriot system supports only one interceptor missile with a range of 96 km.

But there is more. The 9M96E2 is one of the jewels of the S-400 system. It flies at Mach 15 (around 5,000 meters per second or 18,500 kph), it can engage targets as low as 5 meters off the ground, and it can maneuver pulling up to 20 Gs (a human can withstand no more than 9 Gs with special pressure suits and helmets and for only a few seconds). It is designed to knock out penetrating aircraft and missiles flying “off the deck” or just above ground and neutralize cruise missiles.

Dr. Carlo Kopp, one of the world’s top aerospace experts, says the S-400 has optional acquisition radars designed to defeat modern stealth aircraft such as the F-22 and the F-35. They work by operating in multiple frequency bands including both VHF and L bands that can “see” stealth-protected fighters.

Stealth designs have been built on low-detection by X-band radars, the most common military and civilian radars (others such as C-band – now known as the G/H band – are less prevalent). The F-35 has stealth protection mainly in the front of the aircraft, meaning that when it turns away from its target it is vulnerable. In time, the entire air defense system of the US and its allies, all based primarily on X band, will become obsolete as China and Russia move toward stealth aircraft and missiles.

Along with the radar enhancements (which may or may not be delivered to foreign customers), Russia has a formidable integrated air defense system even though the size of its truly modern aircraft fleet is quite small compared to the United States and NATO. Russia lost a decade in the arms race when it had no money to develop and build new aircraft, and its economy today barely supports acquisition of effective numbers of new equipment. Indeed, one of the reasons Russia developed its air defenses along with wanting to counter US stealth aircraft and cruise missiles is because it could not afford a big fleet of modern fighter aircraft. (The US administration and Congress should pay close attention to Russia’s limited offensive capabilities, not too often done these days of anti-Russian hysteria in Washington.)

One use of the S-400 long-range missile is against stand-off systems including flying command posts and aircraft such as the E-3 Sentry AWACS. These aircraft, which are used by the US and its NATO allies with a squadron stationed in Japan at Kadena AFB and in the UAE at al-Dhafra, are vulnerable to S-400 interceptors and lose their stand-off range protection. We may be reaching the end of the AWACS capability, which were originally designed in the 1960s.

The S-400 also has capability against ballistic missiles, a feature that surely attracted Saudi Arabia’s interest. How good it is against ballistic missiles? No one knows for sure.
The Saudi decision to buy the S-400 is probably linked to Egypt’s earlier purchase of the S-300VM and desire to get the S-400. Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states probably paid for Egypt’s weapons.

The Russians have definitely made a breakthrough with sales of weapons to some NATO countries with uncertain futures in the bloc (e.g. Greece, Turkey) and strong US client countries such as Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states such as the UAE. One immediate new example: Russia says the UAE is just months away from buying the formidable Su-35 multirole fighter jet, the current Queen of the Russian Air Force fighter fleet.

The Russian breakthrough makes sense in technological terms. The US does not have a true competitor to the S-400 system and the US is not anxious to see such systems proliferate. Too bad and too late.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-s-400-way-more-dangerous-you-think-24116

The missile types come with its minus and plus to operators. There is nothing unbeatable in battlefield. The best thing to know is to use the best proper missile in perfect time and environment in accordance with changing conditions.

The SAM missiles with IIR seekers are one of the most effective one. If system algorithms/electronic structure are perfect enough to distinguish actual targets from Chaff/Flare, Survival of an aircraft from a likely IIR missile strike is almost impossible but Their ranges are limited at terminal phases because of weather conditions, heating problem clutter effect on high speeds of missiles. Those are directly effect the performance of related seekers when they are compared to missiles using RF seeker.

Clear skies on relatively high temperature regions such as Central Anatolia are convenient to IIR seeker. Rainy, Foggy, Misty weather conditions such as East Black-Sea affect the detecting range/visibility of seeker robustly at terminal phase. The best sensor performing better results are LWIR in Category-1 and 2 class fog and IIR seeker head with LWIR detectors can't perform anything better than the performance of a naked eye in Category-3 so Active RF seeker is better on longer ranges without being effected by wheather conditions but open more to be jammed/detected by enemy sensors.

Here is the results of detection range (km) performance of different bandwith (Naked Eye, MWIR, LWIR) IIR seekers in a condition of a 10 degree temperature differences between ground and target location. As It is seen, The naked eye performs better than any sensor in category-III heavy foggy condition, because heavy fog clouds can't be penetrated by thermal radiations . In Category-II, LWIR is 4x superior to MWIR.

Rain can significantly reduce target contrast on IIR sights and LWIR or MWIR perform similarly in the presence of rain. Range on rainy weather is a dramatic drop off in the 100-500 meter range.

Category I: visual range 1220 meters
Category II: visual range 610 meters
Category IIIa: visual range 305 meters
Category IIIc: visual range 92 meters

so Combination of both sensor on a deadly medium range national missile system inside of same launchers will make a big surprize to enemy assets supposing to benefit the atmospheric conditions in favour of own interests to reach their targets.

Hisar-O RF Seeker Head

Hisar-O IIR Seeker Head

The best IIR solution from Aselsan. Dual-Band

The best SAM system is a relative issue changing in accordance with geographical conditions, enemy tools, climate and specific requirements but should host following items certainly:

-Multi-layered
-Network Centric
-Multi-seeker head (Ka band RF, Ku Band RF and MWIR/LWIR-QWIP IIR) options
-S/X band advanced radar coverage (GaN based)
-Domestic capabilities and national critical subsystem


Sole S-400 doesn't make much sense against an advanced enemy, If you don't have such national combinations in your hand.

 

[Taygibay]

And tactics follow real situations.
Let's say the S-400 brings a new strategic value.

Either you go simple and hunt it with stealth ACs
informing the present day AEW&Cs from afar or
you upgrade to stealth AEW&Cs altogether?

And that's just OTOH ideas that transformation
centers certainly study all the time.

Have a good night, Tay.

 

[The SC]

The missile types come with its minus and plus to operators. There is nothing unbeatable in battlefield. The best thing to know is to use the best proper missile in perfect time and environment in accordance with changing conditions.

The SAM missiles with IIR seekers are one of the most effective one. If system algorithms/electronic structure are perfect enough to distinguish actual targets from Chaff/Flare, Survival of an aircraft from a likely IIR missile strike is almost impossible but Their ranges are limited at terminal phases because of weather conditions, heating problem clutter effect on high speeds of missiles. Those are directly effect the performance of related seekers when they are compared to missiles using RF seeker.

Clear skies on relatively high temperature regions such as Central Anatolia are convenient to IIR seeker. Rainy, Foggy, Misty weather conditions such as East Black-Sea affect the detecting range/visibility of seeker robustly at terminal phase. The best sensor performing better results are LWIR in Category-1 and 2 class fog and IIR seeker head with LWIR detectors can't perform anything better than the performance of a naked eye in Category-3 so Active RF seeker is better on longer ranges without being effected by wheather conditions but open more to be jammed/detected by enemy sensors.

Here is the results of detection range (km) performance of different bandwith (Naked Eye, MWIR, LWIR) IIR seekers in a condition of a 10 degree temperature differences between ground and target location. As It is seen, The naked eye performs better than any sensor in category-III heavy foggy condition, because heavy fog clouds can't be penetrated by thermal radiations . In Category-II, LWIR is 4x superior to MWIR.

Rain can significantly reduce target contrast on IIR sights and LWIR or MWIR perform similarly in the presence of rain. Range on rainy weather is a dramatic drop off in the 100-500 meter range.

Category I: visual range 1220 meters
Category II: visual range 610 meters
Category IIIa: visual range 305 meters
Category IIIc: visual range 92 meters

so Combination of both sensor on a deadly medium range national missile system inside of same launchers will make a big surprize to enemy assets supposing to benefit the atmospheric conditions in favour of own interests to reach their targets.

Hisar-O RF Seeker Head

Hisar-O IIR Seeker Head

The best IIR solution from Aselsan. Dual-Band

The best SAM system is a relative issue changing in accordance with geographical conditions, enemy tools, climate and specific requirements but should host following items certainly:

-Multi-layered
-Network Centric
-Multi-seeker head (Ka band RF, Ku Band RF and MWIR/LWIR-QWIP IIR) options
-S/X band advanced radar coverage (GaN based)
-Domestic capabilities and national critical subsystem


Sole S-400 doesn't make much sense against an advanced enemy, If you don't have such national combinations in your hand.

It is obvious in modern day warfare to have a multi layer air defence system connected through a sound and safe network.. as far as Turkey is concerned.. I think it is a good idea to develop its own missiles that fit its geography and meteorology.. and as for the use of the proper missiles for the proper target at the best time, it is most likely related to training and maybe to some level of automation when the target is detected and identified..If there are 4 TELs with 4 launchers each.. it will be much easier to automate..since every launcher will have a different range missile or even a combination of 4 different missiles on each TEL. still other combinations are possible.. and the whole system is connected through a command post and Radars.. A good C4I is a must..

 

[egodoc222]

And tactics follow real situations.
Let's say the S-400 brings a new strategic value.

Either you go simple and hunt it with stealth ACs
informing the present day AEW&Cs from afar or
you upgrade to stealth AEW&Cs altogether?

And that's just OTOH ideas that transformation
centers certainly study all the time.

Have a good night, Tay.

Stealth AWACS? I don't think it is possible...I think once they turn on their radars they become detectable..no?

 

[Taygibay]

Depends on what they use to acquire info.
Imagine an OSF x 1000 due to size of carrier
or it being covered in AESA skin captors.

Heck, if it can be "dronized" at some point,
it may drop in size something serious?

There's always room to grow.
Have a great day, Tay.