Russian experts ordered needless work on Kilo Sub INS Sindhukirti

[SrNair]

Russians would come in our way in eventually.They understand it seriously when we gave contracts to US.

 

[Sahasranama]

That was F-35. Are the Amrikans selling Submarines to us ? They do not even produce a non nuclear sub.

 

[general_yermolov_stalin]

That was F-35. Are the Amrikans selling Submarines to us ? They do not even produce a non nuclear sub.

Go on bharat rakshak or other forums and do a background check on Ajay Shukla .

Ajay Shukla an agent ?

 

[Sahasranama]

Go on BR or other forums and do a background check on Ajay Shukla .

You are questioning his "motive". I don't care about his motive, only about the facts reported.

Maybe you could focus on the facts too instead of trying to figure out Ajay shukla's or xyz's motive ?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

so will the sub join the fleet by 31st March 2015 or is it a writeoff

Just take that article by Ajai Shukla with a "sackful of salt"........ While the Russians are no saints (who is a saint nowadays?) that story is BS.

Let me explain; any "Expert" can recommend anything; as an user I have to have some basic understanding of the Equipment that I own and operate.
Most of which comes from the Original Plans, Detailed Drawings and Specifications that I get along with the Ship/Submarine when I induct it. Plus my own Maintenance Records and Operational Logs maintained by me (or my people) are available to me. All this information (which is huge and comprehensive) allows me to make my own assessment and even question the opinions of the "Experts".

Even HSL is a ship-building yard not a road-side-mechanics garage. They have resident Naval Architects and Engineers who can (and must) vet (question) all the work-specifications. After all; they are from the same side as the owner of the Submarine, or are'nt they?

As a Ship-Manager/Operator; I have had the experience of Repair-Yards quoting all kinds of work-specifications, but I will have the responsibility to accept or reject the work on the basis of that which is necessitated by operational or sea-worthiness requirements.

Let us analyse just one aspect of the complaint put forth by Ajai Shukla (on behalf of whom-----HSL or IN? )
It pertains to structural re-building or what is commonly known as "steel renewal" in Marine Parlance. Corrosion leads to reduction in thickness of steel plating which is called "dimunition" or "wastage" in Ship-Building. The extent of this dimunition is determined by inspection/survey which includes even NDT like ultrasonic/radiographic measurement and even pressure testing. That is compared to the original drawings/blueprints and one gets a correct picture of the extent of wastage. There are then norms which specify at what level, entire plates will need to be replaced. Or re-built by building up sections as Shukla has been told by his source (HSL ?) Norms for this are clearly spelt out and written down. Could nobody in HSL or anywhere in India not question the "experts" on their basis? Amazing??
Is there only one goddamned set of "experts" in this world?

Or is it that HSL goofed up big-time and took on much more they could have managed??
Or that HSL applied their usual "legendary norms of productivity" to this refit also??

There is more to this story than meets my eye..........

 

[kaykay]

Ajay Shukla is a famous Yankee a$$ licker.

 

[general_yermolov_stalin]

Ajay Shukla is a famous Yankee a$$ licker.

Precisely.

 

[Sahasranama]

Just take that article by Ajai Shukla with a "sackful of salt"........ While the Russians are no saints (who is a saint nowadays?) that story is BS.

Let me explain; any "Expert" can recommend anything; as an user I have to have some basic understanding of the Equipment that I own and operate.
Most of which comes from the Original Plans, Detailed Drawings and Specifications that I get along with the Ship/Submarine when I induct it. Plus my own Maintenance Records and Operational Logs maintained by me (or my people) are available to me. All this information (which is huge and comprehensive) allows me to make my own assessment and even question the opinions of the "Experts".

Even HSL is a ship-building yard not a road-side-mechanics garage. They have resident Naval Architects and Engineers who can (and must) vet (question) all the work-specifications. After all; they are from the same side as the owner of the Submarine, or are'nt they?

As a Ship-Manager/Operator; I have had the experience of Repair-Yards quoting all kinds of work-specifications, but I will have the responsibility to accept or reject the work on the basis of that which is necessitated by operational or sea-worthiness requirements.

Let us analyse just one aspect of the complaint put forth by Ajai Shukla (on behalf of whom-----HSL or IN? )
It pertains to structural re-building or what is commonly known as "steel renewal" in Marine Parlance. Corrosion leads to reduction in thickness of steel plating which is called "dimunition" or "wastage" in Ship-Building. The extent of this dimunition is determined by inspection/survey which includes even NDT like ultrasonic/radiographic measurement and even pressure testing. That is compared to the original drawings/blueprints and one gets a correct picture of the extent of wastage. There are then norms which specify at what level, entire plates will need to be replaced. Or re-built by building up sections as Shukla has been told by his source (HSL ?) Norms for this are clearly spelt out and written down. Could nobody in HSL or anywhere in India not question the "experts" on their basis? Amazing??
Is there only one goddamned set of "experts" in this world?

Or is it that HSL goofed up big-time and took on much more they could have managed??
Or that HSL applied their usual "legendary norms of productivity" to this refit also??

There is more to this story than meets my eye..........

There is always more to any story than what meets the eye. However let us look at this objectively and compare it to a different real world scenario.

IN is required to have an iron clad CONTRACT with their vendors, be it russian or Indian, including HSL. That being done they are supposed to exercise that contract. If that fails they are required to move to the court to get adequate compensation for damages. Now it does not matter if HSL is a govt. agency and IN is a govt. agency. What matters is commitment to the contract an demurrages thereafter.

HSL is well within its right to exercise a poor contract in its favour.

If the IN had no other choice of vendor to repair its ships, it should draft contracts that gives them adequate leverages and control and ability to take corrective action.

If IN finds it difficult to negotiate such a contract then it would have done better not do the deal in the first place. No one gets into a Risk without a risk mitigation plan and a Risk avoidance plan. What was IN plan B ? It din't have one.

I have been personally involved with negotiations with the IN and I have always found them to be Naive and much like "babes in the wood". If they do not have expertise to negotiate contracts, they should first IDENTIFY this as their weakness and then get outside help. Its not hard to get good patriotic Indian contract Lawyers or Negotiators to negotiate on behalf of the IN.

The problem as I saw it then and still see it now is that IN thinks it knows all about negotiating a contract and therein lies the root cause of its problems.

 

[axisofevil]

Agree but "friends" never do "Harami-panti" . Russia don't see India as a friend, they're exploiting emotional fool India.

FINALLY the one poster who gets it. There are deep friendships or allies at least for us.

Precisely.

Yea says the Indian living in Russia

 

[GHOSTS]

There are NO FRIENDS in international relations, only INTERESTS.

Russians are expected to take care of their own Interests, Indians are expected to take care of our own interests. Who failed in their duty ?

Indians or Russians ?

Tell that to emotional fool Indians. Always calling Russia India's best friend lol.

 

[Sahasranama]

Tell that to emotional fool Indians. Always calling Russia India's best friend lol.

I think we pretend to be a emotional fool to cover up our laziness and incompetence.

Unlike Russians in the days of the Iron curtain, we do not live in a protected cocoon, to be unaware of harsher realities of life. The IN/IAF and IA however does live inside such a cocoon which needs to be torn open ASAP.

 

[TimeTraveller]

Don't worry India and Russia are good friends..Our friendship is not that much weak to get disturbed due to a submarine..So friends just calm down...

 

[Capt.Popeye]

There is always more to any story than what meets the eye. However let us look at this objectively and compare it to a different real world scenario.

IN is required to have an iron clad CONTRACT with their vendors, be it russian or Indian, including HSL. That being done they are supposed to exercise that contract. If that fails they are required to move to the court to get adequate compensation for damages. Now it does not matter if HSL is a govt. agency and IN is a govt. agency. What matters is commitment to the contract an demurrages thereafter.

HSL is well within its right to exercise a poor contract in its favour.

If the IN had no other choice of vendor to repair its ships, it should draft contracts that gives them adequate leverages and control and ability to take corrective action.

If IN finds it difficult to negotiate such a contract then it would have done better not do the deal in the first place. No one gets into a Risk without a risk mitigation plan and a Risk avoidance plan. What was IN plan B ? It din't have one.

I have been personally involved with negotiations with the IN and I have always found them to be Naive and much like "babes in the wood". If they do not have expertise to negotiate contracts, they should first IDENTIFY this as their weakness and then get outside help. Its not hard to get good patriotic Indian contract Lawyers or Negotiators to negotiate on behalf of the IN.

The problem as I saw it then and still see it now is that IN thinks it knows all about negotiating a contract and therein lies the root cause of its problems.

Its not confined to what you say; was there even a contract between the IN and HSL? Is there EVER a contract between IN and any of the DPSU yards that build all their warships, a half-decent contract anyway?
If there was; then believe you me, the penalty clauses if liquidated would have paid for half the costs of the ships and the DPSU yards would have filed for bankruptcy!
I do say that on the basis of having been part of negotiating and enforcing maritime contracts else-where including shipyards.

But here the problem is not of a contract; it is simply technical in nature; the lack of any worthwhile contract is a "fig-leaf" to cover something else.......rank incompetence.

And this news-paper piece is another "fig-lea" in the public domains, since news-paper reports (recently) indicated that MoD is considering the sub as written-off?

Ajai's report just does not stand, because if the scope of work has inflated even by 12000% that does not mean that the work cannot be done.
At some other yard for instance, like the SBC (just next door in Vizag where INS Arhant has been built) or even L&T who have made a pressure hull to much more stringent requirements.
What do you have to say about that??