Russia says in race to bag mega sub deal

[kaykay]

Nirbhay on P75I? we haven't got the land version correct yet. even a sub size Brahmos hasn't been tested from a submerged platform yet. The concern would most definitely be a platform for the K4 and K15 under development first.

Okay thanks but read this news. Which submarine would integrate brahmos then?? Any Idea??
articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.co...rwater-pontoon-brahmos-missile-cruise-missile

 

[illusion8]

Okay thanks but read this news. Which submarine would integrate brahmos then?? Any Idea??
India test-fires submarine-launched version of BrahMos missile - Times Of India

Ok I missed that, thanks.

 

[Dillinger]

@All

There is no official movement on the follow on acquisition of submarines after the Scorpene deal. There is no official tender as such in the sense that it is more of a statement of intent and expressing requirements and criteria for possible selection. So it would do us well not to speculate too much.

As to launching SLCMs from a conventional submarine, it is not required. The Nirbhay was not designed for being launched from conventional submarines. It has been predominantly designed to work in conjunction with platforms such as the Arihant SSBN and surface combatants. The same applies to the B0-5 and the prospective K-4 wrt submarines. The only CM on the list which can be considered for conventional submarines is the Brahmos and that too only if the IN expresses a firm requirement for such a fitment. Conventional submarines with silos capable of housing long range SLCMs are a requirement for countries that shall not be going nuclear anytime soon wrt their sub-surface fleet- not for us since our fleet modernization plan calls for exactly the opposite.

 

[Archie]

yeah but Brahmos in present form can't be fired from normal tubes. They will need silos. And I guess in future Nirbhay won't be able to be fired from tubes too.
PS: though India can fire club missiles from tubes.

Yeah But Klub can be intercepted ,while brahmos can not

 

[IND151]

It is considered an outsider in the race to bag the Indian navy’s contract for a new generation, long endurance conventional submarine but Russia maintains it is a strong contender as it will soon have the Air Independent Propulsion.

It was the lack of the AIP, which drastically increases the capability of a submarine to stay underwater by reducing dependence on compressed oxygen to burn fuel, that was seen as a disadvantage to Russia’s participation in the navy’s Project 75I to procure six new generation conventional submarines. Conventional submarines can stay underwater for a few days but those equipped with AIP can stay submerged for more than three weeks, giving the operator advantage in terms of stealthy operations and sneak attacks.

Russian designers said the system will be ready by 2016 and may even be fitted on Russian vessels by 2018. “The AIP is no longer a stumbling block to our participation in the P 75I,” Andrey Baranov, deputy director general of the Rubin Design Bureau, said. “We will have a prototype of the system ready and in place by 2016.”

Russia has offered to help the DRDO develop an indigenous version of the AIP, Baranov said and stressed that India was unlikely to find other partners who would share such critical technology.

“The main difference between our system and others in the world is that we do not store hydrogen onboard but generate it. We also use standard diesel that the submarine has,” Rubin Design Bureau chief designer Igor Molchanov said. This, he said, makes the Russian AIP stealthier than the French and frees it of the need for shore-based hydrogen generating facilities which are required by the German system.

Both the French DCNS and the German HDW are strong competitors for the P 75I contract, which will be one of the largest global tenders in terms of money. There has, however, been delay in floating a tender though the decision to procure the submarines — to restore India’s edge in underwater operations in the region —was taken years ago.

The correspondent is in Russia at the invitation of the United Shipbuilding Corp.

 

[confound thinker]

Is it confirmed that The last 2 scorpenes will have AIP ?
And if the provision for 3 follow on scorpenes is activated then wont scorpenes have a major edge in P75I competition??

 

[kurup]

Is it confirmed that The last 2 scorpenes will have AIP ?
And if the provision for 3 follow on scorpenes is activated then wont scorpenes have a major edge in P75I competition??

As of now the confirmation is that if DRDO comes up with an AIP , they will integrate it with last 2 scorpenes .

France already has a working AIP in MESMA but no news about integrating it with scorpene not even the last two .

 

[confound thinker]

As of now the confirmation is that if DRDO comes up with an AIP , they will integrate it with last 2 scorpenes .

France already has a working AIP in MESMA but no news about integrating it with scorpene not even the last two .

As per wiki

The French MESMA (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) system is being offered by the French shipyard DCNS. MESMA is available for the Agosta 90B and Scorpène-class submarine. It is essentially a modified version of their nuclear propulsion system with heat being generated by ethanol and oxygen. Specifically, a conventional steam turbine power plant is powered by steam generated from the combustion of ethanol (grain alcohol) and stored oxygen at a pressure of 60 atmospheres. This pressure-firing allows exhaust carbon dioxide to be expelled overboard at any depth without an exhaust compressor.

Each MESMA system costs around $50–60 million. As installed on the Scorpène, it requires adding a new 8.3 meter (27 foot), 305 tonne hull section to the submarine, and results in a submarine able to operate for greater than 21 days underwater, depending on variables like speed, etc

 

[sancho]

If Russians lose this tender,they will have a hard time convincing the world that their weapons are world class.So far Russians lost every single tender in India.

Don't think so, because they will still find buyers for their products, since there are a lot of countries out there, with far less financial power and access to different arms or techs, than we have. Not to mention that although they lost in several competition, they still are and will remain Indias prime arms supplier.

But the problem is which Amur class?? Amur950 with silos or Amur1650 with AIP. I guess navy would wish for both silos and AIP but its unlikely that they will get both in any type.
@Abingdonboy @sancho @IND151 @Koovie @illusion8 @Skull and Bones shed some light on this.

The 1650 is on offer with AIP propulsion and Club missiles for the land attack requirement.

Okay thanks but read this news. Which submarine would integrate brahmos then?? Any Idea??
India test-fires submarine-launched version of BrahMos missile - Times Of India

Most likely one of our indigenously developed SSN, or SSBNs, if the news about another Akula class based on the Yasen design is right, it would be an option too, but in it's current form I don't see it on any of the SSKs, that's what Brahmos Light might be aimed on.

Is it confirmed that The last 2 scorpenes will have AIP ?
And if the provision for 3 follow on scorpenes is activated then wont scorpenes have a major edge in P75I competition??

No it's not, it's an option that is on offer, but which IN / MoD didn't took so far. Highly stupid imo, but what to do. Btw, the MESMA AIP is not really a proven one, since only Pak Navy uses it in their Agosta subs, while no Scorpene operator has it so far. India is a likely one, Brazil get the Scorpene hulls to integrate a nuklear propulsion.
The Russians is even less proven, since it's still under development and Russian navy seem to prefer upgraded Kilo class subs and not the Amur/Lada class.
The Germans are actually the most experienced once when it comes to AIP, but they seems to get away from their current hydrogen fuel cell AIP, to a metanol based one, more comparable to the French one, because the hydrogen fuel has some disadvantages too. That and the fact that the U214 is actually based on the older U209 design are disadvantages, while the new U216 is not only based on the more advanced U212, but also would have the new AIP version and VLS for cruise missiles, which actually would suit our requirements much more, but the U214 was offered in the competition, because it's developed and ready now.

 

[confound thinker]

Isn't the indigenous AIP which DRDO is trying to make also of fuel cell type?So if it has many disadvantages,was it a mistake on our part to go with this type or have we done this because it is easier to build for starters?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Yeah But Klub can be intercepted ,while brahmos can not

Don't be too sure about that.USnavy actually fears klub more than yakhont,due to earlier stealthy low approach subsonic trajectory which is very difficult to detect.Klub is an awesome missile.Only range is somewhat lesser.

 

[sancho]

Isn't the indigenous AIP which DRDO is trying to make also of fuel cell type?So if it has many disadvantages,was it a mistake on our part to go with this type or have we done this because it is easier to build for starters?

It's not the fuel cell that is the issue, but the hydrogen fuel, that is highly flamable and what makes refuelling at sea difficult, but otherwise it's one of the most advanced and proven systems that is available.
Not sure which fuel DRDO aim on, but don't put too much hope on that development. Instead of developing an indigenous diesel electric propulsion and which such SSKs uses for 80% of their endurance, they want to show off again by saying they developed an advanced AIP system. Completelly illogical and and useless for IN again!

 

[confound thinker]

It's not the fuel cell that is the issue, but the hydrogen fuel, that is highly flamable and what makes refuelling at sea difficult, but otherwise it's one of the most advanced and proven systems that is available.
Not sure which fuel DRDO aim on, but don't put too much hope on that development. Instead of developing an indigenous diesel electric propulsion and which such SSKs uses for 80% of their endurance, they want to show off again by saying they developed an advanced AIP system. Completelly illogical and and useless for IN again!

I think the indigenous is of hydrogen fuel cell type and the 2 major disadvantages of of these namely storage of hydrogen in the submarine and the issues with impure hydrogen are been taken care of by developing a system to generate hydrogen on board to avoid storing it and some advanced purification technique.So it may turn out to be pretty good ,and I don't think that may be a complete waste of time.

But ya an indigenous SSK design should be high on our priority list and it may not be a major hurdle for us since we already have built the Arihant.Really surprised why this has not happened yet!!!