Russia rules out arms sale to Pakistan

[Mav3rick]

Since Karan can not respond, let me take a stab at it...JF 17 being in the Pak airforce still does not change the fact that it is indeed a low cost / low end light fighter that Pakistan desperately needs to get out of the lost decade of sanctions and low affordability due to stumbling economy

And why couldn't Karan answer my post?

Anyway, just because it does not cost us as much to produce JF-17's as it costs other countries it does not mean that the performance is any less. You are, ofcourse, free to ease your minds.

Anyone with options always gets picky. The one with none (as is the case of Pakistan) has to glorify whatever it has to reduce dissonance.

You had no response for my post right? LCA is indeed a sad sad case, even after decades.

As does India.. That's a standard practice.. Even Cuba & mexico have done that analysis against USA

No wonder IAF is so keen to purchase MMRCA to counter JF-17's. I mean it wasn't a coincidence that PAF and PLAAF signed a contract to jointly develop a fighter in 1999 and in response IAF floated the MMRCA in 2001. Basically, MMRCA is your answer to JF-17's.

Poppycock.. You couldnt even get the french avionics that you wanted for thundar.. Forget the whole plane

French items were under consideration and negotiations were taking place. However, IAF decided to procure Rafael (instead of better alternates such as Eurofighter/F-16 (Block 70)). Anyway, there are always others who are willing to sell anything and everything.

Its not the question of need but that of availability.. Pakistan does not have the resources to buy 100 million dollar planes at this moment so it has to do with whatever it can get on soft loans from China..

Correct, however even as of today the tender for MMRCA has not been awarded. The tender that was initially floated 12 years ago is still not finalized. It may take another x number of years where the expected cost has already risen to US$20 - 26 Billion. Something that will be hard for even IAF to digest.

So pal, it's too early to count your eggs. Speak to me when you sign the contract and make any payment!

Foretell the future at your own peril dude.

Right back at ya. Ever growing 'will' have no ending on any of your procurement/development!

 

[Abingdonboy]

Correct, however even as of today the tender for MMRCA has not been awarded. The tender that was initially floated 12 years ago is still not finalized. It may take another x number of years where the expected cost has already risen to US$20 - 26 Billion. Something that will be hard for even IAF to digest.

So pal, it's too early to count your eggs. Speak to me when you sign the contract and make any payment!

Wait until March 2013 and then what will you fools be saying once the deal is signed?? Your ignorance is obvious by claiming the MMCRA is 12 years old-do some research. India has been praised by all companies involved and many AFs around the world for what it was able to do.

 

[foxbat]

And why couldn't Karan answer my post?

He probably rubbed a moderator the wrong way .. he is currently banned

Anyway, just because it does not cost us as much to produce JF-17's as it costs other countries it does not mean that the performance is any less. You are, ofcourse, free to ease your minds.

Its not based on the cost, but basis analysis of some of the esteemed seniors on this forum.. And please note I used the term low end and not low performance. I can explain the difference if you so desire..

You had no response for my post right? LCA is indeed a sad sad case, even after decades.

It may be from where you stand.. However, that is one project. It would be sad if India's airforce is compromised because of that. Since we do have other options, unlike Pakistan, its really not that sad as you may think to "ease your mind "

No wonder IAF is so keen to purchase MMRCA to counter JF-17's. I mean it wasn't a coincidence that PAF and PLAAF signed a contract to jointly develop a fighter in 1999 and in response IAF floated the MMRCA in 2001. Basically, MMRCA is your answer to JF-17's.

If that was the case, the planners in India must be cursing the overestimation of the Chinese-Pakistani joint venture..

French items were under consideration and negotiations were taking place. However, IAF decided to procure Rafael (instead of better alternates such as Eurofighter/F-16 (Block 70)). Anyway, there are always others who are willing to sell anything and everything.

In your language, that's a generic Loser's response...

Correct, however even as of today the tender for MMRCA has not been awarded. The tender that was initially floated 12 years ago is still not finalized. It may take another x number of years where the expected cost has already risen to US$20 - 26 Billion. Something that will be hard for even IAF to digest.

Still does not change the fact that IAF has open choices that it can make, where as PAF does not..

Right back at ya. Ever growing 'will' have no ending on any of your procurement/development!

We are still adding more planes every year than you despite long lead times of our procurement /development process.. Pakistan still has just 2 squads of JF 17 after 3 years of starting serial production.. Right ?

 

[arp2041]

Correct, however even as of today the tender for MMRCA has not been awarded. The tender that was initially floated 12 years ago is still not finalized. It may take another x number of years where the expected cost has already risen to US$20 - 26 Billion. Something that will be hard for even IAF to digest.

So pal, it's too early to count your eggs. Speak to me when you sign the contract and make any payment!

You don't know a thing about what MMRCA is, so better u should not say a word about it, since u have posted about MMRCA, let me make some points about it to u:

1. IAF first said about it's requirement of MMRCA some 12 years back, to replace it's aging mig-21 fleet, at that time IAF squadron strength was of 39 squadrons (with mig-21 forming the backbone of the entire fleet).

2. IAF said to govt. that it wanted 126 mirage-2000s in it's fleet since they proved there potential in the Kargil war, but the govt. was not in favor of a single vendor deal & instead focused on a multi vendor tender, anyways mirage-2000s were of 4th gen & they could not have been useful in the IAF's fleet in the post 2025 time frame since than already we would have 5th gen all around. So, issuing a tender turned out to be indeed a good decision.

3. IAF's current strength is of 34 squadrons after the 12 years, that means it's squadron strength has not decreased at an alarming rate thanks to su-30mki's, who now form the backbone of the IAF, i.e. though IAF's strength has decreased we have replaced the mig-21s with induction of newer su-30mki's, replacing a 3rd gen a/c with 4.5 gen a/c in 12 years & also maintaining the squadron nos. is no less an achievement.

4. There were some positives out of these long drawn process of MMRCA, which are - we got a much better plane in 4.5+ gen (rafale over mirage), we were able to have somewhat leverage over all the contender nations of MMRCA b'coz of this massive deal (like we signed nuke deal with US, forced France to lessen it's military sales to Pakistan,etc.) + now we have got complete technology from France with the MMRCA deal & not only this France is helping India in other tech. also like Nuclear, metro, etc.

5. Also, according to IAF's chief, our squadron strength will remain constant for next 5 years time until 2017 (& not further decrease), when u will see exponential growth in the IAF's nos. as well as tech. , with all Rafale, LCA, FGFA, Su-30s joining it's fleet in parallel, not to forget the up gradation of mirage, jags, mig-29s of IAF also, so in a decade, IAF will not only have nos. but will be a highly modern aerospace power in the league of USAF, RuAF & PLAAF, with highly modern combat jets, refuellers, transport planes it's own satellites, etc. .

So, i hope now u understand that 12 years is hardly much time to transform a localized air force to an aerospace power with global reach, i think we can be a little more patient with it.

+ As far as cost is concerned - If u have a 4.5+ gen plane like Rafale, than who gives a $hit at costs

 

[Mav3rick]

So that was Kayani's shopping list which he took to Russia

We already have all those things, even FD-2000 systems are extensions of S-300PMU2 systems.

 

[Mav3rick]

We declined F-16 Block60 Super Viper. Means we have better tech than F16
Russia has nothing to offer ??? Are u kidding me ? Chinese can't make a fcuking engine for jf-17 and u guys think they can make a 5th gen engine straightaway.. No they don't have any magic tattoo on their arse

You have nothing that can compete on par with F-16 Block 52 let alone Block 60 or Block 70 (India was offered Block 70 I think, not 60).

China is manufacturing all kinds of engines, just look up the W series of Jet engines. They have surprised us all time and again.

Could it be something to do with the number of RD 93 engines supplied by Russia to China so far. How many have been delivered so far and what's the news on additional supply.. Typically most air forces maintain 1 spare engine for every mounted engine in a fighter jet. So 100 engines would typically result in 50 working planes..

2 for 1 would be a serious waste, maybe 1 extra for 5 Jets? Anyway, no idea what was on the agenda.

 

[Mav3rick]

Wait until March 2013 and then what will you fools be saying once the deal is signed?? Your ignorance is obvious by claiming the MMCRA is 12 years old-do some research. India has been praised by all companies involved and many AFs around the world for what it was able to do.

LOLOL......what India have not been able to do in 12 years, I can do in 12 hours. And still be praised by all companies involved!

 

[arp2041]

LOLOL......what India have not been able to do in 12 years, I can do in 12 hours. And still be praised by all companies involved!

 

[illusion8]

You have nothing that can compete on par with F-16 Block 52 let alone Block 60 or Block 70 (India was offered Block 70 I think, not 60).

China is manufacturing all kinds of engines, just look up the W series of Jet engines. They have surprised us all time and again.



2 for 1 would be a serious waste, maybe 1 extra for 5 Jets? Anyway, no idea what was on the agenda.

F-16 block 52 - we have the SU 30 MKI's and soon to get super Sukhoi's, the rest are not in the area.

F-16 IN was rejected for a valid reason other than that it's a decent plane.

We already have all those things, even FD-2000 systems are extensions of S-300PMU2 systems.

Any confirmation or proof that Pakistan has bought HQ 9/FD 2000.

 

[Mav3rick]

He probably rubbed a moderator the wrong way .. he is currently banned

Oh ok, about time.

Its not based on the cost, but basis analysis of some of the esteemed seniors on this forum.. And please note I used the term low end and not low performance. I can explain the difference if you so desire..

Please do....

It may be from where you stand.. However, that is one project. It would be sad if India's airforce is compromised because of that. Since we do have other options, unlike Pakistan, its really not that sad as you may think to "ease your mind "

Well, you may consider the ultimate falling back to more foreign procurement instead of being able to produce anything worthwhile locally as being fine. Me, on the other hand, always thought that indigenous capability should be second to none. Why should we buy anything if we can produce better of it? What 'better' alternate can any country offer us?

If that was the case, the planners in India must be cursing the overestimation of the Chinese-Pakistani joint venture..

Or congratulating each other on the bulls eye on their outstanding, albeit rare, estimation and a good response in the MMRCA process.

In your language, that's a generic Loser's response...

You may call it that for your own hearts content, however we all know, including the bidders on MMRCA, what actually happened.

Still does not change the fact that IAF has open choices that it can make, where as PAF does not..

As I said, we will argue over this when we actually see things materialize......in about 5-10 years. With the current speed, you may be retiring SU-30MKI's by the time you actually get your hands on any MMRCA plane. What do we know, perhaps even LCA may make an appearance (fingers crossed)!

We are still adding more planes every year than you despite long lead times of our procurement /development process.. Pakistan still has just 2 squads of JF 17 after 3 years of starting serial production.. Right ?

As they say, what you don't know may hurt you. We had 2 squadrons by May last year so it's anybody's guess where we are today.

 

[illusion8]

LOLOL......what India have not been able to do in 12 years, I can do in 12 hours. And still be praised by all companies involved!

Yeah right.. PAF needs your 12 hour service badly, in fact the whole of Pakistan might desperately need this 12 hour service.

I too prefer the 12 hour package from my dry cleaner. Sabere do shaam ko delivery lo.

 

[Mav3rick]

F-16 block 52 - we have the SU 30 MKI's and soon to get super Sukhoi's, the rest are not in the area.

F-16 IN was rejected for a valid reason other than that it's a decent plane.

Come on, be honest, you cannot really expect SU-30MKI to take on the F-16 B-52. Super Sukhoi (with AESA upgrade?) maybe but we will speak about it when it happens. F-16 IN blows the competition away. However, the points India had are very valid for not choosing it.

Any confirmation or proof that Pakistan has bought HQ 9/FD 2000.

Nopes.....just my words

 

[perplexed]

You have nothing that can compete on par with F-16 Block 52 let alone Block 60 or Block 70 (India was offered Block 70 I think, not 60).

China is manufacturing all kinds of engines, just look up the W series of Jet engines. They have surprised us all time and again.



2 for 1 would be a serious waste, maybe 1 extra for 5 Jets? Anyway, no idea what was on the agenda.

And i will still be surprised if they can come up with a 5th gen engine by the end of this decade..

 

[Mav3rick]

Yeah right.. PAF needs your 12 hour service badly, in fact the whole of Pakistan might desperately need this 12 hour service.

I too prefer the 12 hour package from my dry cleaner. Sabere do shaam ko delivery lo.

I didn't know you considered your AF to be dry cleaners. Well, the way they have been left hanging on the MMRCA deal for the past 12 years, they must be 'dried' cleaners!

 

[illusion8]

Come on, be honest, you cannot really expect SU-30MKI to take on the F-16 B-52. Super Sukhoi (with AESA upgrade?) maybe but we will speak about it when it happens. F-16 IN blows the competition away. However, the points India had are very valid for not choosing it.





Nopes.....just my words

yeah I expect an SU 30 MKI to take on a couple of F 16's. Super Sukhoi's will be an overkill to be frank. :

"Just my words"