Russia-India Marching Ahead

[Sergi]

China supported India for UNSC seat.
But for us national interest is our priority .And Russia is still remain as our national priority .Due to the deep links between the two nation.

That was a PR statement from ex-Chinese leader while he was on visit in India. Few weeks later he avoided to commnet on direct question.
You are welcome to prove me wrong

 

[Sergi]

Very true.

Unless and until both countries can sit down and understand the global realities to address the issues mutually, it won't change any equation no matter what the trade equation is.

Border issue is very sensitive in both countries. So its unlikely to be solved unless one party decide to let go for other benefit. Not likely to happen.

European Union's strongest economy, aka Germany, is close to US. I may be putting this politely but without US nod, Germans won't even move an inch forward or backward. The US is powerful enough to make Europeans bow down financially and thus weaken any third party stand. Remember Iran's attempts at using Euros?

The best alternative is to increase manufacturing, reduce taxation in manufacturing and try to prop INR as a trading currency.

You didn't get my point. All countries trying to replace dollar tried to push their own currencies. It always failed and will fail till that country can do trade with minimum half of the developed world. So Russia China and India separately will fail in this attempt. But think if Russia , China and India started trading in Euros !!!!! Why in hell Germany will oppose it ??? They will be the biggest profiteers from that. It will break US monopoly over world finance system and transfer it to EU. And Union is ideal for this job than a single country.
Euro was launched for the reason to have an common currency for Europe. EU leaders will welcome this move.

It requires more than military and economic muscle to achieve that.

Actually it only require USA to lose its current position in world order.

 

[Ragnar]

Their enemies are not our enemies, and their allies are not our allies. Other than that conundrum, Russia is a provider of technology and equipment which no other nation would provide to us right now, so we should stand by them, but gain more as Sancho pointed out. It is also better for us to stay non-aligned rather be forced to choose between revisionist powers and status quo powers.

 

[Sahasranama]

- the biggest market for their defence products

Yes, we used to be a captive market. Not any more. At last count we were the biggest market for US defence products.

- one potentially big market for their civil aircraft devision (one reason why they offer us to jointly produce the regional airliner they have developed)

No one believe that. No civilian a/c operator is foolish enough to buy Russian a/c for their fleet. Only the IAF used to buy it due to fear or sanctions.

- the only reliable country that they can jointly develop arms and techs with

Except for Brahmos which we were lucky enough to buy due to the then economic condition, there is ZERO reliability of Russians as far as joint development is concerned. Even for Brahmos the russians goaded us into the deal as they were afraid of losing the scientists and tech to China.

- the most reliable political partner that Russia has

Not any more. As of TODAY its China.

- one of the biggest markets for Russian energy supply

NOPE. China again.

Just to name a few, Russia is not the Soviet Union and needs partners, that's why they tried to open up in the last few years with a forward policy towards Europe, similar to our look East policy. But at the end of the day, India remains to be the best choice for them on so many levels!

All your examples are wrong. Our ONLY value is that we have a population equal to that of china and we border china. But after Russians have decided on China as their future partner, we are now delegated to second place. Welcome to TODAY. The past is history, stop quoting history as the future.

 

[sancho]

Yes, we used to be a captive market. Not any more. At last count we were the biggest market for US defence products.

No we are not, we are only paying high prices for their arms and techs, but the big number procurements are still Russian origined! We only buy 12 x C130, while the initial order for MTA is 45, we buy 22 x Apaches and 15 x Chinooks, compared to over a 100 x Mi 17s, 42 x more MKIs, 29 x more Mig 29Ks vs ZERO US fighters...

Except for Brahmos which we were lucky enough to buy due to the then economic condition, there is ZERO reliability of Russians as far as joint development is concerned.

Lol, that's why we went to FGFA and MTA, why we work with them on joint Sat navigation, Space and other areas?

Not any more. As of TODAY its China.

Not really, name a single joint defence development they have with China? They don't even sell the same level of techs to China as they offer us.

All your examples are wrong.

Only because you want them to be wrong? Wake up please and look at the realities, our relation to Russia is constantly growing and we now have the chance to take even more leverage and move things even more to our interests. While our relations to the US are stagnating over several political issues, the lack of ToT and offsets, which is why we limit our procurements from the US to specific arms and techs, while Russia, Israel and Europe remains to be our prefered partners.

 

[sancho]

Euro was launched for the reason to have an common currency for Europe. EU leaders will welcome this move.

And Germany is the country that benefitted the most from it, especially since it made exporting products within the EU much easier. But the Euro itself has grown over the years in importance and as a counter to the Dollar, now with stricter rules for the participating countries, it will even get stronger and when you look at Europes aviation or defence sector joining more and more to counter US giants, you see that they are already pushing forward to counter the US on economical and defence related levels, the problem as we can see in the Ukraine is the political dependance of Europe to the US. Sooner or later Europe has to move even closer, to follow jointed interests maybe even with a joint military force.

 

[rockstarIN]

are highly mistaken buddy. Name a single other nation that can provide us with the same array of arms and techs for air force, navy and army, in joint developments?
There is none! The Israelis covers radar, avionics or weapons, or armored vehicles mainly, but neither can they provide us aircrafts, naval vessels. The French sadly showed us, that even the selection of Rafale is not enough for them to look forward to joint developments, the US are not even close to be seriously considered for licence production, so who is left at that level?

Which is quite true, but not to our expectations in the current era. India is positioned well in the international scenario compared to last one or two decades and are able to buy good stuff around the world. As a long term ally and buyer of Russian weapon systems, we expect that they understand our eagerness to get a good chunk of the military technology in house. There are delays from their side in as well and not up to our expectations for a raising India.

And Germany is the country that benefitted the most from it, especially since it made exporting products within the EU much easier. But the Euro itself has grown over the years in importance and as a counter to the Dollar, now with stricter rules for the participating countries, it will even get stronger and when you look at Europes aviation or defence sector joining more and more to counter US giants, you see that they are already pushing forward to counter the US on economical and defence related levels, the problem as we can see in the Ukraine is the political dependance of Europe to the US. Sooner or later Europe has to move even closer, to follow jointed interests maybe even with a joint military force.

Which I do not observe, the Euro countries are more and more going to US camp in terms of military technology except France. See the condition of EF now.

 

[Sahasranama]

No we are not, we are only paying high prices for their arms and techs, but the big number procurements are still Russian origined! We only buy 12 x C130, while the initial order for MTA is 45, we buy 22 x Apaches and 15 x Chinooks, compared to over a 100 x Mi 17s, 42 x more MKIs, 29 x more Mig 29Ks vs ZERO US fighters...

As I said, we were a captive customer

Stop weaving fantasies of MTA. So far its still born.

Lol, that's why we went to FGFA and MTA, why we work with them on joint Sat navigation, Space and other areas?

LOL. Is that why India has made ZERO progress on FGFA and MTA ? .......... ya, we have seen how the cryo engine development progressed thanks to Russian "help". And what other space areas do we work with them on ? Russia has a FAR greater joint space development program with Europe and USA.

Not really, name a single joint defence development they have with China? They don't even sell the same level of techs to China as they offer us.

It does not exist because for large parts China does not need Russia. Its China which has been consistently backing Russia politically in recent times. THAT is called political support. No buying ammunitions.

Only because you want them to be wrong? Wake up please and look at the realities, our relation to Russia is constantly growing and we now have the chance to take even more leverage and move things even more to our interests. While our relations to the US are stagnating over several political issues, the lack of ToT and offsets, which is why we limit our procurements from the US to specific arms and techs, while Russia, Israel and Europe remains to be our prefered partners.

Our Relationship with Russia is actually Shrinking in % terms. ........ how does that look like 'growth' to you ? Our relationship with the US has actually grown in % terms and in real value terms. These are FACTS. It does not change just because you don't like them.

See how you are now forced to sneak in Israel and Europe to make Russia look good ?

 

[sancho]

Which is quite true, but not to our expectations in the current era. India is positioned well in the international scenario compared to last one or two decades and are able to buy good stuff around the world.

That's the crucial part! In the past, the west offered us only things they approved to sell to us, today they offer us basically anything to buy that is on their card.
Russia gave us anything they had for years, but now has moved on beyond the buyer - seller relationship, to a partner relationship. A level that the western countries, especially the US will find hard to counter and the rejection of F35 in favour for FGFA is proving that.
So we might be able to "buy" more today, but Russia is still the best choice for arms and techs, because of their partnerships offers and the unique level of techs and weapons they are ready to provide (carriers, SSNs...). As long as this advantage doesn't change (and I hoped the French can make a difference here, but it doesn't seems that way), the Russians will remain our prefered choice.

Which I do not observe, the Euro countries are more and more going to US camp in terms of military technology except France. See the condition of EF now.

Not at all! NH90, A400, nEUROn, METEOR...all examples for joint European developments in competition to US alternatives. In fact European fighters will soon use mainly European weapons, compared to a fully fledged US weapon pack in the past and if you look at the ratio of US fighters in European Air Forces in the past (F16s and F18s) compared to today and in the future, it is clearly turned towards Eurocanards, while only the F35 is coming in as a US fighter. This trend will only keep growing and it is already expected, that the next European fighter project might be led by France and UK jointly and most likely will include other European countries as well.

The condition of the EF has to do with bad planing of the project and at that time a lot of ego, but as said, the same countries that worked against eachother back than are joining for more and more defence related projects today. If BAE would have been included into Airbus (blocked by Germany), it would had made an even faster change in Europe.

Our Relationship with Russia is actually Shrinking in % terms. ........ how does that look like 'growth' to you ?

As I already showed the opposite is the case! The major share of our defence products is and will remain Russian origined and you can't even counter that fact, other than with poor distractions on coming projects, while even the current MKI, Mig and Mi procurements are surpassing US orders in numbers, share within IAF and importance by far.