Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi PAK FA

[SQ8]

Sir, you mean that IR signatures of both are still quite high compared to say F 22 and therefore vulnerable to heat seeker technology missiles.

Quite high. The F-22's nozzles dissipate heat whilst those of the PAK-FA and Rafale do not. The PAK-FA is neither as stealthy nor as advanced as the F-22 but it is designed with a different mindset in mind. It is focused on 2 PAK-FA's being able to take down one F-22. They have some frontal stealth so the idea is to somehow make it to the merge where they can employ their heat seeking missiles.

However, by the time the PAK-FA enters serial production.. the F-22 of that time will be even more deadly. There is large amount of empty space and excess power in the F-22 just waiting for upgrades.

 

[anant_s]

they both can dance it out like some telegu fim stars.

Well Sir, if the planes were designed by directors from Telugu movies, they will belong to something like Generation 365487

 

[SQ8]

But that is the American scenario.. for India.. the FGFA will offer the capability to enforce air superiority over the west within a week of the conflict and in case of a two front war.. be able to fight off the Chinese for the limited time where it can provide effective cover to ground forces.

 

[anant_s]

Quite high. The F-22's nozzles dissipate heat whilst those of the PAK-FA and Rafale do not. The PAK-FA is neither as stealthy nor as advanced as the F-22 but it is designed with a different mindset in mind. It is focused on 2 PAK-FA's being able to take down one F-22. They have some frontal stealth so the idea is to somehow make it to the merge where they can employ their heat seeking missiles.

However, by the time the PAK-FA enters serial production.. the F-22 of that time will be even more deadly. There is large amount of empty space and excess power in the F-22 just waiting for upgrades.

i read in Dr. Karlo Kopp's analysis (Australian Air power) and he mentions that PAK FA is more a competitor to F 35 rather than F 22 which remains peerless.
and probably its this lack of any true competition to F22 that US is satisfied with a smallish fleet of F22.

 

[Ice Cube]

Well Sir, if the planes were designed by directors from Telugu movies, they will belong to something like Generation 365487
View attachment 281519

 

[dadeechi]

i won't compare LCA with FGFA. the reason is LCA specifications were issued in 1985 or so and for reasons well known, the delivery of platform came a quarter of century later. during this time, a lot had changed for which i believe IAF wasn't completely wrong if revising its requirements.
In case of FGFA however, things are less thaan a decade old and in case there are changes or relaxations required, developing agency can actually handover some prototypes, for IAF to understand.
But reading the original post, to me it looks, that there are significant performance gaps, from what IAF asked, prompting them to be conscious and take a cautious approach.
and its correct because once we commit money on development, its important we ask for results. Also note that with F 35 A/B/C program, despite cost and time over run, participating nations haven't revised specifications. Let us not do so too, IMHO.

IAF is least interested in PAK-FA/FAGA just like they never were interested in MIG-29s or SU-30s. That is a fact. They loved mirages and now the RAFALEs. They will only get their senses back once Russia sells a squadron of PAK-FAs to Pakistan.

 

[anant_s]

But that is the American scenario.. for India.. the FGFA will offer the capability to enforce air superiority over the west within a week of the conflict and in case of a two front war.. be able to fight off the Chinese for the limited time where it can provide effective cover to ground forces.

True.
i was a bit scared to bring it here (for the trolling it would invite), but in terms of planning a hypothetical scenario, FGFA should be compared to J 20 and J 31, for that is only possible combat opponents both planes are likely to see.
and with limited info available, i think both match closely.
And sir, will it be possible for you to make a comparision wrt AWACS power influencing VLO fighter combat scenario.
Systems like S400 are said to be able to detect and engage stealth fighter, but how does airborne radar power compare here?

 

[SQ8]

True.
i was a bit scared to bring it here (for the trolling it would invite), but in terms of planning a hypothetical scenario, FGFA should be compared to J 20 and J 31, for that is only possible combat opponents both planes are likely to see.
and with limited info available, i think both match closely.

Info is not limited as such, but neither is nationalistic bias. Hence very few can be accurate in their analysis of each.

 

[BountyHunter]

Manoeuvrability is long going dead. The Rafale can be given thrust vectoring like the PAK-FA and they both can dance it out like some telegu fim stars. However, a mig-21 armed with a AA-11 Archer at high speed can come in and blow both of them out of the sky and run away shooting flares.. and survive.
Modern missiles and systems are making manoeuvrability more of an after thought than an actual requirement. What is now required of fighters is low observability in the radar and thermal spectrum. The rafale and PAK-FA more, manage that in the radar spectrum but lack it in the thermal range.

Telugu *

 

[SQ8]

Telugu *

Telegu and there is not a damn thing you can do about it just like my telugu classmates could not when us "northerners" teamed up on them with "IILLLLEYYY"

 

[Perpendicular]

Take for an example the new engine under development and testing, without which performance is going to be under par anyway. That might be one of the few issues but still that shouldn't stop IAF to start kindergarten process.
Capabilites are important and they are ever increasing in demand but so does the platform, which is going to deliver them in the battlefield.

 

[SQ8]

i read in Dr. Karlo Kopp's analysis (Australian Air power) and he mentions that PAK FA is more a competitor to F 35 rather than F 22 which remains peerless.
and probably its this lack of any true competition to F22 that US is satisfied with a smallish fleet of F22.

It is but Carlo Kopp is biased too. One has to know the history of each analyst before accepting what they say. Carlo Kopp was spurned by the RAAF for a business proposal that went to the F-35 instead. So he hates all things American except the F-22 and needlessly exaggerates their capabilities just because he studied the subject.

I always encourage everyone here to take twenty narratives before settling on giving an opinion, or if you wish to follow an opinion blindly; dont expect all to agree with it.

 

[anant_s]

IAF is least interested in PAK-FA/FAGA just like they never were interested in MIG-29s or SU-30s. That is a fact. They loved mirages and now the RAFALEs. They will only get their senses back once Russia sells a squadron of PAK-FAs to Pakistan.

I'm not sure IAF was against Su 30 ever. Infact it was IAF that was against Russian proposal of selling MiG 31.
@MilSpec sir i recall u telling a story on same about then ACM Sareen. can u share more?

 

[BountyHunter]

Telegu and there is not a damn thing you can do about it just like my telugu classmates could not when us "northerners" teamed up on them with "IILLLLEYYY"

I'm sure whatever you have to say can wait until you're smarter.

 

[Chika_Pika]

Russia offers new, cheaper deal on Sukhoi fighter jets
The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.
Written by Sushant Singh
New Delhi Updated: Dec 23, 2015, 3:56

Written by Sushant Singh | New Delhi | Updated: December 23, 2015 3:56 am

PM Narendra Modi will leave for Moscow today.
Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets to India under the joint fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) initiative.
Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK FA fighters. The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.
India and Russia had signed an inter-governmental agreement to co-develop and co-produce the FGFA in 2007, which was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010. Modelled on the successful Brahmos missile project, the project involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The overall FGFA project cost for making 127 single-seat fighters in India has been estimated to be around $30 billion.
The final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each for prototype development and production, has not been signed between India and Russia so far. Meanwhile, Russia has gone ahead with the development of PAK FA and claims that it will enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2016, and enter serial production in 2017.
“Now that they already have the fighter, the Russians have made a revised offer to us. For $3.7 billion, they will give us all the technological know-how of making the fighter. We will also get three prototypes from them in that amount,” a senior defence ministry official said.
But the Indian Air Force (IAF) remains opposed to the idea. A senior IAF official said, “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”
Sources said the Russian offer is driven by Moscow’s cash crunch and lack of firm orders with its defence industry.

Russia offers new, cheaper deal on Sukhoi fighter jets | The Indian Express

LOL, IAF really acting like a spoilt kid