Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi PAK FA

[dadeechi]

Russia offers new, cheaper deal on Sukhoi fighter jets
The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.
Written by Sushant Singh
New Delhi Updated: Dec 23, 2015, 3:56

Written by Sushant Singh | New Delhi | Updated: December 23, 2015 3:56 am

PM Narendra Modi will leave for Moscow today.
Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets to India under the joint fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) initiative.
Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK FA fighters. The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.
India and Russia had signed an inter-governmental agreement to co-develop and co-produce the FGFA in 2007, which was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010. Modelled on the successful Brahmos missile project, the project involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The overall FGFA project cost for making 127 single-seat fighters in India has been estimated to be around $30 billion.
The final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each for prototype development and production, has not been signed between India and Russia so far. Meanwhile, Russia has gone ahead with the development of PAK FA and claims that it will enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2016, and enter serial production in 2017.
“Now that they already have the fighter, the Russians have made a revised offer to us. For $3.7 billion, they will give us all the technological know-how of making the fighter. We will also get three prototypes from them in that amount,” a senior defence ministry official said.
But the Indian Air Force (IAF) remains opposed to the idea. A senior IAF official said, “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”
Sources said the Russian offer is driven by Moscow’s cash crunch and lack of firm orders with its defence industry.

Russia offers new, cheaper deal on Sukhoi fighter jets | The Indian Express

 

[H.B.]

FGFA deal will be done,one way or the other. Bargaining phase is on from both sides before Modi visit. Like it or not, India has no other choice regarding 5th gen heavy fighter. Russia, I suspect, has no one else to pump money into T-50 now that China is developing its own 5-gen.

So, yes the deal will take place and in substantial numbers.

 

[The_Sidewinder]

FGFA deal will be done,one way or the other. Bargaining phase is on from both sides before Modi visit. Like it or not, India has no other choice regarding 5th gen heavy fighter. Russia, I suspect, has no one else to pump money into T-50 now that China is developing its own 5-gen.

So, yes the deal will take place and in substantial numbers.

Agreed

 

[H.B.]

Agreed

I have a theory. India will go for 9 sqds of FGFA/T-50 in line with original number (approx 154). Out of that 3 sqd will be off the shelf T-50 and remaining will be FGFA. Win- win for both.
Let's see how it goes

 

[Ice Cube]

nice, with things the way they are for Russia Vis-à-vis the situations in Syria and Ukraine with the EU/US, this is an excellent time to consolidate military relations. S-400, Pak-FA, Akula lease (hopefully) .. likey

 

[Pulsar]

But the Indian Air Force (IAF) remains opposed to the idea. A senior IAF official said, “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”
Sources said the Russian offer is driven by Moscow’s cash crunch and lack of firm orders with its defence industry.

Russia offers new, cheaper deal on Sukhoi fighter jets | The Indian Express

That's a lot of hot air. Silly arguments.

Firstly, the 5th gen FGFA flyaway cost is at par with the 4+gen Rafale. Secondly, the IAF should procure a couple off the shelf and put them through their paces to learn the PAK FA's capabilities. Or better still test the ac in Russia.

 

[anant_s]

would be interesting to note the difference between capabilities asked by IAF for FGFA and PAK FA (Pilot and WSO concept apart).
One important thing here is that if airframe design is now frozen, little would change in terms of RCS. Secondly the engine of the fighter is still not clear.
I suppose the one reason IAF is not confident about PAK FA is that FGFA incorporates several of its requirements that might be absent from PAK FA. the two models would broadly be same only in RCS and kinematic performance.
Now with Rafale deal providing a platform with near Generation 5 capabilities and vastly superior avionics, Russia might be feeling uneasy about India's comittment towards FGFA.
I guess the best course of action is not to fall for PAK FA immediately and allow platform to mature and remain strictly committed to original requirements for FGFA.

 

[fsayed]

Russia offers new, cheaper deal on Sukhoi fighter jets
The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.
Written by Sushant Singh
New Delhi Updated: Dec 23, 2015, 3:56

Written by Sushant Singh | New Delhi | Updated: December 23, 2015 3:56 am

PM Narendra Modi will leave for Moscow today.
Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets to India under the joint fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) initiative.
Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK FA fighters. The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.
India and Russia had signed an inter-governmental agreement to co-develop and co-produce the FGFA in 2007, which was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010. Modelled on the successful Brahmos missile project, the project involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The overall FGFA project cost for making 127 single-seat fighters in India has been estimated to be around $30 billion.
The final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each for prototype development and production, has not been signed between India and Russia so far. Meanwhile, Russia has gone ahead with the development of PAK FA and claims that it will enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2016, and enter serial production in 2017.
“Now that they already have the fighter, the Russians have made a revised offer to us. For $3.7 billion, they will give us all the technological know-how of making the fighter. We will also get three prototypes from them in that amount,” a senior defence ministry official said.
But the Indian Air Force (IAF) remains opposed to the idea. A senior IAF official said, “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”
Sources said the Russian offer is driven by Moscow’s cash crunch and lack of firm orders with its defence industry.

Russia offers new, cheaper deal on Sukhoi fighter jets | The Indian Express

would be interesting to note the difference between capabilities asked by IAF for FGFA and PAK FA (Pilot and WSO concept apart).
One important thing here is that if airframe design is now frozen, little would change in terms of RCS. Secondly the engine of the fighter is still not clear.
I suppose the one reason IAF is not confident about PAK FA is that FGFA incorporates several of its requirements that might be absent from PAK FA. the two models would broadly be same only in RCS and kinematic performance.
Now with Rafale deal providing a platform with near Generation 5 capabilities and vastly superior avionics, Russia might be feeling uneasy about India's comittment towards FGFA.
I guess the best course of action is not to fall for PAK FA immediately and allow platform to mature and remain strictly committed to original requirements for FGFA.

That's a lot of hot air. Silly arguments.

Firstly, the 5th gen FGFA flyaway cost is at par with the 4+gen Rafale. Secondly, the IAF should procure a couple off the shelf and put them through their paces to learn the PAK FA's capabilities. Or better still test the ac in Russia.

@HariPrasad

Money is not the issue but TOT and capabilities of the aircraft is the main issue

 

[dadeechi]

@HariPrasad

Money is not the issue but TOT and capabilities of the aircraft is the main issue

I would guess that PAK-FA would better both SU-30 and SU-35. It will mature like any other platform. What is the alternative ? even if India opts for F-35 it would take atleast half a decade or more before India can get it's hands on the first one.

 

[anant_s]

@FrenchPilot @Oscar @Taygibay
Sirs,
Its premature to ask this but if one talks purely of avionics and air maneuverability, how do Rafale and PAK FA compare?
one argument that is made in A2A combat is that a machine that detects other machine first even by a few seconds has theoretically higher probability of emerging victorious.
However in real world things would depend also on
a. how late can a plane allow itself to get detected
b. its maneuverability
c. its defences
d. weapons it has
e. how effective is airborne AWACS support a plane has.

Sooner or later Radar manufacturers will develop techniques to detect VLO fighters and then if RCS advantage gets neutralized, will smaller but nimble fighters have advantage over costlier generation 5 fighters?

I would guess that PAK-FA would better both SU-30 and SU-35. It will mature like any other platform. What is the alternative ? even if India opts for F-35 it would take atleast half a decade or more before India can get it's hands on the first one.

i don't think India should consider F35 for airforce. FGFA is a far better fighter (atleast on paper simulations) and given time and energy already devoted, it should be persued further.
Only thing is the original specifications should not be diluted.

 

[anant_s]

I would like to add stealth Jets are only stealthy from below and front, if the opponent Jet fly higher it can detect stealth Jet like any other ordinary jet. And because of stealth design these Jets are less agile in dig fight only their main role is bombing ground targets to make they way for non-stealthy fighters.

well sir my knowledge is rather limited in this area, but i agree as you say that RCS of a fighter isn't same everywhere and therefore VLO isn't a guarantee for survival in every combat scenario.
if u recall an F 117 was once shot down by a Soviet era SAM over Bosnia and it was later found that the faceted panel plane, under wet conditions.
Long wavelength radars are said to be effective in detection of VLO planes and maybe more work is done in this area these days.

 

[dadeechi]

@FrenchPilot @Oscar @Taygibay
Sirs,
Its premature to ask this but if one talks purely of avionics and air maneuverability, how do Rafale and PAK FA compare?
one argument that is made in A2A combat is that a machine that detects other machine first even by a few seconds has theoretically higher probability of emerging victorious.
However in real world things would depend also on
a. how late can a plane allow itself to get detected
b. its maneuverability
c. its defences
d. weapons it has
e. how effective is airborne AWACS support a plane has.

Sooner or later Radar manufacturers will develop techniques to detect VLO fighters and then if RCS advantage gets neutralized, will smaller but nimble fighters have advantage over costlier generation 5 fighters?


i don't think India should consider F35 for airforce. FGFA is a far better fighter (atleast on paper simulations) and given time and energy already devoted, it should be persued further.
Only thing is the original specifications should not be diluted.

The issue is not about dilution of requirements but IAF wants FGFA with all it's requirements from day one. This is the same position that they have adopted for LCA too, Instead of supporting the project by validating the current state, providing feedback and plan training/strategies around the equipment. IAF is just being a bad user here.

 

[Perpendicular]

Even important than know how, considering we can't back out on this project, India should start sorting out spares availability of PAKFA along as well.
Has India been working on its own systems that it wants to put into this jet. Will be a good head start before they go into AMCA.

 

[SQ8]

@FrenchPilot @Oscar @Taygibay
Sirs,
Its premature to ask this but if one talks purely of avionics and air maneuverability, how do Rafale and PAK FA compare?
one argument that is made in A2A combat is that a machine that detects other machine first even by a few seconds has theoretically higher probability of emerging victorious.
However in real world things would depend also on
a. how late can a plane allow itself to get detected
b. its maneuverability
c. its defences
d. weapons it has
e. how effective is airborne AWACS support a plane has.

Sooner or later Radar manufacturers will develop techniques to detect VLO fighters and then if RCS advantage gets neutralized, will smaller but nimble fighters have advantage over costlier generation 5 fighters?


i don't think India should consider F35 for airforce. FGFA is a far better fighter (atleast on paper simulations) and given time and energy already devoted, it should be persued further.
Only thing is the original specifications should not be diluted.

Manoeuvrability is long going dead. The Rafale can be given thrust vectoring like the PAK-FA and they both can dance it out like some telegu fim stars. However, a mig-21 armed with a AA-11 Archer at high speed can come in and blow both of them out of the sky and run away shooting flares.. and survive.
Modern missiles and systems are making manoeuvrability more of an after thought than an actual requirement. What is now required of fighters is low observability in the radar and thermal spectrum. The rafale and PAK-FA more, manage that in the radar spectrum but lack it in the thermal range.

 

[anant_s]

The issue is not about dilution of requirements but IAF wants FGFA with all it's requirements from day one. This is the same position that they have adopted for LCA too, Instead of supporting the project by validating the current state, providing feedback and plan training/strategies around the equipment.

i won't compare LCA with FGFA. the reason is LCA specifications were issued in 1985 or so and for reasons well known, the delivery of platform came a quarter of century later. during this time, a lot had changed for which i believe IAF wasn't completely wrong if revising its requirements.
In case of FGFA however, things are less thaan a decade old and in case there are changes or relaxations required, developing agency can actually handover some prototypes, for IAF to understand.
But reading the original post, to me it looks, that there are significant performance gaps, from what IAF asked, prompting them to be conscious and take a cautious approach.
and its correct because once we commit money on development, its important we ask for results. Also note that with F 35 A/B/C program, despite cost and time over run, participating nations haven't revised specifications. Let us not do so too, IMHO.

Manoeuvrability is long going dead. The Rafale can be given thrust vectoring like the PAK-FA and they both can dance it out like some telegu fim stars. However, a mig-21 armed with a AA-11 Archer at high speed can come in and blow both of them out of the sky and run away shooting flares.. and survive.
Modern missiles and systems are making manoeuvrability more of an after thought than an actual requirement. What is now required of fighters is low observability in the radar and thermal spectrum. The rafale and PAK-FA more, manage that in the radar spectrum but lack it in the thermal range.

Sir, you mean that IR signatures of both are still quite high compared to say F 22 and therefore vulnerable to heat seeker technology missiles.