Russia gives a cold shoulder to India for the 5th generation fighter

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

Beyond the initial exploration, India hasn't put in any money or effort into the project - if that doesn't mean pulling out, what else does?? If Russia were to come around and accept Indian requirements/conditions things could change - but as is it's a no-go. Russia did come around every now and then with new proposals - reducing the price etc. Russia is realizing that India is not going to bend - so its up to Russia to bend. If they do, then its kiss-n-make-up time

I think the project is just put on hold, there is not formal declaration from both side, I do believe that Russia might come back to make some concessions but not as full TOT demanded by India, Russia will not bend so easily.

 

[Major 13625]

Actually India can easily afford F-35s who's price has fallen pretty drastically. In fact it would be cheaper than PAKFA/FGFA!!!

It will take 15 years for india if they want them, f 35 are meant to replace NATO f 16s and f 15s, production will be busy for making around 4000 f35s, they wont deliver u f35 so soon, and do u think NATO will give u TOT about f 35s

 

[Vertiti Scrutator]

It will take 15 years for india if they want them, f 35 are meant to replace NATO f 16s and f 15s, production will be busy for making around 4000 f35s, they wont deliver u f35 so soon, and do u think NATO will give u TOT about f 35s

F35s for $90 million a piece is a good deal - even without ToT!!
You're somewhat right about the production backlog - but may not be 15 years though. Not every NATO country will be that eager to retire their old jets and spend on new jets - most NATO countries are stingy and don't spend much on defense (a pet peeve of Trump's!!!)

 

[Airdef95]

Whatever @Hassan Guy . The problem for you guy is many places, S-400 alone is such a system can destroy entire PAF two times without even single MKI or Tejas flying. Americans fear this system for something.

Don't use the word 'fly' along with 'Tejas'. It hurts a lot.
By the way I'm glad India finally scared USA of its toys.

 

[Major 13625]

F35s for $90 million a piece is a good deal - even without ToT!!
You're somewhat right about the production backlog - but may not be 15 years though. Not every NATO country will be that eager to retire their old jets and spend on new jets - most NATO countries are stingy and don't spend much on defense (a pet peeve of Trump's!!!)

But its business Lockheed martin and NATO spend trillions of dollar in f35 they will start production soon and US will stop spare part productions of f16s and f15s to make them buy f35s and they have also spent millions of dollar on it, u must think twice if u want f 35s, probably china will go for 6th generation fighters when India get those f 35s.

 

[Vertiti Scrutator]

But its business Lockheed martin and NATO spend trillions of dollar in f35 they will start production soon and US will stop spare part productions of f16s and f15s to make them buy f35s and they have also spent millions of dollar on it, u must think twice if u want f 35s, probably china will go for 6th generation fighters when India get those f 35s.

Firstly, F16s spares production will not be stopped outright (Lockheed is even thinking of moving the spares production to India).
Secondly, India is not going to sign on to the F35 deal and wait for 15 years - any deal will have a delivery schedule built into it or its a no deal!!!

 

[Major 13625]

Firstly, F16s spares production will not be stopped outright (Lockheed is even thinking of moving the spares production to India).
Secondly, India is not going to sign on to the F35 deal and wait for 15 years - any deal will have a delivery schedule built into it or its a no deal!!!

so the conclusion is India wont buy f 35s! and those Russians knew it, so Russia will milk India as much as they can

 

[Vertiti Scrutator]

so the conclusion is India wont buy f 35s! and those Russians knew it, so Russia will milk India as much as they can

This conversation is going on for too long and in circles!! Let me try to put this to rest:

- Firstly India wasn't expecting FGFA (in its arsenal) until 2025-30.
- FGFA is based on Indian requirements, which India knows very well will take 6-8 years to design and test!!!
- PAKFA is something India has explicitly rejected - as India doesn't see it as a great value addition over its existing arsenal; especially not at the price that Russians want. (If Russians intend to sell PAKFA for $60 a piece - then its a different story). Upgrading India's Su-30MKI will bring it pretty close to PAKFA (AL-41F engines, AESA radar and a RAM coating)!!
- India is ready with money and a set of requirements. Russia can take it or leave it.
- India played similar hard ball on MTA project (transport aircraft), where Russians wanted to pass of some junk engines on a new airframe. India tried to negotiate and then officially wrote the obituary on that by quietly ordering French transport aircraft. So, Russians know that India is not bluffing!!!

What India would do, how Russia will or will not milk are all speculations - folks are flattering themselves by calling their own speculations as foregone conclusions!!!

 

[nang2]

the market of the 5th gen fighter jets hasn't become a buyer's market yet. so the words of "take it or leave it" are more meaningful if they come from the seller.

 

[Major 13625]

This conversation is going on for too long and in circles!! Let me try to put this to rest:

- Firstly India wasn't expecting FGFA (in its arsenal) until 2025-30.
- FGFA is based on Indian requirements, which India knows very well will take 6-8 years to design and test!!!
- PAKFA is something India has explicitly rejected - as India doesn't see it as a great value addition over its existing arsenal; especially not at the price that Russians want. (If Russians intend to sell PAKFA for $60 a piece - then its a different story). Upgrading India's Su-30MKI will bring it pretty close to PAKFA (AL-41F engines, AESA radar and a RAM coating)!!
- India is ready with money and a set of requirements. Russia can take it or leave it.
- India played similar hard ball on MTA project (transport aircraft), where Russians wanted to pass of some junk engines on a new airframe. India tried to negotiate and then officially wrote the obituary on that by quietly ordering French transport aircraft. So, Russians know that India is not bluffing!!!

What India would do, how Russia will or will not milk are all speculations - folks are flattering themselves by calling their own speculations as foregone conclusions!!!

U must understand you have only two ways in this regard 1. development of you own 5th gen or 2. go for Russian 5th gen, if u want them within 10 years.

 

[Vertiti Scrutator]

U must understand you have only two ways in this regard 1. development of you own 5th gen or 2. go for Russian 5th gen, if u want them within 10 years.

Both those options are being worked on.(AMCA is India's own effort to develop a 5th gen stealth aircraft - expected in fly in about 6 years, and inducted in about 10 years - this effort will go on irrespective of FGFA fruitioning).
The third option is F35!

the market of the 5th gen fighter jets hasn't become a buyer's market yet. so the words of "take it or leave it" are more meaningful if they come from the seller.

You're absolutely right. The seller of a 5th gen fighter can call the shots; but you're still missing the BIG point that India does not consider PAKFA a true 5th gen fighter
If Russia were to be calling the shots on this, they wouldn't be begging India to buy the PAKFAs from them. In fact at one point Putin even conditioned the sale of S400 missile system on India agreeing to buy PAKFAs - India still didn't budge. So, you tell me who's calling the shots here!!!

 

[terranMarine]

Both those options are being worked on.(AMCA is India's own effort to develop a 5th gen stealth aircraft - expected in fly in about 6 years, and inducted in about 10 years - this effort will go on irrespective of FGFA fruitioning).
The third option is F35!


You're absolutely right. The seller of a 5th gen fighter can call the shots; but you're still missing the BIG point that India does not consider PAKFA a true 5th gen fighter
If Russia were to be calling the shots on this, they wouldn't be begging India to buy the PAKFAs from them. In fact at one point Putin even conditioned the sale of S400 missile system on India agreeing to buy PAKFAs - India still didn't budge. So, you tell me who's calling the shots here!!!

Maybe Putin need to tell Modi to bend up further, adding more pressure might do the trick
Seriously you believe India will completely abandon Russia and start buying F-35 and missile defense system? It's gonna cost India a lot of money switching platform.

 

[Vertiti Scrutator]

Maybe Putin need to tell Modi to bend up further, adding more pressure might do the trick
Seriously you believe India will completely abandon Russia and start buying F-35 and missile defense system? It's gonna cost India a lot of money switching platform.

India has a dual strategy. Try to get the best that's out there and simultaneously try to develop an indigenous versions. The indigenous missile defense system is also coming up nicely - India already halved the S400 systems that it intended to buy from Russia (same with FGFA - if ever Russia comes around to co-developing it).
US has offered THAAD; Israel's missile defense is another alternative. But the emphasis is to get the local products ready ASAP!!
Again we're just speculating about what exactly will happen in the future. But India does have options!! Russia's own defense budget is shrinking and exports vanishing (with China going mostly indigenous and India going partly indigenous and partly with other vendors) - so the more intransigent Russia acts the more business they'll lose!!

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

You're absolutely right. The seller of a 5th gen fighter can call the shots; but you're still missing the BIG point that India does not consider PAKFA a true 5th gen fighter
If Russia were to be calling the shots on this, they wouldn't be begging India to buy the PAKFAs from them. In fact at one point Putin even conditioned the sale of S400 missile system on India agreeing to buy PAKFAs - India still didn't budge. So, you tell me who's calling the shots here!!!

Even PAKFA is not considered as 5th gen fighter by India, do you really believe that Russia gonna sell India the PAKFA that Russian air force will operate or more likely the downgrade export version India will get. India don't have much leverage to play hardball with Russia because it has oil and gas to compensate the financial lost from India, one contract deal with China will get them enough of money to go alone with FAKFA.

 

[Vertiti Scrutator]

Even PAKFA is not considered as 5th gen fighter by India, do you really believe that Russia gonna sell India the PAKFA that Russian air force will operate or more likely the downgrade export version India will get. India don't have much leverage to play hardball with Russia because it has oil and gas to compensate the financial lost from India, one contract deal with China will get them enough of money to go alone with FAKFA.

Don't know why exactly this argument is still continuing. The facts are so clear!! India has effectively pulled out - it hasn't put in a penny into the program since the last 7 years (since it contributed some money to the preliminary design effort)!!

Don't understand the statements like 'India cannot play hardball', or 'India has to buy PAKFA', when it has clearly not engaged in the project for the last 5 years (since the prelim design was complete!!!).

Russia cares about the loss or not is Russia's problem. India cares about what it needs and is sticking to it!! That's all!! Russia is clearly trying to woo India by reducing the price etc. but still is of no use until the product requirements are met!!