Russia Competes With China for Arms Sales to Pakistan

[Haroon Baloch]

I don't remember any US sanctions on Pakistan in the 1970s. If anything, Nixon was very anti-Indra Gandhi and sought Pakistan's help in improving US relations with China in the 70s. The deterioration point can be traced back to the Carter Admin (1977-1981). Carter reversed Nixon's policy towards India & set out to improve bilateral relations. But he too did not impose any sanctions on Pakistan. Simington Amendment & Pressler Amendment that made it difficult for Pakistan to acquire conventional weapons from the US in the 1980s and 1990s was a legislative restriction on US President not sanctions on Pakistan.

In 1970s Bhutto sought to improve relations with the USSR, which was going pretty well. Soviets established the Steel Mill in Karachi & decided not to veto a resolution on Kashmir in the UN (need confirmation). Had Bhutto not been disposed of relations with Russia today might have been radically different. The level relations we are aiming for in the future actually could have been achieved somewhere in the past.

I don't know if the Soviets offered any major weapon system in the 1970s. In the 1980s we were in direct conflict with them in Afghanistan. From 1965 to up until 1981 PAF had sought the French Mirages instead of US fighters. Mirage induction was going relatively smooth and it set well with the PAF. We bought F-7s in the late 1980s & early to mid-1990s (correct me if I am wrong), so the choice of it had less to do with our relations with the Soviets, or the quality of their product, & more to do with the US' cancellation of F-16 sales & Pakistan seeking to plug in gaps.

I was wrong. I mixed up 2 difference events, my bad. After the Pressler Amendment was passed, the U.S. placed sanctions and an arms embargo on Pakistan on 6 October 1990 & mid-1994 it was reported that the Russian manufacturers Sukhoi and Mikoyan were offering the Su-27 and MiG-29 but PAF opted for Mirage 2000 instead.

 

[SABRE]

I was wrong. I mixed up 2 difference events, my bad. After the Pressler Amendment was passed, the U.S. placed sanctions and an arms embargo on Pakistan on 6 October 1990 & mid-1994 it was reported that the Russian manufacturers Sukhoi and Mikoyan were offering the Su-27 and MiG-29 but Pakistan opted for Mirage 2000 instead.

It alright.

Do you have a source for Russian offer?

 

[airomerix]

Ever heard of rafale?
.

Ever heard of numbers '36'?

There is a good reason why IAF has not placed a full blown order of 126 jets YET. Before India takes on west as its primary fighter supplier. The line has to be drawn. Its a big dip for Russia's market in this case.

 

[Haroon Baloch]

It alright.

Do you have a source for Russian offer?

It was reported in Flight global.

RUSSIAN DESIGN bureau Sukhoi and Dassault of France are battling to supply advanced combat aircraft to Pakistan. Pakistan will host visits by both Russian and French teams on 27 November. Despite a visit to France by Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto earlier this month, the expected announcement clinching the sale of Dassault Mirage 2000-5s to Pakistan was not forthcoming. The visit of a high-level Russian delegation to Pakistan, to discuss the potential sale of the Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker, is viewed in some quarters as an attempt to gain a better financial deal from France for a Mirage sale. According to Pakistani defence minister Aftab Shaban Mirani, however, the modest cost of the proposed Sukhoi package makes its consideration essential. The proposed Mirage sale has also met with some resistance from the French finance ministry, as well as its foreign-traderelations division. The Russian offer marks the latest twist in Pakistan's attempts to bolster its front-line fighter fleet. The US Government blocked the sale of further Lockheed F-16s, in protest at Pakistan's nuclear-weapons programme, forcing the country to look elsewhere to boost its combat fleet. Pakistan is interested in acquiring up to 40 aircraft and has recently asked Washington either to release the F-16 order, or return the large deposit already paid by Islamabad. Dassault claims: "Pakistan's interest in the Mirage 2000-5 is real and high, but financial problems are there. We're still in the race." Pakistan is not the only country in the region which is interested in Sukhoi aircraft. India is looking at the Su-30 strike-fighter development of the Flanker.

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1994/1994 - 2857.html?search=Pakistan F-7

 

[TsAr]

Has anyone given a thought that USA would put sanctions upon any country who would buy weapon systems from Russia involving significant amount.

 

[princefaisal]

Pantsir, S-350 Vityaz & T-14 Armata tanks should be procured from Russia

 

[PakShaheen79]

So much hoopla on a news item which clearly lack any official confirmation. But debating on the prospects remains a good idea any ways. From a cursory look at the story it seems to be yet an other attempt by the Russian establishment to Keep India away from the US (obviously with no significant success). During last few years, Indians have inducted number of American systems and are going to induct far more in coming years. P-8Is, C-130Js, CH-47s, etc. are front line force multipliers and soon Apaches will join the club. F-21 or F-35 is definitely going to get inducted as well sooner or later. Meaning, Indian are investing not only in American systems they are also developing (read replacing Russian) infrastructure for new platforms.

Now, keeping in view the above factors, one can see Russian share in big Indian market has been and is going to reduce further. S-400 might be the last strategic purchase of New Delhi from Moscow. Now Russian establishment is certainly forced to look for new markets (it must be remembered that many of the Middle Eastern markets of Russian military hardware have already gone like Libya, Iraq, Syria etc. and now lost of Indian market must have put extra pressure on Kermlin to look into Pakistan's market). Sale of Mi-35s can be considered a beginning in that direction though both parties are very cautious at this stage and understandably so ... Islamabad needs Russian technologies ... this is our strategic interest and must be followed. It will help us get our hands on many sub-systems which clearly China (currently ) cannot provide like Advanced Turbofan engines. If we can ask for technology transfer of such system along with buying couple of Squadron of MIG or Sukois, I think it will be completely worth it as it will solve our long term challenge of finding a power plant solution for Project AZM and next variants of JF-17s. Apart from it, PAF is in dire need to upgrade its tactical and strategic lift fleet. Number of C-130s are never going to grow but our needs are bound to (with new corp being raised under Souther Command), that is again our strategic interest and we must follow it. Chinese will understand our choices if we made them rationally and intelligently. We inducted Mi-35s but have not decided about Z-10s ... Chinese have been given a proper feedback so Beijing has no problem with PA's decision. Avoiding a competition between Russia and China is also necessary. Pakistan must not look at Russia for big priced items, go to China for those but don't miss out if we can get sub-systems from Russia which are critical for our own projects.

 

[SABRE]

Has anyone given a thought that USA would put sanctions upon any country who would buy weapon systems from Russia involving significant amount.

Such a reaction or threat from the US has never come before until now, or at least no example of it comes to my mind. They would usually employ coercion tactics behind doors. If they would fail they would use non-cooperation tactics like creating economic hurdles, not selling American weapons, etc, but not all out sanctions. Trump is setting new precedence, however.

 

[Trailer23]

Russia playing India!

Or Pakistan playing the US.

Either way, if news breaks out - even (if) its a false flag, both India & the US will be on a backfoot.

No jets... We need S-400 from Russia

Why has the S-400 gained such popularity as of late? The Patriot can offer (pretty much) the same. The only major advantage the S-400 has is that its Radar can detect the F-35 (JSF). Does India have the F-35? No. Then why do we get tangled in pipedreams of things that make the news...thinking that it will make us invincible. We have no use for the S-400... But if Russia wants to gift us the S-400 if we buy their jets - i'm down with that.

Countries preferred Sukhois over Migs due to built quality issues, even sold new M were returned and Sukhois we're ordered due to bad built quality of Migs, even India is facing issues with new Migs.

Those were MiG-29's. As for India - they just wanted to have something Western in their inventory.

Has anyone given a thought that USA would put sanctions upon any country who would buy weapon systems from Russia involving significant amount.

The Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (Caatsa) was introduced in 2017 to target Russia, Iran and North Korea with economic and political sanctions. It also prohibits any country from signing defence deals with these nations.

Read about the Algerian mig procument its the exact case study he is referring to.

Algerians had a pretty big fleet of fulcrums but ongoing quality quirks forced them to trade those for a smaller qty of su30mk jets

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/algeria-returns-39faulty39-mig-29s-221771/

What part of the article did you focus on more? The Title or the Content?

Did you miss out on the part where it stated:

"...The aircraft are part of a package for 34 MiG-29SMT/UBTs"

"...the Algerian air force found that some "new" equipment actually dated back to the early 1990s, when the aircraft had been manufactured."

And when they say early 90's, they probably mean late 80's, because after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia went through an Economic Crisis, so I doubt there were any MiG's built around that period.

 

[GriffinsRule]

T

Stop printing paper money; get every citizen a small smartphone capable of digital payments. All sales / purchases recorded through a data center and FBR increases tax collection by multiples of magnitudes.

Thats just sales tax, we need people to pay their income taxes

 

[zulu]

Any more info of this new southern corp?

new corp being raised under Souther Command

 

[PakShaheen79]

Any more info of this new southern corp?

I quoted what I heard from FM Quraishi today on media. Don't know if he confused new units in FC Baluchistan with new corp because if that statement is true, then it will be a para-military force like FC not new Corp.

 

[Trailer23]

You know, I hate it when people talk sh!t about a beautiful aircraft. I'm certain that we're not getting the MiG-35 or any other Russian Defence System. But, that doesn't mean that one should deny what it can bring to any Air Force.

 

[gangsta_rap]

What part of the article did you focus on more? The Title or the Content?

screw off

 

[mingle]

Any more info of this new southern corp?

It's for Iranian border I read good move we need full flege presence at south with more airbases border fencing.

I quoted what I heard from FM Quraishi today on media. Don't know if he confused new units in FC Baluchistan with new corp because if that statement is true, then it will be a para-military force like FC not new Corp.

I believe new corp check fakere Alam tweet. Plus we should need to change posture at western border too go inside and hit the enemy tell them u not safe here too.

Such a reaction or threat from the US has never come before until now, or at least no example of it comes to my mind. They would usually employ coercion tactics behind doors. If they would fail they would use non-cooperation tactics like creating economic hurdles, not selling American weapons, etc, but not all out sanctions. Trump is setting new precedence, however.

Trump already put India on notice for S400 waiver buy our F16s if u want certificate things not good on Dehli side too let's see how it Pan out on theior side.