Russia Admits China Illegally Copied Its Fighter

[metalfalcon]

J11 B is like the F7 in case. both are dumpd russians
But Russia cant suceedd in the case as it seems

Sorry to Indins and PAk at atime see no intersts in J11B. It is not a good as J10

Dude with all due respect J-11 is Far Better than J-10.

 

[hj786]

May i ask how did you come to this conclusion of yours?

According to Tphuang, in mock combat J-10s have "crushed" J-11. That is with test pilots flying the J-10 and China's best fighter pilots flying the J-11 (the test pilots won't be as familiar with the latest air combat tactics as the elite fighter pilots according to Tphuang).
J-11B is only better than J-10 in terms of range and payload, that is why PLAAF and PLANAF (China's air force and navy aviation wing) are buying it.

With all due respect Metal Falcon, you are gravely mistaken. J-11 is certainly not "far better" than J-10, more like the other way round.

 

[mean_bird]

hj786,

Its always but logical to consider the rule of engagement. You can have an exercise where J10 wins and another where J11 wins. Heck, you can only have one where probably Jf-17 wins against both.

I am sure that the chinese would have done a good exercise but we cannot say anything about it.

 

[TOPGUN]

If we can get it then we should go for it! but forsure this is a mess with russia on this issue on china! lets see wat happens! btw the cry babies will always cry as they always have and always will so F them!

 

[IceCold]

According to Tphuang, in mock combat J-10s have "crushed" J-11. That is with test pilots flying the J-10 and China's best fighter pilots flying the J-11 (the test pilots won't be as familiar with the latest air combat tactics as the elite fighter pilots according to Tphuang).
J-11B is only better than J-10 in terms of range and payload, that is why PLAAF and PLANAF (China's air force and navy aviation wing) are buying it.

With all due respect Metal Falcon, you are gravely mistaken. J-11 is certainly not "far better" than J-10, more like the other way round.

I don't think we can take that opinion as a creditable source, reason is no country in the world is going to give away negative comments about their new toys. Same stands for J10 as well. Chinese are marketing J-10 actively to Pakistan so they cannot come out with a negative comment. Moreover even if we agree to all that, still we need to understand that future battles will be fought with BVR and then WVR. There will be hardly a time when it will come down to dog fight and even then i don't think J-11b will loose to J-10.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Do u guys think Chinese will work on its version of SU-30 MKK like J-11 aka SU-27??

 

[Fennecus]

Illegal? Ha ha.

Funny, considering that this was a licensed production (which China paid for) and Sukhoi even agreed to the upgrade that was being done on it in 2001.

The Russians are just worried that China may be re-exporting the plane to third parties, which I highly doubt.

 

[hj786]

I understand the point you guys are making, that China does not want to make their latest greatest fighter J-10 look bad by losing to J-11. But the fact of the matter is this: the latest European fighters have delta wings with canards. These aircraft were specifically designed during the later part of the cold war to kill Flankers and Mig-29s easily. Therefore it makes sense to me that J-10, with a similar planform, will perform similar to the "Euro-canards".
In any case no matter whether you believe the exercise result or not, nobody here knows whether J-10 or J-11 is the better fighter. So I don't see why some people are saying "J-11 is far better than J-10."
We know J-11 can fit a larger radar and much more payload/fuel than J-10. I believe this is where its advantage lies, not in maneuverability.

Fennacus could you give your opinion on this?

 

[IceCold]

I understand the point you guys are making, that China does not want to make their latest greatest fighter J-10 look bad by losing to J-11. But the fact of the matter is this: the latest European fighters have delta wings with canards. These aircraft were specifically designed during the later part of the cold war to kill Flankers and Mig-29s easily. Therefore it makes sense to me that J-10, with a similar planform, will perform similar to the "Euro-canards".
In any case no matter whether you believe the exercise result or not, nobody here knows whether J-10 or J-11 is the better fighter. So I don't see why some people are saying "J-11 is far better than J-10."
We know J-11 can fit a larger radar and much more payload/fuel than J-10. I believe this is where its advantage lies, not in maneuverability.

Fennacus could you give your opinion on this?

hj although the latest European jets have canards and delta wings, however that in no manner is a criteria to judge an aircraft, reason is that both the F-22 raptor and the F-35 the only true 5th generation fighter jets in the world do not have canards or perhaps the delta wing. Moreover you have stated in your own post that J-11 being bigger can employ a bigger radar and much more payload, imagine if in the hands of the PAF with western radar and avionics package, more payload and range capability , it will give us the deep strike capability, something for which we rely only on our missiles as of now.
But then again its not on the cards of PAF so there is no point in debating however there is no doubt imo that J-11b can serve us much better then the J-10.

 

[hj786]

there is no doubt imo that J-11b can serve us much better then the J-10.

IMO you are very much mistaken
I don't see what use PAF has for these extra capabilities. I would rather PAF bought 100 J-10 than 50 J-11. They cannot afford the luxury of such a large, high-maintenance aircraft that can be shot down just as easily as any other non-stealthy fighter. IMO, even J-10 numbers should be kept low and money focused on developing JF.

J-11 being bigger can employ a bigger radar and much more payload, imagine if in the hands of the PAF with western radar and avionics package, more payload and range capability , it will give us the deep strike capability, something for which we rely only on our missiles as of now.

But all of J-11's advantages can be solved by J-10 as well as JF-17 being refueled in flight range, data-linked to AEW&C and being procured in higher numbers (which they can be because they are much cheaper than J-11).
Deep strike capability? Come on, look at how large InAF is, their AWACS capability, India's SAM coverage. How far do you think a J-11 will get into India? The whole point of relying on missiles is to avoid having to make deep strikes with extremely expensive combat aircraft.

 

[TOPGUN]

How many of u guys think we will have j-11 in the near future??

 

[Quwa]

In terms of avionics, ECM/EW and physical performance, the J-10A is superior to the Su-27 and basic J-11s. The J-11B - although Chinese built - marks a substantial improvement over the basic J-11 by deploying the latest Chinese avionics & ECM/EW. It is of no surprise that the J-11B is a better fighter than J-10A, but then we must take into account the J-10B - an extensive upgrade of the J-10A.

In the end, the J-10B will be superior to J-11B in air superiority roles, but the J-11B is a longer-range strike & maritime fighter...their roles are complementary. I'm not sure if PAF will acquire J-11B, but there are enough merits to warrant the purchase. For example we can achieve engine, avionics and weapon-systems commonality between J-11B & J-10B.

Even if Russian approval is an issue, I don't think the Russians will be an issue for too long as Pakistan has a lot of geo-strategic and economic value (large market, big middle class and a lot of growth potential). In fact, it is more likely for Pakistan to be interested in their range of goods - such as S-300/400 SAMs, Su-35BM, AESA radar, AK-103, etc.

 

[PAFAce]

Good points Mark Sien. I too agree that there are credible arguments that can be made for purchasing J-11s, but I think that the arguments against currently far outweigh the arguments for, mainly due to the fact that most of our needs will be met by current purchases and plannings and that we can not afford to liberally spend on defence at this point.

Other arguments against that I can think of are; as far as the avionics go, Pakistan preferes western avionics, so any J-10s or J-11s we purchase will have to be fitted with western avionics systems and made compatible with western weapon systems. As far as the engine is concerned, even though we will have achieved commonality, we may have trouble with their purchase and will be heavily reliant on Russia, something we want to avoid even if, as you said, it may not be such a huge problem.

Lastly, I have brought up this point before in this thread and others, Pakistan must focus on indigenous avionics and control development after the JF-17. Then, we will not have to worry too much about re-fitting everything we receive with expensive western packages and will be free to buy any weapon systems we desire not having to worry about compatibility and re-training issues.

 

[iceman2009]

China,s PLAAF will by 2020 lok like this

Heavey FiGHTERS 500+ su27/30/ J11A/B

MRCA J10 A/B/C 500+

J8/J7 300 UPGRADED

200 JH7 strike

100 bombers

over 1000 flankers/J10 Dragon WILL BE HI/LO combo

Absolutely deadly

 

[qsaark]

The title of this thread is kind of interesting. Actually, it should be 'China admits she illegally copied a Russian fighter'. I really doubt that Chinese came this far without prior russian permission or some kind of agreement. These kind of things just dont happen unless Chinese were aware that after this incident, Su-27 would be the last Russian fighter they would manage to put their hands on. I would rather take these reports with a grain of salt.