Russia Admits China Illegally Copied Its Fighter

[PAFAce]

Interesting article I came across on DefenseNews. It relates very much to Pakistan, so I think it should be posted here for all to read.

Russia Admits China Illegally Copied Its Fighter
By wendell minnick
Published: 13 Feb 12:29 EST (17:29 GMT)
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BANGALORE, India - After years of denial, a Russian defense official conceded that China had produced its own "fake" version of the Su-27SK fighter jet in violation of intellectual property agreements.

"We are in discussions with China on this issue," said Mikhail Pogosyan, first vice president on program coordination, Russian Aircraft Corp., during a press conference here at the Aero India trade show.

In 1995, China secured a production license to build 200 Su-27SKs, dubbed J-11A, for $2.5 billion for the Shenyang Aircraft Corp. The deal required the aircraft to be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines. Russia cancelled the arrangement at 95 aircraft in 2006 after it discovered that China was developing an indigenous version, J-11B, with Chinese avionics and systems.

China produced six J-11B fighters for testing, but despite efforts to produce a suitable replacement for the Russian engine, the new fighter was outfitted with the same AL-31F, said Andrei Chang, a China military specialist at the Kanwa Defense Center. One J-11A was outfitted with the indigenously-built WS10A Tai Hang turbofan engine, but the J-11Bs are still using Russian AL-31Fs due to technical difficulties, Chang said.

Pogosyan and Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov traveled to Beijing in December to attend the 13th session of a Chinese-Russian joint commission on military and technical cooperation and apply pressure to Chinese officials. Ultimately, China agreed to protect intellectual property rights and stop illegally copying Russian military equipment.

"I think this was a big step to make this issue more transparent and more precise in our future discussions," said Pogosyan, who also serves as the general director of Sukhoi.

Russia fears that China would mass-produce cheaper export versions of the Su-27 for the international market, and China feared that Russia would cancel future orders for advanced arms, such as the Su-33 combat jet for China's aircraft carrier program, Chang said. Chinese violations of the end-user agreement would be particularly upsetting to Russia's long-time strategic partner India, if Pakistan buys the Chinese-built Su-27 version.

However, Pogosyan downplayed the quality of the Chinese effort, saying a copy of a copy would not be a good aircraft.

"If we speak about the copy of the airplanes, I think that in this case, the original will always be better than a slightly modified copy," he said. "The original made by the designer who developed the product is always better, and it is a better start for a new program with the original designer and developer than making a fake copy."

He said buying copies makes it difficult to overcome problems occurring during the lifetime of the aircraft, while the original developer knows from experience how to deal with these issues.

Chang does not believe China will honor the intellectual property agreement, or any agreement with Russia, and will continue to develop the J-11B as a totally indigenous aircraft. However, China will move cautiously until it secures deals for the Su-33 carrier-based fighter. China is beginning to build its first aircraft carrier and needs Russian technology and experience, Chang said.

Source: Russia Admits China Illegally Copied Its Fighter - Defense News

I posted this article primarily for those who believe that Pakistani procurement of the J-11B is just a phone-call away, and that the J-11B could be used to fulfill all our remaing hi-tech fighter-jet requirements.

When reading this article, I think most intelligent observers would ignore the statement "the original will always be better than a slightly modified copy". I think there are many examples, both in defence and the consumer world, to prove that statement wrong (ex. F-7 vs MiG-21).

Other than that, the article says nothing that we don't already know. However, it is useful to recap the major points and take note of them for future discussions:

- China needs Russia, at least for the next few years, to catch up to the rest of the powerful world in terms of defence technology development (specifically, aerial and naval defence).

- Russia has issues with China selling their technology to Pakistan.

- China wants to indigenously build aircraft carriers and wants to procure aircrafts like the Su-33 for use on these carriers (therefore, eventually we can hope this technology/expertise will be transferred to Pakistan in some way).

- China is currently having problems with engine production (or at least, engine production of the same quality and standards as the Russians).

 

[Super Falcon]

so why russia is crying now when J 11 was been in prcess of making why not at that time they speaked about it

 

[metalfalcon]

When reading this article, I think most intelligent observers would ignore the statement "the original will always be better than a slightly modified copy". I think there are many examples, both in defence and the consumer world, to prove that statement wrong (ex. F-7 vs MiG-21).

Tell me what other Options you have, Something is Better Than Nothing.

 

[Zob]

look PAF doesn't need J11B's and knowing india and the bollywood dramathey create i highly doubt that PAF will ever be even offered a J-11B....so please guys relax J-10 is what we can get J-11s is out of the question...China will never try 2 upset russia....

 

[Aslam42]

I think its the indians who r pressuring russia abt the J11s...China is known to copy everything from pencils to fighter planes n russia never had a problm with that..
Intellectua property rights is a major issue between china n west but not between china n russia but indian pressure is now showing in the russia moves..
Indians r scared of pak geting top of the line planes n r therefore pressuring russia

 

[Munir]

It is always the Indian media telling negative stories about Pakistan and India. They did the same with rd33... We should no longer post this crap about what the say but waht the reality is. Sofar the Chinese are busy with their own maufacturing, there is no need to cry about delivering anything to Pakistan or being a worse copy. The Indians are not even capable of copying if they are assisted...

 

[muse]

Russia has issues with China selling their technology to Pakistan

No sir, the author of the article suggests that India will have a problem with China selling J11B to Pakistan



What is most important about the article is that J11B is on the table between Pakistan and China. 5 squadrons of J11B for Pak navy?, yes I would appreciate it.

 

[mean_bird]

so why russia is crying now when J 11 was been in prcess of making why not at that time they speaked about it

I think we should not forget the occasion on which this was said:

Bangalore, India and at the IA show. If Russia was any serious about this, there would have been a better time and objections would have been at a higher level.

There was object by Russian govt. but primarily because if the J11, which is better and cheaper, hits the international market...Sukhoi, which still makes loads of money selling this plane and its derivatives (Su 30), would stand to loose miserably.

Tell me what other Options you have, Something is Better Than Nothing.

I don't get your comment.

China definitely had a license to produce 200 Su-27s. Why would China make and buy a copy if its inferior?

So they had both but chose the J11B



Just our of curiosity, have PAF done any war games with PLAAF including the J11 or the Su-30?

 

[fatman17]

Analysis: Will Russia ride out declining Chinese demand?

Guy Anderson JDIN Editor - London

Russian defence exports to China could decline from 40 per cent of total sales to 10 per cent, the head of arms export monopoly Rosoboronexport was reported to have said on 4 February.

Anatoly Isaikin - in comments reported by RIA Novosti - said that the prospect of declining sales to Beijing did not concern Moscow, given that "sales volumes [internationally] are still high".

Analysis
Isaikin's comments are consistent with Jane's expectations regarding the composition of Russian defence exports over the coming years.

The July 2008 edition of Jane's Industry Quarterly - China, India and Russia in the global defence market - reported that China and India dominated Russia's export order book during the early years of the current decade, accounting for an average of 70 per cent of total sales per annum. While the two countries remained Russia's most significant customers in 2007, their share of the total had dipped to 49 per cent (China 21 per cent and India 28 per cent) as the export order book was diluted by emerging markets.

The move to emerging markets reflects Jane's view that Russia's relationship with its two key customers will change in the years ahead.

India has a stated aim of increased self reliance, a willingness to 'shop globally' and a desire to move from customer to partner when procuring internationally. China's moves towards greater technological sophistication, meanwhile, will lessen its reliance on Russian materiel. Moscow's relationship with Beijing should also be considered in the context of regional rivalry.

Russia, however, successfully offset declining demand from traditional customers by developing emerging markets in Asia, Africa and Latin America. As a result, exports reached a post-Soviet peak of USD7.3 billion in 2007, having reached USD6.1 billion and USD6.5 billion in 2005 and 2006 respectively.

Isaikin's view that Russian sales volumes remain high is borne out by current figures. A combination of significant contract successes in emerging markets in North Africa and South America, plus the continued contribution of traditional leading customers, China and India, led to something of a bonanza. There are reasons to believe that Russia's momentum will continue for the remainder of this decade. Rosoboronexport reported a foreign sales backlog of USD17 billion in mid-2006, representing four years of work. This had climbed to USD24 billion by December 2007.

However, a dip in export sales beyond 2010-12 is envisaged by Jane's . Russia's move to new markets will leave it exposed to the volatility and rapid saturation issues associated with smaller developing countries. The profits generated from these new markets are unlikely to be substantial enough to offset the decline of Russia's two main customers.

© 2009 Jane's Information Group

 

[macintosh]

This isnt something about which we were unaware.China copies most of the things including trifle things like watches or even chocolate.So this isnt surprising.

 

[PAFAce]

It is always the Indian media telling negative stories about Pakistan and India. They did the same with rd33... We should no longer post this crap about what the say but waht the reality is. Sofar the Chinese are busy with their own maufacturing, there is no need to cry about delivering anything to Pakistan or being a worse copy. The Indians are not even capable of copying if they are assisted...

Defensenews is not Indian media. Also, this issue is very real, and most people are aware of it. Things like these SHOULD be posted, because they directly influence Pakistan's planning and because some people, as you can see above, have a hard time living in the real world of global politics and defence.

No sir, the author of the article suggests that India will have a problem with China selling J11B to Pakistan

That is correct. Combine that with the fact that Russia would not want to damage its relations with India (at least, presently) and my statement becomes true.

What is most important about the article is that J11B is on the table between Pakistan and China. 5 squadrons of J11B for Pak navy?, yes I would appreciate it.

I didn't get anything about J-11 being on the table at all from this article. If it had been, I believe the protest would have been greater and more direct. Also, I would like nothing more than for Pakistan to be equipped with the best, but take into account the cost of establishing and running 5 squadrons of a well known issue prone Su-27 before making bold demands.

This isnt something about which we were unaware.China copies most of the things including trifle things like watches or even chocolate.So this isnt surprising.

Thanks for your contribution. It adds nothing of intelligence. I know that when presented with a juicy opportunity to thrash China, most Indians can not resist, but self control is a very good characteristic to develop.

 

[IceCold]

J-11b is anything but Russian, although the original design was Russian influenced SU-27, it has come a long way and from a single role air superiority fighter, it has turned into a multi role combat jet.
If Pakistan decides to go for it, i don't see anything that will subject to a disapproval by the Chinese. The only factor which may be of importance as stated by a chinese here was that J-11b has limited production and therefore the only planes produced are for the PLAAF to meet the requirement.

 

[zavis2003]

J11 B is like the F7 in case. both are dumpd russians
But Russia cant suceedd in the case as it seems

Sorry to Indins and PAk at atime see no intersts in J11B. It is not a good as J10

 

[IceCold]

It is not a good as J10

May i ask how did you come to this conclusion of yours?

 

[metalfalcon]

I think we should not forget the occasion on which this was said:

Bangalore, India and at the IA show. If Russia was any serious about this, there would have been a better time and objections would have been at a higher level.

There was object by Russian govt. but primarily because if the J11, which is better and cheaper, hits the international market...Sukhoi, which still makes loads of money selling this plane and its derivatives (Su 30), would stand to loose miserably.


I don't get your comment.

China definitely had a license to produce 200 Su-27s. Why would China make and buy a copy if its inferior?

So they had both but chose the J11B



Just our of curiosity, have PAF done any war games with PLAAF including the J11 or the Su-30?

Dude what i meant was that If you say that J-10 and J-11 are Just Crap and not Suitable for PAF then what should PAF do in order to Modernize, What oter Options do PAF have (USA or Europe Not Likely) so Something (J-10 or J-11) is better than Nothing.