Rs 80,000 crore worth defence projects cleared, 6 submarines to be built in India

[pursuit of happiness]

Sorry Now this also starting to sound like LCA.....We were supposed to have the first aircraft in our inventory by then.......

--
yes . but see the deal
1. dealing with french is big deal
2. cost of one platform is same of total of deal we are talking about .. even more than Rs.80k
3. TOT
4. UPA dealing
so now hope things will get on trakcs

 

[shaheenmissile]

How many thousand caror was MMRCA? The Indian pipe dream which is yet to materialize?

 

[spectribution]

How many thousand caror was MMRCA? The Indian pipe dream which is yet to materialize?

Go play with JF 17. When that thing has atleast HMDS, FLIR POD, STEALTH COMPOSITES like Tejas Mk 1, give us a ring.

MMRCA is beyond PAF's aukad. For now PLAAF reject aircraft will have to do for PAF.

 

[sancho]

Yups..thats also one of the mess which NaMo government has to get corrected. Delays result in not only compromising with the security but increasing cost and burden on tax payers money.

Oh boy, you guys really need to inform yourself and get an idea about what is happening and not simply take everything for granted what political parties or the media tells us!

Submarine deals

P75 deal under former government - licence production of a foreign sub in India at government owned shipyard
P75"I" deal under the new government - licence production of a foreign sub in India at privat shipyard

LUH / N-LUH helicopter deal

Under former government - licence production of foreign helicopters in India at government owned aero company
Under the new government government - licence production of foreign helicopters in India at a privat aero company

So the new government is not ordering any indigenous helicopters or submarines, is not creating a new policy and is actually causing more delays and more costs for the taxpayer in these deals!

 

[spectribution]

Oh boy, you guys really need to inform yourself and get an idea about what is happening and not simply take everything for granted what political parties or the media tells us!

Submarine deals

P75 deal under former government - licence production of a foreign sub in India at government owned shipyard
P75"I" deal under the new government - licence production of a foreign sub in India at privat shipyard

LUH / N-LUH helicopter deal

Under former government - licence production of foreign helicopters in India at government owned aero company
Under the new government government - licence production of foreign helicopters in India at a privat aero company

So there are the new government is not ordering any indigenous helicopters or submarines, is not creating a new policy and is actually causing more delays and more costs for the taxpayer in these deals!

It takes both Private and public into consideration. No point adding pressure to overburdened PSUs. Private companies with greater efficiency and more international collaboration will deliver better.

 

[Iggy]

6 subs are scorpene ... Or 6 more in negotiations

We are going to produce 6 more mate under new contract..

 

[sancho]

The first question comes to my mind when i hear this is, Do we have capacity to build 6 more???? Almost all the shipyards are running in capacity and almost all of them have further orders pending with them.....

That's the funny part, that the things MoD / government are announcing doesn't really fit to what they actually do and that confuses everybody!

They say things like "make in India" and India will be self reliant and the more they repeat it the more people will believe it, but the reality is different!
NDAs "make in India" policy is just a new name for the "buy and make" policy of the former government and both have the same aim, of making India to a defence production hub, by increasing manufacturing (not development) in India!
So in both cases, we are licence producing foreign arms and techs in India, be it for our own forces or with the aim to export them.

But licence production doesn't make India self reliant!
But licence production doesn't make Indian defence companies more capable in developing arms and techs!
But licence production doesn't even benefit our companies in the first place, but foreign companies that outsource basic production to India, to offer their arms and techs at lower costs on the export market!

What is better for Indian forces? A medium class helicopter developed in India and according to the requirements of the Indian forces, or a foreign helicopter licence produced in India?
What will make India self reliant? Developing and producing a helicopter, or licence producing a foreign one?
What will give Indian defence industry more benefits? Exporting an indigenous helicopter, or licence producing a foreign helicopter that will be exported?

NDA is far away from being pro indigenous developments, since they didn't cut any procurement in favour of an indigenous development (HAL LUH in favour for foreign LUH, Naval Dhruv for IN and ICG instead of foreign naval LUH, development of indigenous medium class helicopter, instead of foreign medium class helicopter, LCA instead of MMRCA, development of indigenous SSK instead of a foreign SSK...), but they are pro privat industry only, since all they want the same foreign arms, just produced by another Indian company. So we might end up building 6 + 6 Scorpenes in India, but from 2 different Indian shipyards. Anybody else seeing delays and cost-overruns coming?

 

[kaku1]

@sancho Why going for new type of sub. Scorpene is that much bad or of older generation?

The MDL already created a production line for Scorpene, so why not order more Scorpene, and use french build MESMA as AIP.

 

[sancho]

It takes both Private and public into consideration. No point adding pressure to overburdened PSUs. Private companies with greater efficiency and more international collaboration will deliver better.

I agree and I am all for more competition for the licence productions, but one have to do it with a bit of sense! Implementing this policy for every new deal is great for India and just as it was planned by the former government too, but scrapping deals that only needed a decision about the winner, delaying modernisation only to give private industry more financial benefits is the wrong way to do it! We can't improve our economy at the cost of national security and the lifes of our soldiers can we? So why should they remain in aging fighters, helicopters and subs, only because the new MoD wants to divert these tenders to privat companies?
Do you remember the big PR show of the PM meeting with the heads of the forces for the first time? They all insisted on the importance of speeding up modernisations and specifically pointed out of fast decisions on LUHs (for IA and IAF) as well as SSKs and exactly these tenders are now further delayed by the new government. Do you think they will celebrate it now that they have to wait longer for the arms and techs they asked for? I have my doubts

 

[kaku1]

@sancho one more thing, we have builded Arihant class. It means India has the capability to manufacture sub, L&T already manufacturing hull for Arihant class.

Isnt India is capable of building its own class of Diesel sub, if battery or engine is problem, then we can import it.

 

[sancho]

@sancho Why going for new type of sub. Scorpene is that much bad or of older generation?

The MDL already created a production line for Scorpene, so why not order more Scorpene, and use french build MESMA as AIP.

We are not necessarily going for a new sub, we just use the competition to get more benefits for us wrt costs, offsets or ToT. If we ask DCNS for a simple addional order of Scorpenes, we won't be able to negotiate much, but if they feel the pressure of competition offers, they have to give us more too. It is even very likely that we will just order more Scorpenes, since it fulfills our requirements of AIP and land attack missiles (most likely export versions of the naval Scalp) and have the benefit of the already existing production line as you said, but producing them on 2 seperate production lines would be a silly idea.

 

[kaku1]

We are not necessarily going for a new sub, we just use the competition to get more benefits for us wrt costs, offsets or ToT. If we ask DCNS for a simple addional order of Scorpenes, we won't be able to negotiate much, but if they feel the pressure of competition offers, they have to give us more too. It is even very likely that we will just order more Scorpenes, since it fulfills our requirements of AIP and land attack missiles (most likely export versions of the naval Scalp) and have the benefit of the already existing production line as you said, but producing them on 2 seperate production lines would be a silly idea.

But isnt selecting new sub from different shipyard, even pressurize the current production line.

First Russian, then German, then French. What the MoD is even trying to prove. That we can build sub of all country?

 

[sancho]

@sancho one more thing, we have builded Arihant class. It means India has the capability to manufacture sub, L&T already manufacturing hull for Arihant class.

Isnt India is capable of building its own class of Diesel sub, if battery or engine is problem, then we can import it.

We should, even if Arihant is still in it's early stages and far away from being ready developed. But with that and the know how we gain with Scorpenes we should be able to develop own SSKs soon too. Maybe that's even the long term plan of IN, to add 6 more Scorpenes and then go for an indigenous SSK, but then again the new government should had simply selected DCNS as the winner of the P75I and not scrap everything and start all over again, only to get privat shipyards in.

But isnt selecting new sub from different shipyard, even pressurize the current production line.

How so? They (Mazogon) are responsible for the first 6 and are not able to participate even in the follow order as it seems, so where should they feel pressure?
And if we select a totally different sub, it gets even worse, because it increases logistical problems in IN and all the know how we gained from the Scorpene has no benefit anymore.

 

[Tshering22]

Sorry Now this also starting to sound like LCA.....We were supposed to have the first aircraft in our inventory by then.......

Can't help it now, can we? The previous regime didn't negotiate with France well because htey were too busy shifting their black money out of India.

Which means the French had considerable time to jack up the prices.

Unless NaMo takes the German offer of EFT as a cushion to haggle, I don't see Dassault really budging. They really have some guts to haggle on the ToT terms which were the first criteria in being selected. Not even sold a single aircraft abroad and then still arguing. Woah!

 

[sancho]

Another 12 Dornier surveillance aircraft with enhanced sensors will also be bought from the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd at a cost of Rs 1,850 crore.

And since we are talking about indigenous developments vs licence production in India. These 12 x Do 228 which will be licence produced at HAL in India and even exported from India (which is what the NDAs Make in India policy is about) could actually scrap the order of Saras for IN, since Saras was planned to replace the older Do 228 in service. So another example where the MoD actually could have pushed for self reliance and indigenously developed products, instead of foreign once that are only licence produced in India, but they didn't!