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'Roof of the World' rebels against Pakistan

Your conclusions are totally baseless.



Military Personnel from both countries are meeting in Karachi to discuss cease fire line..so??



Again what is your point here?



Part 1 of 1948 agreement is ' CEASE-FIRE ORDER'..which pertains to cessation of hostilities.

Part 2 of the agreement is Truce agreement, what will be the subsequent steps taken(ie withdrawing Pakistani army) by Pakistani govt.(which they never did)

In Karachi agreement(which was done to draw up the ceasefire line), both the parties decided that determination of the ceasefire line is complement of suspension of hostilities(which had already happened) and not part two of agreement(which never happened. )

I still cant find any reference to how "Pakistani troops in Kashmir is not the violation of any of UN resolution" ??

you also had a Karachi pact with AJK. On illegal grounds.

Karachi Agreement - Wikisource, the free online library

My dear UN Resolution passed & Karachi Agreement reached dated 13 Aug, 1948 and 29 July, 1949 respectively which mean when the resolution was passed Pakistan agreed (& in agreement till today) to withdraw its troop but in 1949 in Karachi Agreement bot India & Pakistan under the supervision of truce committee appointed by UN (which mean this agreement is backed by UN so it could not be the violation of any UN resolution) agreed to establish the cease-fire line and considering the question of withdrawal of troops separately now dear could you plz tell how cloud Pakistan withdraw all its troops unilaterally in the presence of the Indian troops (India has also agreed to withdraw its troops in UN).

for this matter either a 'multilateral or bilateral mechanism is needed under the supervision of UN' but plz tell me which side has adopted the stance of "Integral Part" and maintaining the larger number of troops (larger than the total regular Army of Pakistan)

karachi agreement has no value since Pakistan violated it in 1965, and 1971 war. After that came Shimla agreement which is still being followed, because Agra summit ended without any conclusion.

UN resolution has no value as both India and Pakistan are ready for solution via bilateral talks and No Thrid Party interference will be entertained.
 
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karachi agreement has no value since Pakistan violated it in 1965, and 1971 war. After that came Shimla agreement which is still being followed, because Agra summit ended without any conclusion.

UN resolution has no value as both India and Pakistan are ready for solution via bilateral talks and No Thrid Party interference will be entertained.

My Dear you have smartly sum up Indian stance ..... ;)

India has already accepted third party "UN" ..... :oops:

& as far as Shimla Agreement is concern will u post it ..... or would allow me to post .... :whistle:
 
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The fools in Pakistan govt are so fool that they don't wanna integrate GB into Pakistan. The people of those areas were the ones who fought Britishers, DOG ras & Indians & joined Pakistan & today their demand is to grant them provincial status.

Northern Light Infantry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indians can only dream to get a foot hold in this area.

BTW that map was wrong as there is no such thing as "gifted to China"

Sino-Pakistan Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the map has mistakes in it, may be some of you guys should take the the time to inform them and work with them to correct it. It looks like a GB local TV website:
Mountain TV – Gilgit-Baltistan

Some interesting news from this website:
Mobility problem is subsiding for stranded population of Gojal; thanks to the Chinese | Mountain TV – Gilgit-Baltistan

Looks like the Chinese are active in this area. The more Chinese involvement the more difficult it will be for Indians to get an upper hand.
 
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If the map has mistakes in it, may be some of you guys should take the the time to inform them and work with them to correct it. It looks like a GB local TV website:

I mean that title "gifted to China" was wrong. That area was always under Chinese control & Pakistan & India used to claim it but after 1963 agreement between Pakistan & China, China withdraw it's forces from 750 sq mi of territory which came under Pakistan's control whereas Pakistan backed off from it's claims to that belt.

Negotiations between the nations officially began on October 13, 1962 and resulted in an agreement being signed on 2 March 1963. It was signed by foreign ministers Chen Yi for the Chinese and Zulfikar Ali Bhutto for the Pakistani.
The agreement resulted in China withdrawing from about 750 sq m of territory, and Pakistan withdrawing its claim to about 2,050 sq m of territory (which it had not in fact controlled or administered).

Sino-Pakistan Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I apologize as I was not very clear in last post.
 
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My Dear you have smartly sum up Indian stance ..... ;)

India has already accepted third party "UN" ..... :oops:

& as far as Shimla Agreement is concern will u post it ..... or would allow me to post .... :whistle:

No, India calls whole Kashmir as part of India. no question of UN intervention.

Shimla agreement.

(i) That the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations shall govern the relations between the two countries.

(ii) That the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between them. Pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation and both shall prevent the organization, assistance or encouragement of any acts detrimental to the maintenance of peace and harmonious relations.

charter means protocols in UN. Like geneva and vienna convention, not UN resolution.

Simla Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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No, India calls whole Kashmir as part of India. no question of UN intervention.

Shimla agreement.

(i) That the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations shall govern the relations between the two countries.

(ii) That the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between them. Pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation and both shall prevent the organization, assistance or encouragement of any acts detrimental to the maintenance of peace and harmonious relations.

charter means protocols in UN. Like geneva and vienna convention, not UN resolution.

Simla Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

read again my dear your own post ......

ShimlaAgreement1.jpg


ShimlaAgreement2.jpg


ShimlaAgreement3.jpg


link from UN Department of Political Affairs site:http://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacemaker.un.org/files/IN PK_720702_Simla Agreement.pdf


When India term Kashmir as Integral part of India she violets the UN resolution and Shimla agreement in which India accepted Kashmir as disputed territory ......

BTW thnx to clarify the difference b/w UN charter and UN resolution , but it seem you forget that every resolution which pass in UN is filed under 'UN charter' ......
 
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My dear UN Resolution passed & Karachi Agreement reached dated 13 Aug, 1948 and 29 July, 1949 respectively which mean when the resolution was passed Pakistan agreed (& in agreement till today) to withdraw its troop but in 1949 in Karachi Agreement bot India & Pakistan under the supervision of truce committee appointed by UN (which mean this agreement is backed by UN so it could not be the violation of any UN resolution) agreed to establish the cease-fire line and considering the question of withdrawal of troops separately now dear could you plz tell how cloud Pakistan withdraw all its troops unilaterally in the presence of the Indian troops (India has also agreed to withdraw its troops in UN).

for this matter either a 'multilateral or bilateral mechanism is needed under the supervision of UN' but plz tell me which side has adopted the stance of "Integral Part" and maintaining the larger number of troops (larger than the total regular Army of Pakistan)

UN res 47 recommended a three step process to resolve the Kashmir issue.

Cessation of hostilities and drawing of a ceasefire line was step one..which was accomplished through Karachi agreements.

Removal of Pakistani troops and Pakistani nationals from Kashmiri soil was step two.

Only after last Pakistanis were gone from Kashmiri soil, and UN commission has notified Indian, that India would remove a part of it troops from Kashmir. leaving what was necessary for maintaining law and order in the state.

1.When the commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistani nationals referred to in Part II, A, 2, hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistani forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of its forces from that State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission.

Pakistan never took the second step, and more than that, even reversed the step 1 and resumed hostilities and attempted to alter the ceasefire line by force in 1965.

Hence it was due Pakistani obstinacy, a UN plebiscite was never held in Kashmir.

Even though these resolutions and their methods became inconsequential after 1974 Shimla agreements as both parties agreed to not involve any third party(UN) to resolve the issue.

In 90s Pakistan initiated terrorism in Kashmir and Indians hardened their stand even further and reverted back to original stand of Kashmir being integral part of India.

With each Pakistani aggression in Kashmir, Indian stand on Kashmir issue has subsequently hardened, at the moment the best Pakistan can get from India..is conversion of LOC into IB..in a few years(as Indian grows even stronger vis-a-vis Pakistan) even that won't be acceptable.
 
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for this matter either a 'multilateral or bilateral mechanism is needed under the supervision of UN' but plz tell me which side has adopted the stance of "Integral Part" and maintaining the larger number of troops (larger than the total regular Army of Pakistan)
More things change, more they remain same.

The Truce Agreement does talk of bilateral mechanism, but only between India and UN. Pakistan had no role in it. Part II/B(1) reads:

“When the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals referred to in Part II A 2 hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistan forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of their forces from the State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission”

Nehru, while seeking clarifications on the resolution of 13th Aug, 1948, had sought to identify the parties to the negotiation concerning demilitarization. He wrote to Joseph Korbel, the Chairman of the Commission, on 20th Aug, 1948 (UNCIP’s 1st Report):

“...the paramount need for security is recognized by the Commission, and the time when the withdrawal of Indian forces from the State is to begin, the stages in which it is to be carried out and the strength of Indian forces to be retained in the State, are matters for settlement between the Commission and the Government of India (para 4)​

Joseph Korbel, wrote back, on 25th Aug, 1948, confirming Nehru’s interpretation (UNCIP’s 1st Report):

“The Commission requests me to convey to Your Excellency its view that the interpretation of the Resolution as expressed in paragraph 4 of your letter coincides with its own interpretation...”

Pakistan, too had sought clarification on this very issue. Joseph Korbel, in his letter to Zafarulla Khan, dated 3rd Sept, 1948, stated (UNCIP’s 1st Report):

“As regards paragraphs B 1 and 2 of Part II, the Commission, while recognizing the paramount need for security of the State of Jammu ad Kashmir, confirms that the minimum strength required for the purpose of assisting the local authorities in the observance of law and order, would be determined by the Commission and the Government of India. The Commission considers that it is free to hear the views of the Government of Pakistan on the subject.”

In other words, India was neither obliged to negotiate with Pakistan nor to share information about demilitarization with anyone other than UN Commission. Neither did Pakistan have any right to dictate terms and conditions for its own withdrawal or seek information from India, or perhaps even from UN, about India’'s withdrawal.

The Commission had on several occasions, clarified, that Pakistan had to ‘completely’ withdraw from the occupied part. The evacuated land was then to become UN’'s concern and Pakistan had absolutely no role to play in it (not even in the subsequent plebiscite). Pakistan’'s argument, based on its flawed premise, was in complete contradiction with the Commission’s clarifications. For example, UNCIP’s 3rd Report states:

“...the Resolution […], as has been pointed out, draws a distinction between the withdrawal of Indian and Pakistan forces. Pakistan troops are to begin to withdraw in advance of the Indian troops and their withdrawal is not conditioned on Pakistan's agreement to the plan of the Indian withdrawal.” (para 242)

“To summarise, (a) negotiations regarding demilitarization was a bipartite affair between India and the UN, where Pakistan had no role to play, and (b) Pakistan'’s withdrawal was ‘unconditional’, unilateral and non-negotiable.
___________________________

End Note:

UNCIP’s 1st Report was prepared by Mr Alfredo Lonazo, representative of Columbia and is dated 22, Nov, 1948. Commission’s chairman was Mr Joseph Korbel.

UNCIP’s 3rd Report was prepared by Mr Robert van de Karchove, representative of Belgium and is dated 9 Dec, 1949. Commission’s chairman was Mr Hernando Semper. [/quote]
 
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Once in a year incident. There are police stations in Skardu where not even a single FIR has been registered for past two years.

Skardu is located in Gilgit.What about the sectarian voilence in Gilgit.Many of the victims were Shias
 
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read again my dear your own post ......

ShimlaAgreement1.jpg


ShimlaAgreement2.jpg


ShimlaAgreement3.jpg


link from UN Department of Political Affairs site:http://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacemaker.un.org/files/IN PK_720702_Simla Agreement.pdf


When India term Kashmir as Integral part of India she violets the UN resolution and Shimla agreement in which India accepted Kashmir as disputed territory ......

BTW thnx to clarify the difference b/w UN charter and UN resolution , but it seem you forget that every resolution which pass in UN is filed under 'UN charter' ......

it says, it governs the relation between the two countries. but in case of differences and disputes, Neither India nor Pakistan will allow UN to interfere, specially in case of Kashmir.
 
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More things change, more they remain same.

The Truce Agreement does talk of bilateral mechanism, but only between India and UN. Pakistan had no role in it. Part II/B(1) reads:

“When the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals referred to in Part II A 2 hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistan forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of their forces from the State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission”

Nehru, while seeking clarifications on the resolution of 13th Aug, 1948, had sought to identify the parties to the negotiation concerning demilitarization. He wrote to Joseph Korbel, the Chairman of the Commission, on 20th Aug, 1948 (UNCIP’s 1st Report):

“...the paramount need for security is recognized by the Commission, and the time when the withdrawal of Indian forces from the State is to begin, the stages in which it is to be carried out and the strength of Indian forces to be retained in the State, are matters for settlement between the Commission and the Government of India (para 4)​

Joseph Korbel, wrote back, on 25th Aug, 1948, confirming Nehru’s interpretation (UNCIP’s 1st Report):

“The Commission requests me to convey to Your Excellency its view that the interpretation of the Resolution as expressed in paragraph 4 of your letter coincides with its own interpretation...”

Pakistan, too had sought clarification on this very issue. Joseph Korbel, in his letter to Zafarulla Khan, dated 3rd Sept, 1948, stated (UNCIP’s 1st Report):

“As regards paragraphs B 1 and 2 of Part II, the Commission, while recognizing the paramount need for security of the State of Jammu ad Kashmir, confirms that the minimum strength required for the purpose of assisting the local authorities in the observance of law and order, would be determined by the Commission and the Government of India. The Commission considers that it is free to hear the views of the Government of Pakistan on the subject.”

In other words, India was neither obliged to negotiate with Pakistan nor to share information about demilitarization with anyone other than UN Commission. Neither did Pakistan have any right to dictate terms and conditions for its own withdrawal or seek information from India, or perhaps even from UN, about India’'s withdrawal.

The Commission had on several occasions, clarified, that Pakistan had to ‘completely’ withdraw from the occupied part. The evacuated land was then to become UN’'s concern and Pakistan had absolutely no role to play in it (not even in the subsequent plebiscite). Pakistan’'s argument, based on its flawed premise, was in complete contradiction with the Commission’s clarifications. For example, UNCIP’s 3rd Report states:

“...the Resolution […], as has been pointed out, draws a distinction between the withdrawal of Indian and Pakistan forces. Pakistan troops are to begin to withdraw in advance of the Indian troops and their withdrawal is not conditioned on Pakistan's agreement to the plan of the Indian withdrawal.” (para 242)

“To summarise, (a) negotiations regarding demilitarization was a bipartite affair between India and the UN, where Pakistan had no role to play, and (b) Pakistan'’s withdrawal was ‘unconditional’, unilateral and non-negotiable.
___________________________

End Note:

UNCIP’s 1st Report was prepared by Mr Alfredo Lonazo, representative of Columbia and is dated 22, Nov, 1948. Commission’s chairman was Mr Joseph Korbel.

UNCIP’s 3rd Report was prepared by Mr Robert van de Karchove, representative of Belgium and is dated 9 Dec, 1949. Commission’s chairman was Mr Hernando Semper.

Who many times do I have to remind you people about the Karachi agreement (link from UN website to download the full document) dated 29th July, 1949 under the supervision of UN truce committee in which India agreed with Pakistan's right to stationed troops in AJK, in addition to this in this agreement India agreed to consider the Part -II (truce Agreement ) UN resolution of 13 August, 1948 separately, the point to be noted here that Karachi agreement is signed under the supervision of Truce Committee which mean under this agreement any troops deployment of Pakistan in accordance of conditions agreed b/w India and Pakistan in Karachi agreement is not the violation of of UN resolution of 13th Aug, 1948.

Karachi Agreement 3.JPG

Now ask your Government to tell the complete truth to your Nation.

UN res 47 recommended a three step process to resolve the Kashmir issue.

Cessation of hostilities and drawing of a ceasefire line was step one..which was accomplished through Karachi agreements.

Removal of Pakistani troops and Pakistani nationals from Kashmiri soil was step two.

Only after last Pakistanis were gone from Kashmiri soil, and UN commission has notified Indian, that India would remove a part of it troops from Kashmir. leaving what was necessary for maintaining law and order in the state.



Pakistan never took the second step, and more than that, even reversed the step 1 and resumed hostilities and attempted to alter the ceasefire line by force in 1965.

Hence it was due Pakistani obstinacy, a UN plebiscite was never held in Kashmir.

Even though these resolutions and their methods became inconsequential after 1974 Shimla agreements as both parties agreed to not involve any third party(UN) to resolve the issue.

In 90s Pakistan initiated terrorism in Kashmir and Indians hardened their stand even further and reverted back to original stand of Kashmir being integral part of India.

With each Pakistani aggression in Kashmir, Indian stand on Kashmir issue has subsequently hardened, at the moment the best Pakistan can get from India..is conversion of LOC into IB..in a few years(as Indian grows even stronger vis-a-vis Pakistan) even that won't be acceptable.

read my reply to @toxic_pus
 
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Who many times do I have to remind you people about the Karachi agreement (link from UN website to download the full document) dated 29th July, 1949 under the supervision of UN truce committee in which India agreed with Pakistan's right to stationed troops in AJK, in addition to this in this agreement India agreed to consider the Part -II (truce Agreement ) UN resolution of 13 August, 1948 separately, the point to be noted here that Karachi agreement is signed under the supervision of Truce Committee which mean under this agreement any troops deployment of Pakistan in accordance of conditions agreed b/w India and Pakistan in Karachi agreement is not the violation of of UN resolution of 13th Aug, 1948.

View attachment 37771

Now ask you Government to tell the complete truth to your Nation.



read my reply to @toxic_pus

UN has no role in Kashmir. It is a bilateral issue now.
 
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short of arguments ...... ????

hahahahahaha ...........

there is nothing to argue if you bring documents from 1948 which have been violated and new documents have substituted them.
 
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there is nothing to argue if you bring documents from 1948 which have been violated and new documents have substituted them.

bhai Aink ke andhe ko rasta deka sakte hai ....magar aqal ke andhe ko nahi ......
 
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