Romans vs Han China

[Genesis]

These are your assumptions. If someone came with a big enough pot of gold......



I already knew about the number of Chinese troops from before, i probably know more about ancient China then many of your countrymen. Japan too. When i was a kid i was an avid reader of history books, encyclopedia's.
Dont think you can find a post where i talked about inexperience and weaknesses of Han's. Mostly i was only trying to set the record straight.

People including you, talked a lot about Parthians and Surena's great win (which it was-credit must be given) and going by that account they claim Rome was worthless and easily defeatable.
Noone talks about how the Parthian capital was ransacked several times and the whole country plundered after that. How good were Parthians when you look at it from this perspective?

It's definitely possible to know more about China than my country man just like the same could be true in reverse. Like I can name all your supreme court justices, but can all Americans?

Maybe you didn't say it, not sure, but there are people that most certainly said it.

I only said Parthia defeated Rome, not that Rome sucked, Rome had so much of the world conquered, how could it suck. But looking at other perspectives you can see that Rome never completely conquered Parthia.

I guess we are both putting words in each other's mouth.

 

[Audio]

I guess we are both putting words in each other's mouth.

i'm not putting anything in your mouth, didn't even say you wrote "Rome sucks".
Answer to the Hun's-Mongol's comment is on the previous page, i edited the last post.

 

[kalu_miah]

Nothing! Things would have gone the same,the mongols didn't even destroy the russians in the long term,eventually they killed all the mongols descendants and took their lands,the same thing happenned with muslims in Spain.You see ,europeans,like the romans always come back after defeat and opression,they don't cry about it like most people "oh look,they enslaved us,they conquered us,they robbed us"...they take their time,they fight back over and over again and win even if it takes centuries,after all, it matters only who stands in the end.

Indeed, I do not believe Europeans will stand in the end, history has not ended in 2013 you know, it is on going.

how is Ogedei Khan related to the topic? This is Romans, not Teutonic knights time, but i guess you scramble to support your masters with unrelated data. Either that, or just plain stupid.

Yes, it is not exactly the topic, but I have mentioned it because I saw oozing of European ethnocentrism and wanted to puncture the balloon a bit with some historical tid bits. Since, it is off topic, I opened a separate thread on it:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...d-mongol-invasion-europe-helped-its-rise.html

 

[Audio]

Yes, it is not exactly the topic, but I have mentioned it because I saw oozing of European ethnocentrism and wanted to puncture the balloon a bit with some historical tid bits. Since, it is off topic, I opened a separate thread on it:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...d-mongol-invasion-europe-helped-its-rise.html

Yes, yes, the gist of your new thread is white nation beaten by non-white. You're a brown supremacist, sounds stupid, i know, but this is the vibe i'm getting from you.
And that ballon you decided to puncture, lol, how many ballons can i puncture if i get the freedom to take any event from any time to prove my point? We could start with gunboat diplomacy and move up the years lol....

Indeed, I do not believe Europeans will stand in the end, history has not ended in 2013 you know, it is on going.

Just proving my point.....and i do not believe you will live long enough to see what you wish for so badly.
You need to open your eyes, not everything is going according to plans in the country that you put your biggest hopes in.
But anyway....you have the freedom to think what you want, another option given to you by the same system/people you loathe so badly.....though that same freedom might not be taken for granted if you ever do get your wish.

 

[Shinigami]

Thought Asians could count. America's population was less than twice Japanese Empire's at time of conflict, and we had a "Europe first" policy (most troops and equipment to Europe). And we always ruled a huge area (Europe and much of "Asia". Look around before posting to prevent looking like an idiot.

US outproduced Japan during the war. by later half it was almost 10:1

Oh, and the Greeks had better math.

not really. the greeks have been overestimated since it was the only ancient civilization in europe

Woulda coulda shoulda. Fact is Europe was not conquered by Mongols....China and India were.

not really

 

[kalu_miah]

Yes, yes, the gist of your new thread is white nation beaten by non-white. You're a brown supremacist, sounds stupid, i know, but this is the vibe i'm getting from you.
And that ballon you decided to puncture, lol, how many ballons can i puncture if i get the freedom to take any event from any time to prove my point? We could start with gunboat diplomacy and move up the years lol....

Just proving my point.....and i do not believe you will live long enough to see what you wish for so badly.
You need to open your eyes, not everything is going according to plans in the country that you put your biggest hopes in.
But anyway....you have the freedom to think what you want, another option given to you by the same system/people you loathe so badly.....though that same freedom might not be taken for granted if you ever do get your wish.

We have already caught your supremacist mindset in another thread, but you are not alone in this thinking, it is a general mindset in a broad cross section of the population. I would say this mindset that helped the rise of Europeans, the arrogance that is so out of touch with the changing global reality is also going to cause the downfall, not a quick downhill, but a gradual slow decline. We can already see this decline in the reduction of the share of GDP of Euro origin countries of the total world GDP, since the middle of last century.

And I don't depend on any country, I am talking about total global population, not just brown, but yellow and black also.

 

[Genesis]

i'm not putting anything in your mouth, didn't even say you wrote "Rome sucks".
Answer to the Hun's-Mongol's comment is on the previous page, i edited the last post.

People including you, talked a lot about Parthians and Surena's great win (which it was-credit must be given) and going by that account they claim Rome was worthless and easily defeatable.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...481-romans-vs-han-china-10.html#ixzz2Rorn7TcE

This isn't what you said? How is that not putting words in my mouth, when did I say rome was worthless.

Also you now claim the mongols are not within range of this topic, which is very true, then you wrote a post that said me and @kalu_miah had our facts wrong that in fact it was Attila. That was you or was I mistaken.

Now that you are easily proven wrong you bring up Mongols are not part of the equation. Is that how you want to play it.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

I must state that heavy infantry and logistics doesn't go hand in hand. Anything heavy is going to cause issues when travelling, and even fighting e.g. carrying 30kgs of armour and shield all day standing in formation causes significant stamina issues.

Other then leadership, battle hardened troops, number of troops, another important thing is logistical provisions such as number of horses, cows, camels etc to carry arrows, bombs, food, medicine in and out of camp. Crossbows are deadly especially if they are able to penetrate shields and pin arms to shields however Roman soldiers lack of mobility and lack of numbers is what will be their downfall if all else remains the same.

That's what different about the roman war machine.Normally what u said would be true,but the romans perfected forced marching with heavy armour.Their logistics system was unrivalled with a road network still used almost intact throughout the whole middle ages.Plus excellent use of field fortifications,cart animals,siege trains,best field medicine and the ability to build a mobile fort after the march every day.Yes crossbows are the primary han advantage as i said before but similarly if the roman army closes on the opposing han infantry,then the galdius and pilum will decimate their ranks.
In any case doesn't matter coz supremacists from both sides have now hijacked the thread.

 

[flamer84]

Indeed, I do not believe Europeans will stand in the end, history has not ended in 2013 you know, it is on going.



Yes, it is not exactly the topic, but I have mentioned it because I saw oozing of European ethnocentrism and wanted to puncture the balloon a bit with some historical tid bits. Since, it is off topic, I opened a separate thread on it:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...d-mongol-invasion-europe-helped-its-rise.html

So,the curtain finally falls,you just hate europeans and hope for their demise,well,keep hoping buddy ,empty hope it's what sustains frail minds.

That's what different about the roman war machine.Normally what u said would be true,but the romans perfected forced marching with heavy armour.Their logistics system was unrivalled with a road network still used almost intact throughout the whole middle ages.Plus excellent use of field fortifications,cart animals,siege trains,best field medicine and the ability to build a mobile fort after the march every day.Yes crossbows are the primary han advantage as i said before but similarly if the roman army closes on the opposing han infantry,then the galdius and pilum will decimate their ranks.
In any case doesn't matter coz supremacists from both sides have now hijacked the thread.

This is how I see it:if the romans would have met the hans and their crossbows and lost a first battle they would have just adapted their tactics,probably copied the crossbows and win the next one.That's just what those people did in those times,they constantly improoved their war machine,learning from their foes.

 

[flamer84]

@kalu_miah...And now some more news flash for you: The mongols did return after their first invasion in 1241.In 1287 they again attacked Hungary led by Nogai Khan and Tabaluga(both leaders of the powerful Golden Horde) but they were badly defeated,loosing much of their army.In 1293 they invaded Serbia but they were defeated again.In the following years they kept coming back with the same results though:defeat at the hands of europeans!.Why did this happen? Because Europe learned from her mistakes,changed tactics against mongols ,began building a chain of powerfull castles to contain the mobile mongol forces.

So,you see my friend,your speech about the conquest of Europe is canceled by simple historical facts.They did try after the death of Ogedei,they failed though.

 

[USAHawk785]

These are your assumptions. If someone came with a big enough pot of gold......



I already knew about the number of Chinese troops from before, i probably know more about ancient China then many of your countrymen. Japan too. When i was a kid i was an avid reader of history books, encyclopedia's.
Dont think you can find a post where i talked about inexperience and weaknesses of Han's. Mostly i was only trying to set the record straight.

People including you, talked a lot about Parthians and Surena's great win (which it was-credit must be given) and going by that account they claim Rome was worthless and easily defeatable.
Noone talks about how the Parthian capital was ransacked several times and the whole country plundered after that. How good were Parthians when you look at it from this perspective?



You both bring in Mongols in this topic. They are irelevant to this debate. I know the Bangladeshi posted it out of spite, to show how Asian's can do. You just went along and picked it up to prove some racial point which is again irelevant.

Not my fault if you two can't debate within some sort of limits. I could also say, we could nuke you after WWII....irelevant as it would be.

Right on, Audio. Right on, brotha !

 

[BeyondHeretic]

Known facts are that iran (Persia/Parthia) defeated rome not only in defensive wars but also offensive ones , Shapur declared himself the king of both Iranians and non-Iranians after the battle of Edessa

 

[USAHawk785]

@kalu_miah...And now some more news flash for you: The mongols did return after their first invasion in 1241.In 1287 they again attacked Hungary led by Nogai Khan and Tabaluga(both leaders of the powerful Golden Horde) but they were badly defeated,loosing much of their army.In 1293 they invaded Serbia but they were defeated again.In the following years they kept coming back with the same results though:defeat at the hands of europeans!.Why did this happen? Because Europe learned from her mistakes,changed tactics against mongols ,began building a chain of powerfull castles to contain the mobile mongol forces.

So,you see my friend,your speech about the conquest of Europe is canceled by simple historical facts.They did try after the death of Ogedei,they failed though.

The last time the asiatics threatened Europe was in the Battle of Vienna, when the Turkish plans for conquest of Europe was silenced by the Holy League. 300,000 Turks battled some 100,000 europeans (germans, poles, austrians); the europeans finally put an end to turkish threat to europe.

Known facts are that iran (Persia/Parthia) defeated rome not only in defensive wars but also offensive ones , Shapur declared himself the king of both Iranians and non-Iranians after the battle of Edessa

Please read some ancient history. Not once did the Parthians touch the city of Rome. Emperor Septimius Severus, who occupied Seleucia and Babylon, and then sacked Ctesiphon yet again in 197. The result of which led to the loss of Mesopotamia to the Roman Empire.

 

[BeyondHeretic]

Battle of Carrahae :

Parthian warriors:

The last time the asiatics threatened Europe was in the Battle of Vienna, when the Turkish plans for conquest of Europe was silenced by the Holy League. 300,000 Turks battled some 100,000 europeans (germans, poles, austrians); the europeans finally put an end to turkish threat to europe.

That's classic history guys like you must have read in college , if you read further you see white hans , scythians , goths and numerous Asiatic tribes have all went deep into Europe , that's why many Europeans have slant eyes

Please read some ancient history. Not once did the Parthians touch the city of Rome. Emperor Septimius Severus, who occupied Seleucia and Babylon, and then sacked Ctesiphon yet again in 197. The result of which led to the loss of Mesopotamia to the Roman Empire.

Parthians even took part in the roman civil war , fact , and doesn't matter if we touched rome or not , we burned Athens to the ground well before that

 

[flamer84]

Known facts are that iran (Persia/Parthia) defeated rome not only in defensive wars but also offensive ones , Shapur declared himself the king of both Iranians and non-Iranians after the battle of Edessa

Well that's nice but the fact remains that the persians never captured Rome or even Constantinople and the romans sacked and captured the persian capital 5 times,that's right 5 times! Speaks loudly about who was the top dog in the region doesn't it?