What's new

Road to Islamic State was paved by America's Faustian bargain with Saudi Wahhabism

1- I dont care who was abdulwahab. The point is whom to follow who brings clear proof and logic to you as to what is right or wrong.

2- When did anyone say everyone is bidati. The point in religion is to do whatever in it with proof from the Quran, life of the prophet and the rightly guided companions. If someone brings you authentic proof and logic without any bias then you should welcome it. If there are any difference of opinion choose what seems right to you.

3- No one can declare anyone wajib ul qatal and then kill anyone. Never have any great scholars of Islam claimed that. And no one can declare anyone kafir at the same time. These two can only be done by the muslim ruler or the qadi of sound Islamic knowledge appointed to carry out sentences according to the law of the land. And to your surprise I havent seen any other people more than pakistanis accusing other muslims to be kafir who arent even wahabi per se.

4- You know the stance of ahl al sunnah towards yazid. We have a concensus to neither praise nor curse him. His matter rests with Allah. All the fabrications and tweaks done to the story of the martyrdom of imam Hussain can no longer let us make a sound decision on the status of yazid. His contribution in this brutal martyrdom cannot be accurately measured. As i said you wont be asked why didnt you abuse or curse a person. But you will be accountable for why did you curse any person. So safe side we keep our silence in these matters when no one knows the complete truth.

5- My personal advice to you. Dont get drawn into the false propoganda that he said something against Ali. Most of his quotes are taken out of context. Another thing to note is that most of his quotes taken out of context were answers to the claims by shia exaggerating his status.

Now that was good and detailed reply, i appreciate that.

1. Yes one should follow who brings clear proof and logic to you as what is wrong or right. So give me proof that touching kabaa or maqaam e ibrahim is so big a shirk that wahabis placed a person there to call every body mushrik? With Quran and sunnah. Where it is forbidden to touch it bcz of love not bcz of anything else?

2. It seems right to me to touch kabaa and maqam e ibrahim or to kiss Quran, and it is not obligatory but im not doing shirk bcz of that. other examples can be given but my personal experince with wahabi saudis is enough. Since they are the flag-bearer of wahabism.

3. If that's what you think personally then it's appreciable.

4. That is a very very long debate and you cannot convince me to stop abusing him. Not for a single second about that yazid lanat ulla illeh. If you want me to put forward my arguments i will and that will be very long. You have the right to not to abuse him though. Its up to you. But my hate is extreme for him. If he was not the killer but ibn e ziyad was then when did yazeed removed him from the governorship of kuffa and when did he punished him? Never. I can never stop abusing a person who plundered madina and cause massacre and rape there. May Allah send him to the deepest hell.

5. About the nasbiayat of ibn taymiya i have no doubt. And i don't want to follow him even for a moment.

if you analyze the personality of ibn taimiyah and his writings you come to know that ibn taimiyah was a nasibi. let me cite you some examples:-
1/ shah abdul aziz dehalvi, one of the greatest scholars that sub continent has produced, who wrote world famous books against shias named taufay ahtna ashariya said in his fatwas:-

ibn taimiyah wrote abominable things against ahl bait in his books, which sadden hearts of ahl sunnah( fatwai aziziya)

2/ ibn tamiyah wrote

We read in Minhaj al-Sunnah, Volume 8 page 205:

وأما إسلام علي فهل يكون مخرجا له من الكفر على قولين

There are two opinions as to whether Ali's conversion to Islam released him from kufr or not"
Minhaj al-Sunnah, Volume 4 page 137:

وعلي رضي الله عنه كان قصده أن يتزوج عليها فله في أذاها غرض

“Ali intended to marry so as to hurt her (Fatima) on purpose.”
2/ Relevantly, comments like the above that we cited that were so outrageous that we read in Lisan al-Mizan, by ibn Hajar, Volume 6, page 320:

"The exaggeration in refuting the Rafidhi text has sometimes taken him to towards belittling Ali (ra)"
3/ a very famous hadith about the merits of Ali recorded by many authentic chain of narrations was rejected by ibn taimiyah without any reason. sheikh al albani debated on this in these words
Albaani commented in 'Silsila Sahiha' volume 5, page 222 as follows:

فمن العجيب حقا أن يتجرأ شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية على إنكار هذا الحديث و تكذيبه في " منهاج السنة "

“It is really strange that Sheikh ul Islam dared to deny this hadith and deemed it a lie in his book Minhaj al-Sunnah”

3/ it is common knowledge that our imam , imam abu hanifa(ra) was student of imam jafar as sadiq, the great grandson of Ali(ra). ibn taimiyah rejected it without any proof. allama shibli noamani (ra) wrote that it was foolishness of ibn taimiyah to write this lie, as all knowledge of sunni fiqh came from the house of Ali(ra).
likewise, Hafiz Ahmad bin Sidiq (d. 1354 H) records in 'Fath al-Malik al-Ali' page 109:

غلاة النواصب كابن تيمية وأضرابه

"The extremist Nawasib such as Ibn Taimiyah and those to him."

Allamah Hasan bin Ali al-Saqqaf (born in 1961) is a contemporary Sunni scholar of modern day. He is the chief of Imam Nawawi center in Jordan. He has been the student of some esteemed Sunni scholars such as al-Azeemi (the margin writer of the book Sahih Ibn Khuzaima), Hafiz Ghemari and Sheikh Bouti. Allamah Saqqaf in the margin of the book 'Sahih Sharh Aqida Tahawya' page 651 states:

وممن سار على درب بني أمية وناصب سيدنا عليا والسيدة فاطمة وآل البيت الأطهار وطعن فيهم ابن تيمية الحراني وأصحابه النواصب

"From those who followed the path of Bani Ummaya and practiced Nasb against Ali, Lady Fatima, Ahlulbayt and attacked them is Ibn Taimiyah al-Harani and his Nasibi companions."


it is proved with many more examples that ibn taimiyah was a nasibi, a hater of Ali and ahl bait, except the wives of Rasool SAW.

Saudi's are sponsor and root cause of terrorism, extremism and rift between muslims. You can search it on internet and can find tons of material. Only wahabis are blind to see that.

So that's my point of view. And you have the right to reject it (which you will). Wahabis just quote the ayat of "To you your religion and to me mine" and "there is no compulsion in religion", but they do not let others keep their point of view and also try to force there views on others by getting extremist. Still most of the terrorist groups are wahabis, and which IDEOLOGY is making them extremist i think you might know better.
 
No what ISIS is doing it's not Islam you are don't have any idea about Islam.

Hah! You are so funny!! To quote:
Those talking piece of shit against Salafism or what MUHAMMAD BIN ABDUL WAHAB promoted or said or wrote have actually not even read his work. So try to proof the wrong from Quran and Sunnah if you can't than please keep quite.
 
Now that was good and detailed reply, i appreciate that.

1. Yes one should follow who brings clear proof and logic to you as what is wrong or right. So give me proof that touching kabaa or maqaam e ibrahim is so big a shirk that wahabis placed a person there to call every body mushrik? With Quran and sunnah. Where it is forbidden to touch it bcz of love not bcz of anything else?

2. It seems right to me to touch kabaa and maqam e ibrahim or to kiss Quran, and it is not obligatory but im not doing shirk bcz of that. other examples can be given but my personal experince with wahabi saudis is enough. Since they are the flag-bearer of wahabism.

3. If that's what you think personally then it's appreciable.

4. That is a very very long debate and you cannot convince me to stop abusing him. Not for a single second about that yazid lanat ulla illeh. If you want me to put forward my arguments i will and that will be very long. You have the right to not to abuse him though. Its up to you. But my hate is extreme for him. If he was not the killer but ibn e ziyad was then when did yazeed removed him from the governorship of kuffa and when did he punished him? Never. I can never stop abusing a person who plundered madina and cause massacre and rape there. May Allah send him to the deepest hell.

5. About the nasbiayat of ibn taymiya i have no doubt. And i don't want to follow him even for a moment.

if you analyze the personality of ibn taimiyah and his writings you come to know that ibn taimiyah was a nasibi. let me cite you some examples:-
1/ shah abdul aziz dehalvi, one of the greatest scholars that sub continent has produced, who wrote world famous books against shias named taufay ahtna ashariya said in his fatwas:-

ibn taimiyah wrote abominable things against ahl bait in his books, which sadden hearts of ahl sunnah( fatwai aziziya)

2/ ibn tamiyah wrote

We read in Minhaj al-Sunnah, Volume 8 page 205:

وأما إسلام علي فهل يكون مخرجا له من الكفر على قولين

There are two opinions as to whether Ali's conversion to Islam released him from kufr or not"
Minhaj al-Sunnah, Volume 4 page 137:

وعلي رضي الله عنه كان قصده أن يتزوج عليها فله في أذاها غرض

“Ali intended to marry so as to hurt her (Fatima) on purpose.”
2/ Relevantly, comments like the above that we cited that were so outrageous that we read in Lisan al-Mizan, by ibn Hajar, Volume 6, page 320:

"The exaggeration in refuting the Rafidhi text has sometimes taken him to towards belittling Ali (ra)"
3/ a very famous hadith about the merits of Ali recorded by many authentic chain of narrations was rejected by ibn taimiyah without any reason. sheikh al albani debated on this in these words
Albaani commented in 'Silsila Sahiha' volume 5, page 222 as follows:

فمن العجيب حقا أن يتجرأ شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية على إنكار هذا الحديث و تكذيبه في " منهاج السنة "

“It is really strange that Sheikh ul Islam dared to deny this hadith and deemed it a lie in his book Minhaj al-Sunnah”

3/ it is common knowledge that our imam , imam abu hanifa(ra) was student of imam jafar as sadiq, the great grandson of Ali(ra). ibn taimiyah rejected it without any proof. allama shibli noamani (ra) wrote that it was foolishness of ibn taimiyah to write this lie, as all knowledge of sunni fiqh came from the house of Ali(ra).
likewise, Hafiz Ahmad bin Sidiq (d. 1354 H) records in 'Fath al-Malik al-Ali' page 109:

غلاة النواصب كابن تيمية وأضرابه

"The extremist Nawasib such as Ibn Taimiyah and those to him."

Allamah Hasan bin Ali al-Saqqaf (born in 1961) is a contemporary Sunni scholar of modern day. He is the chief of Imam Nawawi center in Jordan. He has been the student of some esteemed Sunni scholars such as al-Azeemi (the margin writer of the book Sahih Ibn Khuzaima), Hafiz Ghemari and Sheikh Bouti. Allamah Saqqaf in the margin of the book 'Sahih Sharh Aqida Tahawya' page 651 states:

وممن سار على درب بني أمية وناصب سيدنا عليا والسيدة فاطمة وآل البيت الأطهار وطعن فيهم ابن تيمية الحراني وأصحابه النواصب

"From those who followed the path of Bani Ummaya and practiced Nasb against Ali, Lady Fatima, Ahlulbayt and attacked them is Ibn Taimiyah al-Harani and his Nasibi companions."


it is proved with many more examples that ibn taimiyah was a nasibi, a hater of Ali and ahl bait, except the wives of Rasool SAW.

Saudi's are sponsor and root cause of terrorism, extremism and rift between muslims. You can search it on internet and can find tons of material. Only wahabis are blind to see that.

So that's my point of view. And you have the right to reject it (which you will). Wahabis just quote the ayat of "To you your religion and to me mine" and "there is no compulsion in religion", but they do not let others keep their point of view and also try to force there views on others by getting extremist. Still most of the terrorist groups are wahabis, and which IDEOLOGY is making them extremist i think you might know better.

1- I explained it to you in the previous posts. No guard over there is going to ask for each and every one's intention first and then let him touch and kiss the maqam e Ebrahim or the ka'baa. It is their responsibility as the caretakers of the holy places to not let people indulge in unnecessary or innovative behaviour. The point is prevention and the effects of the people that will see and follow you regardless of intention. It will not draw you closer to Allah or you cant force this way for Allah to grant you your wishes. If you do with this intention then it makes it an innovation because these are not one of the taught ways to draw closer to Allah or get good deeds. You also have a responsibility as to what impression you are giving to the other people who might be not knowledgeable enough or will fall for the whims of shaitaan. Ut is not practical to check everyone's intention so they will ask everyone to stop as it has no benefit as a whole. If there was any benefit one could understand. It is way too much harm than any good. Another thing is they do not stop everyone just for touching. If you start being extreme towards it then only they will advice. People still do not tend to stop and think what do they know.

2- It depends on your intention first and foremost. There is no benefit in it as I said. Your kissing or touching of it won't make you holy or better in anyway. Why not play the safe side and avoid it as a whole is the main point. Human are not infallible. You can portray your emotions in a way that won't damage your iman due to the whims of shaitaan and a way that is proven by the prophet and the companions which is always preferable to Allah. Why do we make dua in the words of the prophet or the words taught by Allah in the Quran said by other prophets because they are preferable when invoking Allah as they were used by his best of the creation.

3- This is not my personal choice. This is what islam teaches. This is what all the credible scholars of Islam have taught. This is what Abdulwahab and ibn Taymiyyah taught. This IS the way of Islam. When ignorant muslims become the judge, jury and executioner muslims themselves tend to blame the saudi ideology or the wahabi ideology which they never taught and you have to answer to Allah for your accusations.

4- You don't need to convince me as I don't have to answer for him nor for anyone who martyred the grandsons of the prophet. Many things and issues of that time has a big question mark over them and cannot be accurately answered by sunnis or shias. Even sunni scholars don't see him in a good light but avoid it as a whole to curse or abuse him as it will not bring us any benefit or won't make us better muslims.

5- If you don't want to follow Ibn taymiyyah it is up to you. But don't fall or endorse the accusations against him. Which makes you nothing different to the ideology you blame on the saudis of calling others mushrik or kaafir. Neither you nor me have the knowledge of the unseen and I can bring you quotes of senior and famous scholars who talk about his credibility. The efforts of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah began to bear fruit in his own time and have continued to do so until the present, affecting scholars and seekers of knowledge and Islamic groups that belong to Ahl al-Sunnah.The testimony of the imams of his own and subsequent eras makes clear to any fair-minded person the falseness of the claims that have been fabricated by the enemies of Islam and the enemies of the Sunnah against this prominent imam, and highlight his knowledge, understanding and strength of argument. Hence we may know the reason why the people of kufr and innovation fought against him, which was because he demolished their principles.

These words of praise and testimony in favour of this imam did not come only from his students and supporters but even his opponents testified that he surpassed others in knowledge and understanding and they even bore witness to his courage, generosity and jihad for the sake of Allaah in support of Islam.

a – Imam al-Dhahabi said listing his Shaykhs:

He is our Shaykh, the Shaykh of Islam, unrivalled in our time in terms of knowledge, courage, intelligence, spiritual enlightenment, generosity, sincerity towards the ummah, enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil, and learning hadeeth – he put a great deal of effort into seeking it and writing it down, and he examined the different categories of narrators and acquired knowledge that no one else acquired.

He excelled in Qur’aanic commentary (tafseer) and delved deeply into its subtle meanings. He derived meanings from it that no one else managed to do before him. He also excelled in hadeeth and in the memorization thereof; very few have memorized as much hadeeth as he memorized. He attributed ahaadeeth to their proper sources and narrators, and he was able to quote readily whatever he needed to establish proof. He surpassed all people in knowledge of fiqh and the views of different madhhabs, and the fatwas of the Sahaabah and Taabi’een, so much so that when he issued a fatwa he did not adhere to the view of a madhhab, rather he based his fatwa on whichever view was supported by the stronger evidence. He excelled in knowledge of Arabic language, and studied issues on the basis of rationality and reason. He studied the views of the philosophers and refuted their arguments and pointed out their mistakes and warned against them. He supported the Sunnah with the strongest evidence and proofs. He was harmed for the sake of Allaah by his opponents and persecuted for his support of the pure Sunnah, until Allaah caused him to prevail and caused the pious to unite in loving him and praying for him, and suppressed his enemies and guided men of other groups and sects through him. Allaah made kings and commanders inclined to follow him and obey him, and he revived Syria – and indeed Islam – through his efforts, when it was almost defeated, by urging the rulers to resist the Tatars, when people were harbouring doubts about Allaah and the believers were tried and shaken with a mighty shaking (cf. al-Ahzaab 33:10-11), and hypocrisy grew strong.

His good qualities are many, and he is too great for a man like me to talk about his life. If I were to swear an oath between the Corner and the Maqaam I would swear that I have never seen anyone like him, and that he has never seen anyone like himself.

See: Dhayl Tabaqaat al-Hanaabilah by Ibn Rajab al-Hanbali (4/390)

b- al-Mulla ‘Ali Qaari who said after quoting Ibn Hajar’s accusations against them and his criticism of their ‘aqeedah:

I say: Allaah protected them – i.e., Ibn al-Qayyim and his Shaykh Ibn Taymiyah – from this abhorrent accusation. The one who studies Sharh Manaazil al-Saa’ireen by Nadeem al-Baari al-Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah al-Ansaari, who is the Shaykh of Islam according to the Sufis, will clearly see that they were among Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah and are indeed among the awliya’ (close friends of Allaah) of this ummah. Among what he said in the book mentioned was the following:

“These words of Shaykh al-Islam highlight his position as a prominent scholar of Ahl al-Sunnah, and his status among scholars, and it demonstrates that he is innocent of what his Jahami enemies accused him of, that he likened Allaah to His creation, as they usually accused the scholars of hadeeth and Sunnah, just as the Raafidis accuse them of being Naasibis, and the Naasibis accuse them of being Raafidis,, and the Mu’tazilah accuse them of being anthropomorphists. That is a legacy of the enemies of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) who accused him and his companions of having invented a new religion. And this is a legacy of the scholars of hadeeth and Sunnah from their Prophet, that the people of falsehood give them offensive labels.

c -May Allaah be pleased with our Shaykh Abu’l-‘Abbaas ibn Taymiyah when he said:

If being a Naasibi means loving the family of Muhammad, then let the two races (of mankind and jinn) bear witness that I am a Naasibi.

d- It is most amazing that this man was the staunchest opponent of the innovators such as the Raafidis, Huloolis and Ittihaadis, whose writings on that are many and well known, whose fatwas concerning them are too numerous to count. How happy they would be to realize that there are people who accuse him of kufr and say that the one who does not regard him as a kaafir is a kaafir. The one who claims to have knowledge, if he has any reason or sense, should ponder the man’s words in his famous books, or hear them from honest and trustworthy narrators, so that he will put aside what he finds objectionable and warn others by way of sincerity, and praise him for the matters he got right, as the attitude of other scholars should be. If there was no good quality in him except the fact that his student was Shaykh Shams al-Deen ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah, the author of so many beneficial books, from which everyone has benefited, both those who agree with him and those who oppose him, that would be sufficient indication of his great status, so how about when his prominence in various fields of knowledge and his distinction in the study of the texts was affirmed by the prominent Shaafa’is of his time and others, in addition to the Hanbalis? No attention should be paid to the one who calls him a kaafir despite all these achievements, or who describes the one who calls him “Shaykh al-Islam” as a kaafir, and he should be ignored with regard to this matter; indeed he should be rebuked for saying that, until he comes back to the truth. Allaah speaks the truth and He guides to the right way; Allaah is sufficient for us and He is the best disposer of affairs.

Said and written by Ahmad ibn ‘Ali ibn Muhammad ibn Hajar al-Shaafa’i, may Allaah forgive him, on Friday 9 Rabee’ al-Awwal, 835 AH.

e- al-Haafiz Jalaal al-Deen al-Suyooti (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Ibn Taymiyah, the Shaykh, the imam, the ‘allaamah (great scholar), the hafiz, the critic, the faqeeh, the mujtahid, the brilliant mufassir, the Shaykh of Islam, the leader of ascetics, the unrivalled in our time, Taqiy al-Deen Abu’l-Abbaas Ahmad al-Mufti Shihaab al-Deen ‘Abd al-Haleem, the son of the imam and mujtahid Shaykh al-Islam Majd al-Deen ‘Abd al-Salaam ibn ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Abi’l-Qaasim al-Haraani.

One of the prominent figures, he was born in Rabee’ al-Awwal 661 AH, and he learned from Ibn Abi’l-Yasar, Ibn ‘Abd al-Daa’im, and some others.

He took an interest in hadeeth, and narrated and selected (sound ahaadeeth); he excelled in the study of narrators’ biographies, defects in ahaadeeth, fiqh, the sciences of Islam, ‘ilm al-kalaam and other fields.

He was a man of vast learning, one of the few brilliant scholars, ascetics and unique individuals. He wrote three hundred books, and he was tested and persecuted many times.

He died in the latter part of Dhu’l-Qa’dah 628 AH.

Tabaqaat al-Huffaaz (p. 516, 517.

And I can quote many more of the scholars of the early generation. If you have better knowledge than these early scholars then you can make your own decision. For me the words of these scholars are enough to find him credible. Also reviewing his work has made him more credible in my eyes.

We read in Minhaj al-Sunnah, Volume 8 page 205:

وأما إسلام علي فهل يكون مخرجا له من الكفر على قولين

There are two opinions as to whether Ali's conversion to Islam released him from kufr or not"
Minhaj al-Sunnah, Volume 4 page 137:

I am guessing that you have read his book so I will answer you in brief otherwise it can be a lengthy discussion. In this quote Ibn Taymiyyah was only refuting Al-Hilee's. Al-Hilee's made certain charges against the other Sahaba being idol worshipers so Ibn Taymiyyah brought two opinions as to how Islam may have released Ali from kufr and not to prove that Ali was a kaffir but to shatter Al-Hilee's allegations. This was a response to Al-Hilee's argument that first three caliph were idol worshippers before their conversion and Ali ra was Muwahhid from his childhood. He just applied two fiqh opinions on Ali's conversion for the sake of answering Rafidhi, not necessarily it was his own opinion. When u refute someone u argue by challenging the beliefs of your counterpart in contrast with the allegations made by him.

وعلي رضي الله عنه كان قصده أن يتزوج عليها فله في أذاها غرض

“Ali intended to marry so as to hurt her (Fatima) on purpose.”

In this statement he is again answering a Shia who said that Abu Bakr had angered Fatima and hurt the prophet. In this he is refuting the claims by saying that When Abu Bakr was the reason of Fatima's anger, then Abu Bakr did not had any intention to do something for his own sake. All he was doing is to save the money for poor and needy. But when Ali was the reason for Fatima's anger then Ali had his own requirement or need. He was not marrying for someone else, wal 'iyadh bilAllah, unlike Abu Bakr who was doing that for the sake of poor and needy and was just following Prophet's command. Now the argument was If if if Abu Bakr became Kaffir by hurting Prophet's daughter (hence hurting the Prophet), then what about the fact that Ali also hurt her having the fact that Abu Bakr's intention was to take care of poor and to implement Prophet's command on the other hand Ali's intention was to marry so as to fulfill his own need. When u refute someone you argue by challenging the beliefs of your counterpart in contrast with the allegations made by him. I can show you narrations of Fatima being hurt from shia books because most of them deny Fatima being hurt by Ali.

6 - The ayah 'To you your religion and to me mine' is to be meant for the non believers. We do not have a separate religion. You are free to keep your point and no one will argue until and unless they are from reliable sources and you try to understand the issue with an unbiased mind. Stop stereotyping the saudis, It is more easy for them to stereotype us Pakistanis as well but it will be not be of any good. We are bigger terrorists than them given the last 15 years of our wars within the country. Your personal beliefs are the reason you become extremist not being a saudi. We should follow the great example of Imam Ahmed ibn al Hanbal when dealing with our rulers than resorting to terrorism and causing more harm to the innocent citizens and their properties than the ruler.
 
1- I explained it to you in the previous posts. No guard over there is going to ask for each and every one's intention first and then let him touch and kiss the maqam e Ebrahim or the ka'baa. It is their responsibility as the caretakers of the holy places to not let people indulge in unnecessary or innovative behaviour. The point is prevention and the effects of the people that will see and follow you regardless of intention. It will not draw you closer to Allah or you cant force this way for Allah to grant you your wishes. If you do with this intention then it makes it an innovation because these are not one of the taught ways to draw closer to Allah or get good deeds. You also have a responsibility as to what impression you are giving to the other people who might be not knowledgeable enough or will fall for the whims of shaitaan. Ut is not practical to check everyone's intention so they will ask everyone to stop as it has no benefit as a whole. If there was any benefit one could understand. It is way too much harm than any good. Another thing is they do not stop everyone just for touching. If you start being extreme towards it then only they will advice. People still do not tend to stop and think what do they know.

2- It depends on your intention first and foremost. There is no benefit in it as I said. Your kissing or touching of it won't make you holy or better in anyway. Why not play the safe side and avoid it as a whole is the main point. Human are not infallible. You can portray your emotions in a way that won't damage your iman due to the whims of shaitaan and a way that is proven by the prophet and the companions which is always preferable to Allah. Why do we make dua in the words of the prophet or the words taught by Allah in the Quran said by other prophets because they are preferable when invoking Allah as they were used by his best of the creation.

3- This is not my personal choice. This is what islam teaches. This is what all the credible scholars of Islam have taught. This is what Abdulwahab and ibn Taymiyyah taught. This IS the way of Islam. When ignorant muslims become the judge, jury and executioner muslims themselves tend to blame the saudi ideology or the wahabi ideology which they never taught and you have to answer to Allah for your accusations.

4- You don't need to convince me as I don't have to answer for him nor for anyone who martyred the grandsons of the prophet. Many things and issues of that time has a big question mark over them and cannot be accurately answered by sunnis or shias. Even sunni scholars don't see him in a good light but avoid it as a whole to curse or abuse him as it will not bring us any benefit or won't make us better muslims.

5- If you don't want to follow Ibn taymiyyah it is up to you. But don't fall or endorse the accusations against him. Which makes you nothing different to the ideology you blame on the saudis of calling others mushrik or kaafir. Neither you nor me have the knowledge of the unseen and I can bring you quotes of senior and famous scholars who talk about his credibility. The efforts of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah began to bear fruit in his own time and have continued to do so until the present, affecting scholars and seekers of knowledge and Islamic groups that belong to Ahl al-Sunnah.The testimony of the imams of his own and subsequent eras makes clear to any fair-minded person the falseness of the claims that have been fabricated by the enemies of Islam and the enemies of the Sunnah against this prominent imam, and highlight his knowledge, understanding and strength of argument. Hence we may know the reason why the people of kufr and innovation fought against him, which was because he demolished their principles.

These words of praise and testimony in favour of this imam did not come only from his students and supporters but even his opponents testified that he surpassed others in knowledge and understanding and they even bore witness to his courage, generosity and jihad for the sake of Allaah in support of Islam.

a – Imam al-Dhahabi said listing his Shaykhs:

He is our Shaykh, the Shaykh of Islam, unrivalled in our time in terms of knowledge, courage, intelligence, spiritual enlightenment, generosity, sincerity towards the ummah, enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil, and learning hadeeth – he put a great deal of effort into seeking it and writing it down, and he examined the different categories of narrators and acquired knowledge that no one else acquired.

He excelled in Qur’aanic commentary (tafseer) and delved deeply into its subtle meanings. He derived meanings from it that no one else managed to do before him. He also excelled in hadeeth and in the memorization thereof; very few have memorized as much hadeeth as he memorized. He attributed ahaadeeth to their proper sources and narrators, and he was able to quote readily whatever he needed to establish proof. He surpassed all people in knowledge of fiqh and the views of different madhhabs, and the fatwas of the Sahaabah and Taabi’een, so much so that when he issued a fatwa he did not adhere to the view of a madhhab, rather he based his fatwa on whichever view was supported by the stronger evidence. He excelled in knowledge of Arabic language, and studied issues on the basis of rationality and reason. He studied the views of the philosophers and refuted their arguments and pointed out their mistakes and warned against them. He supported the Sunnah with the strongest evidence and proofs. He was harmed for the sake of Allaah by his opponents and persecuted for his support of the pure Sunnah, until Allaah caused him to prevail and caused the pious to unite in loving him and praying for him, and suppressed his enemies and guided men of other groups and sects through him. Allaah made kings and commanders inclined to follow him and obey him, and he revived Syria – and indeed Islam – through his efforts, when it was almost defeated, by urging the rulers to resist the Tatars, when people were harbouring doubts about Allaah and the believers were tried and shaken with a mighty shaking (cf. al-Ahzaab 33:10-11), and hypocrisy grew strong.

His good qualities are many, and he is too great for a man like me to talk about his life. If I were to swear an oath between the Corner and the Maqaam I would swear that I have never seen anyone like him, and that he has never seen anyone like himself.

See: Dhayl Tabaqaat al-Hanaabilah by Ibn Rajab al-Hanbali (4/390)

b- al-Mulla ‘Ali Qaari who said after quoting Ibn Hajar’s accusations against them and his criticism of their ‘aqeedah:

I say: Allaah protected them – i.e., Ibn al-Qayyim and his Shaykh Ibn Taymiyah – from this abhorrent accusation. The one who studies Sharh Manaazil al-Saa’ireen by Nadeem al-Baari al-Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah al-Ansaari, who is the Shaykh of Islam according to the Sufis, will clearly see that they were among Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah and are indeed among the awliya’ (close friends of Allaah) of this ummah. Among what he said in the book mentioned was the following:

“These words of Shaykh al-Islam highlight his position as a prominent scholar of Ahl al-Sunnah, and his status among scholars, and it demonstrates that he is innocent of what his Jahami enemies accused him of, that he likened Allaah to His creation, as they usually accused the scholars of hadeeth and Sunnah, just as the Raafidis accuse them of being Naasibis, and the Naasibis accuse them of being Raafidis,, and the Mu’tazilah accuse them of being anthropomorphists. That is a legacy of the enemies of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) who accused him and his companions of having invented a new religion. And this is a legacy of the scholars of hadeeth and Sunnah from their Prophet, that the people of falsehood give them offensive labels.

c -May Allaah be pleased with our Shaykh Abu’l-‘Abbaas ibn Taymiyah when he said:

If being a Naasibi means loving the family of Muhammad, then let the two races (of mankind and jinn) bear witness that I am a Naasibi.

d- It is most amazing that this man was the staunchest opponent of the innovators such as the Raafidis, Huloolis and Ittihaadis, whose writings on that are many and well known, whose fatwas concerning them are too numerous to count. How happy they would be to realize that there are people who accuse him of kufr and say that the one who does not regard him as a kaafir is a kaafir. The one who claims to have knowledge, if he has any reason or sense, should ponder the man’s words in his famous books, or hear them from honest and trustworthy narrators, so that he will put aside what he finds objectionable and warn others by way of sincerity, and praise him for the matters he got right, as the attitude of other scholars should be. If there was no good quality in him except the fact that his student was Shaykh Shams al-Deen ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah, the author of so many beneficial books, from which everyone has benefited, both those who agree with him and those who oppose him, that would be sufficient indication of his great status, so how about when his prominence in various fields of knowledge and his distinction in the study of the texts was affirmed by the prominent Shaafa’is of his time and others, in addition to the Hanbalis? No attention should be paid to the one who calls him a kaafir despite all these achievements, or who describes the one who calls him “Shaykh al-Islam” as a kaafir, and he should be ignored with regard to this matter; indeed he should be rebuked for saying that, until he comes back to the truth. Allaah speaks the truth and He guides to the right way; Allaah is sufficient for us and He is the best disposer of affairs.

Said and written by Ahmad ibn ‘Ali ibn Muhammad ibn Hajar al-Shaafa’i, may Allaah forgive him, on Friday 9 Rabee’ al-Awwal, 835 AH.

e- al-Haafiz Jalaal al-Deen al-Suyooti (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Ibn Taymiyah, the Shaykh, the imam, the ‘allaamah (great scholar), the hafiz, the critic, the faqeeh, the mujtahid, the brilliant mufassir, the Shaykh of Islam, the leader of ascetics, the unrivalled in our time, Taqiy al-Deen Abu’l-Abbaas Ahmad al-Mufti Shihaab al-Deen ‘Abd al-Haleem, the son of the imam and mujtahid Shaykh al-Islam Majd al-Deen ‘Abd al-Salaam ibn ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Abi’l-Qaasim al-Haraani.

One of the prominent figures, he was born in Rabee’ al-Awwal 661 AH, and he learned from Ibn Abi’l-Yasar, Ibn ‘Abd al-Daa’im, and some others.

He took an interest in hadeeth, and narrated and selected (sound ahaadeeth); he excelled in the study of narrators’ biographies, defects in ahaadeeth, fiqh, the sciences of Islam, ‘ilm al-kalaam and other fields.

He was a man of vast learning, one of the few brilliant scholars, ascetics and unique individuals. He wrote three hundred books, and he was tested and persecuted many times.

He died in the latter part of Dhu’l-Qa’dah 628 AH.

Tabaqaat al-Huffaaz (p. 516, 517.

And I can quote many more of the scholars of the early generation. If you have better knowledge than these early scholars then you can make your own decision. For me the words of these scholars are enough to find him credible. Also reviewing his work has made him more credible in my eyes.



I am guessing that you have read his book so I will answer you in brief otherwise it can be a lengthy discussion. In this quote Ibn Taymiyyah was only refuting Al-Hilee's. Al-Hilee's made certain charges against the other Sahaba being idol worshipers so Ibn Taymiyyah brought two opinions as to how Islam may have released Ali from kufr and not to prove that Ali was a kaffir but to shatter Al-Hilee's allegations. This was a response to Al-Hilee's argument that first three caliph were idol worshippers before their conversion and Ali ra was Muwahhid from his childhood. He just applied two fiqh opinions on Ali's conversion for the sake of answering Rafidhi, not necessarily it was his own opinion. When u refute someone u argue by challenging the beliefs of your counterpart in contrast with the allegations made by him.



In this statement he is again answering a Shia who said that Abu Bakr had angered Fatima and hurt the prophet. In this he is refuting the claims by saying that When Abu Bakr was the reason of Fatima's anger, then Abu Bakr did not had any intention to do something for his own sake. All he was doing is to save the money for poor and needy. But when Ali was the reason for Fatima's anger then Ali had his own requirement or need. He was not marrying for someone else, wal 'iyadh bilAllah, unlike Abu Bakr who was doing that for the sake of poor and needy and was just following Prophet's command. Now the argument was If if if Abu Bakr became Kaffir by hurting Prophet's daughter (hence hurting the Prophet), then what about the fact that Ali also hurt her having the fact that Abu Bakr's intention was to take care of poor and to implement Prophet's command on the other hand Ali's intention was to marry so as to fulfill his own need. When u refute someone you argue by challenging the beliefs of your counterpart in contrast with the allegations made by him. I can show you narrations of Fatima being hurt from shia books because most of them deny Fatima being hurt by Ali.

6 - The ayah 'To you your religion and to me mine' is to be meant for the non believers. We do not have a separate religion. You are free to keep your point and no one will argue until and unless they are from reliable sources and you try to understand the issue with an unbiased mind. Stop stereotyping the saudis, It is more easy for them to stereotype us Pakistanis as well but it will be not be of any good. We are bigger terrorists than them given the last 15 years of our wars within the country. Your personal beliefs are the reason you become extremist not being a saudi. We should follow the great example of Imam Ahmed ibn al Hanbal when dealing with our rulers than resorting to terrorism and causing more harm to the innocent citizens and their properties than the ruler.

1,2. Touching them doesn't makes one kafir or musrik, dont force your ideology on us. No gaurd over there has the right to call others Mushrik and has no right to stop people. Absolutely not. That's why we hate wahabis. If you placed a glass over maqaam e ibrahim and put gold on kabaa and build tall buildings when its clearly forbidden then it makes you a bidati also. So this argument is extremely bogus. ANd bcz of whims of sahitaan you people call others mushirk there? for touching kabaa and maqaam e ibrahim? Sadkay jawaa'n.

3. The problem is , action speaks louder than words.

4. I will keep cursing that lanati till my last breadth and may Allah send him to the deepest hell. I take positions and i don't stay neutral on this event. Hazrat Ali RA said: "For those who refused to side with any party, Hazrat Ali or his enemies, He said: They have forsaken religion and are of no use to infidelity also." I cannot stay neutral.

5. This is my complete point of view, except about ibn taymiya.



6. Saudi arabia calls the pilgrims mushrik and hopes that they will be soft towards it? Their destruction of historical building and also trying to destroy the roza of Rasool SAW and their funding all over the muslim world to these extremist madrisahs created those monsters which are now cutting our throats. Look what saudis and americans did in libya and made it into a shit hole. Go to any forum and do a research about that topic. I don't expect you to talk neutrally about saudia and you cant expect me i think.
 
Last edited:
1- 5- when did i say touching it is kufr. Dont push the conversation in a circle. I explain it to you with logic but still you are repeating the same statement again and again. What will you gain or miss if you touch or kiss these things. NOTHING. And they do not call the people mushrik or kaafir. They stop them by saying haraam or shirk not kaafir or mushrik. Your personal vandetta has let you twist the words. You call them terrorists when we have more pakistanis who are terrorists than saudis. Then you should propogate against pakistanis with tge same intensity. Pakistanis are the ones doing terrorism in Pakistan not saudis. So first point the fingers towards ourselves. No saudi has come and suicide bombed any place in pakistan. It is easy to blame others especially pakistanis are expert in it from politicians to normal people. Which historical building they have destroyed? And dont falsely propogate the wrong news of demolishing the roza e rusool. If you are believe the newspaper also believe all muslims are terrorists and islam is cult. Every country involved in a conflict funds its allies. Saudi fund their allies similarly. It is upto the mullas in pakistan what personal agenda they are gonna pursue with this funding. The pakistanis are to blame because they are encouraging terrorism. If you have a problem ask your govt to block their funds. No saudi mullah has given fatwa to do jihad in pakistan. Your mullahs have given fatwa. Stop your idiotic claims. I can go on and on. Why do you also fund kashmiri to fight against indians if funding is considered as terrorism.

2- Yes. Actions speak louder than words. Then show me when ibn taymiyyah or abdulwahab have themsleves killed someone or ordered to kill someone if a person personally thinks he is a kaafir. Dont be a hypocrite and place false accusations on people. You are accusing so the responsibility of proof is on you. Present it.

4- Yeah. Whatever upto you. You were oblidged to take sidea if you were alive at that time. If something of this sorts happens in your lifetime then it is important for you to take sides. Your taking of any side now wont make any difference.

5- cant watch the videos. I have quoted all the bst scholars who engaged with ibn taymiyyah or had a different concept from him. All have words of praise for him. If you have better knowledge as to what kind of a muslim he was when you havent even met a person or observed his actions. You surely make yourself an ignorant and arrogant person denying the most obvious facts.
 
1- 5- when did i say touching it is kufr. Dont push the conversation in a circle. I explain it to you with logic but still you are repeating the same statement again and again. What will you gain or miss if you touch or kiss these things. NOTHING. And they do not call the people mushrik or kaafir. They stop them by saying haraam or shirk not kaafir or mushrik. Your personal vandetta has let you twist the words. You call them terrorists when we have more pakistanis who are terrorists than saudis. Then you should propogate against pakistanis with tge same intensity. Pakistanis are the ones doing terrorism in Pakistan not saudis. So first point the fingers towards ourselves. No saudi has come and suicide bombed any place in pakistan. It is easy to blame others especially pakistanis are expert in it from politicians to normal people. Which historical building they have destroyed? And dont falsely propogate the wrong news of demolishing the roza e rusool. If you are believe the newspaper also believe all muslims are terrorists and islam is cult. Every country involved in a conflict funds its allies. Saudi fund their allies similarly. It is upto the mullas in pakistan what personal agenda they are gonna pursue with this funding. The pakistanis are to blame because they are encouraging terrorism. If you have a problem ask your govt to block their funds. No saudi mullah has given fatwa to do jihad in pakistan. Your mullahs have given fatwa. Stop your idiotic claims. I can go on and on. Why do you also fund kashmiri to fight against indians if funding is considered as terrorism.

2- Yes. Actions speak louder than words. Then show me when ibn taymiyyah or abdulwahab have themsleves killed someone or ordered to kill someone if a person personally thinks he is a kaafir. Dont be a hypocrite and place false accusations on people. You are accusing so the responsibility of proof is on you. Present it.

4- Yeah. Whatever upto you. You were oblidged to take sidea if you were alive at that time. If something of this sorts happens in your lifetime then it is important for you to take sides. Your taking of any side now wont make any difference.

5- cant watch the videos. I have quoted all the bst scholars who engaged with ibn taymiyyah or had a different concept from him. All have words of praise for him. If you have better knowledge as to what kind of a muslim he was when you havent even met a person or observed his actions. You surely make yourself an ignorant and arrogant person denying the most obvious facts.

1-5. Your champion of wahabi state saudia arabia is calling it shirk. so Prove it from Quran that touching kabaa and maqam e ibrahim is shirk. Don't take it anywhere else if you dont want to go it in circles. So don't counter question, just answer my question. Tall buildings are also prohibitted in isalm and your thekedars of islam have constructed them just infront to kabaa, does that not make them a biditi or kafir or mushrik (whichever you like to call)? Just prove from Quran the point i am talking about. If you dont want to go in circles.
Or you can tell me that they are wrong at this point.

2. I was talking about you wahabis who are killing the muslims all over the world and cutting their heads off. ISIS is the latest wahabi example. Your wahabi state saudi arabia destroyed a complete country named Libya and made it a shit hole.

3. So that means we should not say anything bad about Halaku khan also since we were not present at that time, and our taking of any side now wont make any difference, hy na? History tells us lessons which you guys are not open to. Bcz you guys CANT CHOOSE A SIDE. or why take a side against abdullah ibn saba since you were not present in his lifetime?


4. What do i talk about the nasibi person who even forbade people from visiting the grave of Rasool SAW. Does this type of guy deserve to be followed? Not even for a moment. I have also quoted you about the point of view of scholars about him and also can point more about him.


OK lets end this debate at the proof which you are going to give me for my first point by clearly proving it form QURAN that its SHIRK to touch them bcz of love and aqeedat.

Keep it in mind that your wahabi state has just build a huge building just infront of kabaa when it is highly forbiden, and a BIDAT.
 
When ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas saw Mu’aawiyah ibn Abi Sufyaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) touching the two northern corners of the Ka’bah, he told him not to do that. Mu’aawiyah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said to him: “No part of the House should be ignored.’ Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “ ‘Indeed in the Messenger of Allaah (Muhammad) you have a good example to follow” [al-Ahzaab 33:21 – interpretation of the meaning]. And I saw the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) touching the two Yemeni corners,” meaning the Yemeni Corner and the Black Stone. So Mu’aawiyah accepted what Ibn ‘Abbaas said.

This is for touching the Kabaa let alone kissing it let alone kissing the maqam e Ebrahim.

I never said it was shirk. You won't leave your position of convenience because you are out of perspective. You might not know but it can count as shirk. Many people commit shirk without knowing it. Improving your prayer for someone else is also a form of shirk. Everything you do in the haram is part of your ibada and you just cannot invent things not proven by the prophet. So you tell me do you have love and aqeedat to the kabaa and maqam e ebrahim more than the prophet? or do you know about more ways to get close to Allah than the prophet? If you think this is a thing to be done out of love and aqeedat, Are you saying that the prophet did not have love or aqeedat to these things or he didn't know of ways to show his aqeedat.
خدا نخواستہ

You can't state me one valid Islamic reason why to do it. And if you can why didn't the prophet do it? Give me proof and I will oblige. It is a religious site and anything you do there as a form of ibada, love or aqeedat should be part of the religion and we have an example to follow. The problem with most muslims these days is they don't understand what is part of religion and what is not. Most of the attitudes are what is the objection if we kiss that or that we might get good deeds and Allah will hear us better. There is no room for assumptions. Knowledgeable muslims work with proof and logic.

Very cleverly you are ditching my questions to which you have no answer to. Why dont you answer one by one or am I the only one answering them one by one.

Just don't talk about saudia. First look at ourselves then blame someone else. No Saudi fought in Libya. US removed Gaddafi not Saudia Einstein.

I just got an idea of your Islamic knowledge claiming making buildings is 'highly forbidden' and 'innovation'. lol. Care to prove it. So building tall buildings is haraam but when your people go to shrines to pray to dead people or go to peer baba to get their wishes fulfilled is fine right. I will some it up for you. Everything with others is just plain wrong and Pakistani people are plain right. all their miseries are caused by India and Saudia.
 
Last edited:
I never said it was shirk. You won't leave your position of convenience because you are out of perspective. You might not know but it can count as shirk. Many people commit shirk without knowing it. Improving your prayer for someone else is also a form of shirk. Everything you do in the haram is part of your ibada and you just cannot invent things not proven by the prophet. So you tell me do you have love and aqeedat to the kabaa and maqam e ebrahim more than the prophet? or do you know about more ways to get close to Allah than the prophet? If you think this is a thing to be done out of love and aqeedat, Are you saying that the prophet did not have love or aqeedat to these things or he didn't know of ways to show his aqeedat.
خدا نخواستہ

You can't state me one valid Islamic reason why to do it. And if you can why didn't the prophet do it? Give me proof and I will oblige. It is a religious site and anything you do there as a form of ibada, love or aqeedat should be part of the religion and we have an example to follow. The problem with most muslims these days is they don't understand what is part of religion and what is not. Most of the attitudes are what is the objection if we kiss that or that we might get good deeds and Allah will hear us better. There is no room for assumptions. Knowledgeable muslims work with proof and logic.

Very cleverly you are ditching my questions to which you have no answer to. Why dont you answer one by one or am I the only one answering them one by one.

Just don't talk about saudia. First look at ourselves then blame someone else. No Saudi fought in Libya. US removed Gaddafi not Saudia Einstein.

I just got an idea of your Islamic knowledge claiming making buildings is 'highly forbidden' and 'innovation'. lol. Care to prove it. So building tall buildings is haraam but when your people go to shrines to pray to dead people or go to peer baba to get their wishes fulfilled is fine right. I will some it up for you. Everything with others is just plain wrong and Pakistani people are plain right. all their miseries are caused by India and Saudia.

:-) oh my God, still not answering my question. Prove it that it's shirk. And why putting glass over maqam e ibrahim is not shirk or putting gold ladden cloth over kabaa is not ? I am asking you prove it is shirk and you are telling me that Rasool SAW touched one part only. Nabi SAW didn't put glass on maqaam e ibrahim too, so call that act shirk too and also raising tall buildings. Your crow cannot be white:-). I am asking you again and again bcz you guys claim to be champions of anti bidat. I am too anti bidat but the bidat which is bad and which is prohibited like visiting peer baba or grave worshiping:what:

Only US removed Gaddaffi ? Go check the involement of saudis and arabs in the conflict of libya and it will surprise you, Darwin.

Tall buildings as a sign and it must be avoided:
Sign of Lat Hour :Tall Buildings in Arab World | thequranfoundation

Among the minor signs of the hour, the Messenger (Peace and blessings be upon him) said:

When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah.
[Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 2 :: Hadith 47 ]



Saudi arabia the supporter of terrorism in the muslim world

Iraq crisis: How Saudi Arabia helped Isis take over the north of the country | Comment | Voices | The Independent

Saudi Arabia (white Daesh) is the father of Isis, says writer | Media | The Guardian
 
Last edited:
@Baloch Pakistani


I already proved it to you by the narration. You are hard bent on pretending not to accept it. I proved it to you it is an 'innovation' and 'leads' to shirk. I quoted you a narration and dont let trying to prove me wrong is gonna make you left out from the truth. I reason with proof while you are doing the contrary and expecting me to believe it. I also mentioned before that it is important and the responsibility of the caretakers of these holy places to clear muslims of such acts that will lead to innovation or extremely shirk. Was it not clear enough? Why dont you prove it to me that it is allowed and will not lead to shirk. The sahaba have taken similar decisions to save muslims of falling into innovations and shirk.

Wow just wow. Putting a cover over is shirk? And glass over maqam e ebrahim? Seriously! It isnt even close to the concept at hand. It is not a religious act. Thank god they have covered it. Otherwise people like you would kiss the slate out of it. While kissing and touching adds to the religious acts we are taught in order to get good deeds or draw closer to Allah. And the prophet said anything that is 'added' to the 'religion' (not the ka'baa or the maqam e ebrahim) is an innovation and every innovation is going astray. Why dont you take the Islam that is given to us instead of asking why we cant kiss or touch. What has been left by the prophet is left for the good. Didnt he has the most love for the kabaa as it was again built by his great great grand fathers.
I told you already every country chooses and funds a side in every conflict. Pakistan has done that so does saudia and every relevant country in the world. And that is an Arab conflict and saudia is very much involved. There isnt only saudi backed grouos fighting in libya. There are too many small groups fighting to takeover. And saudia didnt strip them of a government. US did. So who is responsible for the power vacuum.

Where does it say that do not build tall buildings. Where does it say that it is highly forbidden and an innovation. There are other signs of the day of judgement. Why dont you stop them as well or criticize countries and people involved in it. The prophet is mentioning a sign of the day being close. He is not exactly mentioning it as a bad sign compared to others he has mentioned. Why dont talk about them. Or does saudia itches too bad.

Yeah right. Dont you still get it. The west has always being on an agenda against saudia. There isnt a week passes by and they havent falsely propogated against them. These articles are all theories and the personal view of the writer. If they were a fact they would have already sanctioned saudia or taken the matter to them.

I am answering all your questions btw. While you are only choosing mine which suits you.
 
Last edited:
@Baloch Pakistani


I already proved it to you by the narration. You are hard bent on pretending not to accept it. I proved it to you it is an innovation and leads to shirk. I quoted you a narration and dont let trying to prove me wrong is gonna make you left out from the truth. I reason with proof while you are doing the contrary and expecting me to believe it. I also mentioned before that it is important and the responsibility of the caretakers of these holy places to clear muslims of such acts that will lead to innovation or extremely shirk. Was it not clear enough? Why dont you prove it to me that it is allowed and will not lead to shirk. The sahaba have taken similar decisions to save muslims of falling into innovations and shirk.

Wow just wow. Putting a cover over is shirk? And glass over maqam e ebrahim? Seriously! It isnt even close to the concept at hand. It is not a religious act. Thank god they have covered it. Otherwise people like you would kiss the slate out of it. While kissing and touching adds to the religious acts we are taught in order to get good deeds or draw closer to Allah. And the prophet said anything that is 'added' to the 'religion' (not the ka'baa or the maqam e ebrahim) is an innovation and every innovation is going astray. Why dont you take the Islam that is given to us instead of asking why we cant kiss or touch. What has been left by the prophet is left for the good. Didnt he has the most love for the kabaa as it was again built by his great great grand fathers.
I told you already every country chooses and funds a side in every conflict. Pakistan has done that so does saudia and every relevant country in the world. And that is an Arab conflict and saudia is very much involved. There isnt only saudi backed grouos fighting in libya. There are too many small groups fighting to takeover. And saudia didnt strip them of a government. US did. So who is responsible for the power vacuum.

Where does it say that do not build tall buildings. Where does it say that it is highly forbidden and an innovation. There are other signs of the day of judgement. Why dont you stop them as well or criticize countries and people involved in it. The prophet is mentioning a sign of the day being close. He is not exactly mentioning it as a bad sign compared to others he has mentioned. Why dont talk about them. Or does saudia itches too bad.

Yeah right. Dont you still get it. The west has always being on an agenda against saudia. There isnt a week passes by and they havent falsely propogated against them. These articles are all theories and the personal view of the writer. If they were a fact they would have already sanctioned saudia or taken the matter to them.

I am answering all your questions btw. While you are only choosing mine which suits you.

As for saudia, you already know what people think (even on this forum) about that anti islamic family named aal e saud the patronizers of wahabis . But you are blind since you are a wahabi. Those brethren of yahoodis and israel are not hidden from anyone now. Gone are the days when they were sacred cows. West is on agenda against their own pawns? :crazy::sarcastic:

You are just a laughable pity material. Reason with proof? Are you blind or deaf or dumb? Where is the damn proof that its SHIRK you Sumoun Bukmun Umyun? Not Touching kabaa couldnt be proved with your wahabi logic. By Allah, a wahabi is more dumb than i thought he was. But what can i say when our fourth caliph has already said that:

"Don't ever argue with an idiot....
they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."


Now go hang yourself (blast will be more appropriate for a wahabi though) bcz we are going to touch it and kiss it. And we are not doing shirk at all (not obligatory but not forbidden).
 
When ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas saw Mu’aawiyah ibn Abi Sufyaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) touching the two northern corners of the Ka’bah, he told him not to do that. Mu’aawiyah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said to him: “No part of the House should be ignored.’ Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “ ‘Indeed in the Messenger of Allaah (Muhammad) you have a good example to follow” [al-Ahzaab 33:21 – interpretation of the meaning]. And I saw the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) touching the two Yemeni corners,” meaning the Yemeni Corner and the Black Stone. So Mu’aawiyah accepted what Ibn ‘Abbaas said.

This is for touching the Kabaa let alone kissing it let alone kissing the maqam e Ebrahim.

Only a fool like you to whom building is haram (lol) can refute the words of a narration. If following actions with proof is wahabism or whatever then I am proud to be that. Your ignorance is applaudable. You wanna kiss it or touch it doesnt bother me. Instead dont forget to lick it as well. Correcting you wont stop the thousands who do these actions anyway. And i made my point clearly and credibly. You seriously have to be a tool to deny that. Can you simply read or should i send you an audio. It is clearly mentioned above not to be done. What else do you need? You think you have more knowledge than ibn Abbas?

I proved it to you it is an innovation and with little common sense you can understand it can lead to shirk. But you are too thick than I imagined. And your islamic knowledge is hilariously laughable.

You dont like the saudis. Good for you. Like they care about what you think of them. They are the inheritors of this religion and following it since 1400 years and hence proven that they have better knowledge than a nation who a couple of generations ago reverted to islam. Suddenly you are trying to be the real champions of islam. In a country where people worship dead people and women go to fake peers to get pregnant. First fix that and then call others yahoodis. If you were that eligible the religion would have been given to your people. Their forefathers were following islam when yours were most probably worshipping fire. Try to give respect.

You will get to know on the day of judgement that you are doing shirk or not. What will you say if you will be asked to prove or justify your actions. Let me tell you blame it on a wahabi. :D
 
Only a fool like you to whom building is haram (lol) can refute the words of a narration. If following actions with proof is wahabism or whatever then I am proud to be that. Your ignorance is applaudable. You wanna kiss it or touch it doesnt bother me. Instead dont forget to lick it as well. Correcting you wont stop the thousands who do these actions anyway. And i made my point clearly and credibly. You seriously have to be a tool to deny that. Can you simply read or should i send you an audio. It is clearly mentioned above not to be done. What else do you need? You think you have more knowledge than ibn Abbas?

I proved it to you it is an innovation and with little common sense you can understand it can lead to shirk. But you are too thick than I imagined. And your islamic knowledge is hilariously laughable.

You dont like the saudis. Good for you. Like they care about what you think of them. They are the inheritors of this religion and following it since 1400 years and hence proven that they have better knowledge than a nation who a couple of generations ago reverted to islam. Suddenly you are trying to be the real champions of islam. In a country where people worship dead people and women go to fake peers to get pregnant. First fix that and then call others yahoodis. If you were that eligible the religion would have been given to your people. Their forefathers were following islam when yours were most probably worshipping fire. Try to give respect.

You will get to know on the day of judgement that you are doing shirk or not. What will you say if you will be asked to prove or justify your actions. Let me tell you blame it on a wahabi. :D

Hazrat ibn Abbas didn't stop anyone from touching it.

Really? Do you even have brain? Putting a cover over maqam e ibrahim is equal to Bidat according to wahabi logic since its an innovation and innovation is shirk according your wahabi dumb logic mr wahabi. I dont believe its shirk i was countering your logic by your wahabi style logic but u r so dumb to understand this. Since you will not accept my point and i will not accept yours at all, so its better to stop this debate here. I can give more examples but it is of no use. You keep your point of view and don't touch and i keep my point of and will touch it whenever i want, and it is not obligatory nor prohibitted wahabi fellow. Allah will decide what was shirk and what was not. You guys can atleast stop calling it Shirk when someone touches it bcz you have no evidence at all that its shirk. Just stop calling others that its shirk shirk haram haram. Don't force your ideology on others. Let Allah decide on the day of Judgement. Watch this 2 minutes video and you will understand bidat according to other people point of view.



The Last Prophet of Allah, Muhammad (May Peace Be Up on Him) has also mentioned and talked about the importance, sanctity and holiness of this stone block, the Maqam Ibrahim. The Prophet once said “Indeed the corner and the Maqam are the two corundums from the corundums of Paradise. Allah removed their lights and if there lights had not been removed, then they would illuminate what is between East and West” (Tirmidhi). The saying epitomizes its unique importance attached with these stones, a feeling experienced by all those performing Hajj and Umrah.
 
Last edited:
The hadith you mentioned without any source does not justify touching and kissing. Secondly you are making yourself look like a tool giving idiotic claims of putting a cover over the maqam is innovation. Let me first clear out your concept first then we will take it forward:

Al-Bayhaqi, Ibn Hajar and Ibn Taymiyyah (and others) have cited the statements of al-Shafi'i, so we can document them here for the record. Al-Bayhaqi relates in Manaqib al-Shafi'i (1/469) with his isnad that Imam al-Shafi'i said:

The newly-invented matters are of two types: The first of them is that which has been introduced from that which opposes [something from] the book, or [something from] the sunnah, or a narration, or [a matter of] consensus. This is the misguided innovation. And the second is that which has been introduced of goodness and there is no opposition to anyone of these things [qur'an, sunnah, athar, ijmaa']. This is the newly-invented matter which is not blameworthy.

When ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas saw Mu’aawiyah ibn Abi Sufyaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) touching the two northern corners of the Ka’bah, he told him not to do that. Mu’aawiyah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said to him: “No part of the House should be ignored.’ Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “ ‘Indeed in the Messenger of Allaah (Muhammad) you have a good example to follow” [al-Ahzaab 33:21 – interpretation of the meaning]. And I saw the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) touching the two Yemeni corners,” meaning the Yemeni Corner and the Black Stone. So Mu’aawiyah accepted what Ibn ‘Abbaas said.

Secondly the narration I mentioned which so easily you have refuted without any justification that Ibn Abbas did not say anything like this. Why dont you check Fath Al bari shar7 sahih Bukhari commentary for Hadith 1609 book of Hajj in volume 3 page 474.

Now you decide if you want to add something to the religion by touching and kissing other than what has been taught by the prophet and his companions. The evidence is in front of you and you doing it will add to what has been taught by the prophet. I have delivered you the evidence. Now you decide.
 
The hadith you mentioned without any source does not justify touching and kissing. Secondly you are making yourself look like a tool giving idiotic claims of putting a cover over the maqam is innovation. Let me first clear out your concept first then we will take it forward:

Al-Bayhaqi, Ibn Hajar and Ibn Taymiyyah (and others) have cited the statements of al-Shafi'i, so we can document them here for the record. Al-Bayhaqi relates in Manaqib al-Shafi'i (1/469) with his isnad that Imam al-Shafi'i said:

The newly-invented matters are of two types: The first of them is that which has been introduced from that which opposes [something from] the book, or [something from] the sunnah, or a narration, or [a matter of] consensus. This is the misguided innovation. And the second is that which has been introduced of goodness and there is no opposition to anyone of these things [qur'an, sunnah, athar, ijmaa']. This is the newly-invented matter which is not blameworthy.

When ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas saw Mu’aawiyah ibn Abi Sufyaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) touching the two northern corners of the Ka’bah, he told him not to do that. Mu’aawiyah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said to him: “No part of the House should be ignored.’ Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “ ‘Indeed in the Messenger of Allaah (Muhammad) you have a good example to follow” [al-Ahzaab 33:21 – interpretation of the meaning]. And I saw the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) touching the two Yemeni corners,” meaning the Yemeni Corner and the Black Stone. So Mu’aawiyah accepted what Ibn ‘Abbaas said.

Secondly the narration I mentioned which so easily you have refuted without any justification that Ibn Abbas did not say anything like this. Why dont you check Fath Al bari shar7 sahih Bukhari commentary for Hadith 1609 book of Hajj in volume 3 page 474.

Now you decide if you want to add something to the religion by touching and kissing other than what has been taught by the prophet and his companions. The evidence is in front of you and you doing it will add to what has been taught by the prophet. I have delivered you the evidence. Now you decide.

Watch the above mentioned video again. And understand the point. If touching kabaa is bidat then putting a GOLD ladden cloth over kabaa and putting a GLASS shield and copper cover over maqam e ibrahim is too a BIDAT. And again go watch that video, but since you are a wahabi, you cannot understand any part of that.
 
I understood every part of that. But you are not understanding what is considered an innovation in religion. If you would try to understand the quote of Imam Shaf'i there won't be any argument left. Still not considering any part of evidence I quoted and sticking to the videos. Why don't you post something of equal credibility and then further your argument. The video still doesn't prove your point. While what I have mentioned directly nullifies your point of the given subject.
 

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom