Reverse Engineering Is Extremely Difficult

[ao333]

You said: "I was just trying to inform the Chinese people here that China can only design i486-equivalent CPUs but cannot fabricate them."

China can easily fabricate an i486-equivalent CPU in one of SMIC's fabrication facilities.

China can't. I am sure you know of the Fudan scandal. I had written about it in one of my earlier posts.

I'm not trying to troll you. I just get pissed off when you guys say that you can fabricate i486 and produce other things, which you evidently can't. It changes my view of you guys. Propaganda takes time and real accomplishments. Going Indian won't help things.

 

[new wave]

You said: "I was just trying to inform the Chinese people here that China can only design i486-equivalent CPUs but cannot fabricate them."

China can easily fabricate an i486-equivalent CPU in one of SMIC's fabrication facilities.

Bro, why waste your time on a ....up idiot ? he is here on a mission to troll ,did you found anyone of his crap posts with any "source" to back up, whats the point of debating with an idiot doing his brain fart nonsense like 50 cents sh!t ?

 

[Martian2]

Bro, why waste your time on a ....up idiot ? he is here on a mission to troll ,did you found anyone of his crap posts with any "source" to back up, whats the point of debating with an idiot doing his brain fart nonsense like 50 cents sh!t ?

I have proven that he's a troll. That's all that I wanted to accomplish.

 

[noksss]

I don't think that you can claim that the Arjun tank is indigenous, because "50% of the tank's components are imported, which include the engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system."

Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Despite DRDO's attempts at indigenization, the Arjun relied heavily on foreign components and technology. DRDO received major design assistance from Krauss Maffei, the developer of the German Leopard 2 tank, and several other German firms. As a result, Arjun's design is very similar to that of Leopard 2A4 tank.[10] 50% of the tank's components are imported, which include the engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system.[11] Recent reports from India indicate that the Russian T-90S will form the mainstay of its future force, despite that tank’s performance issues in hot weather. At the same time, the Indian Army wants to cap production of indigenous Arjun tanks to 124 units, due to repeated trial failures and vast budget overruns.[12]"

when did i say that arjun have not received any assistance from other countries i replied bcoz he claimed that with getting the support from other countries india could not make acceptable products that's y i made a comparison of arjun with abrahams
U said we cant claim arjun is indigenous the answer to this was posted by me already but i am posting it again .If u take the chinese

TYPE 054 frigate following are the very vital components which are either imported by chinese or license produced

Sonar:
------
MGK-335

This is a russian made sonar

Engine:SEMT Pielstick 21,000 hp
------

The above mentioned engine is french engine manufactured by MAN Diesel

Radar: Type 363S
------

The radar is derived from Thomson-CSF DRBV-15 Sea Tiger Radar

Thomson-csf(is renamed as Thales Group which is a French company)

Fire control:
-------------
1)Chinese made Type 345 is used

derived from Thomson-CSF Castor II fire control system

2)Type 347g radar

In the 1980s, China imported the OTOBreda (now OTO-Melara) Twin Fast Forty AAA [2] and Selenia (now AMS) SPG-74 (RTN-20X) fire control system from Italy for evaluation.and Type

347 is based on SPG-74 technology.

3)The Type 360 radar
derived from Selenia RAN-10S / SPS – 774 (italy)

Combat Management System:
--------------------------
1)ZKJ-4B/6
The above mentioned part is based on Thomson-CSF TAVITAC

2)SNTI-240 satellite communications (SATCOM), and datalink.is a british made

3)HZ-100

The Elettronica SpA suite was initially based on the Farad (ELT 123) ECM system which was a basic RWR/ESM system. It has since evolved into numerous iterations
The ELT 211 ESM suite is used on the improved version of the Newton system (Beta). It merges the ELT 123, which is basically a RWR system China was able to obtain a license to

manufacturer the Newton Beta suite in 1985 following the purchase of a few units of the original system from Elettronica and this is done by CSIC 723
The system on the Zhuhai has been referred to as the Type 825 ESM system and it is presumed that the complete locally manufactured system is using this domestic designation

instead of the Type 211 associated with the ESM set for the Elettronica Beta equipment. It is possible that the export designation for this system is the HZ-100


Main gun:
---------
1)Type 210 100 mm gun

This gun is based on French Creusot-Loire T100C

2)The AK-630 CIWS Gun

Its a Soviet fully automatic naval six-barreled 30 mm Gatling gun.


Missiles:
--------
1)HQ-7 SAM

HQ-7 SAM is based on Sea Crotale SAM

2)Hongniao_missile-2

Chinese land attack cruise missile, which is based on the variants of the Russian Kh-SD/65.


Torpedos:
-----------

Yu-7 used in this frigate is the Chinese development of the US Mk 46 Mod

Yu-7 torpedo obtained USA technical support in 1985, when China signed a US$ 8 million deal with USA in purchasing Mk 46 Mod. 2 torpedoes with technological support for
licensed assembly.

so tell me how the chinese call this frigate as ofcourse they call this as indigineous so what's wrong in indians calling arjun as indigineous

 

[SinoIndusFriendship]

I have proven that he's a troll. That's all that I wanted to accomplish.

Well done my friend, well done!

 

[below_freezing]

when did i say that arjun have not received any assistance from other countries i replied bcoz he claimed that with getting the support from other countries india could not make acceptable products that's y i made a comparison of arjun with abrahams
U said we cant claim arjun is indigenous the answer to this was posted by me already but i am posting it again .If u take the chinese

TYPE 054 frigate following are the very vital components which are either imported by chinese or license produced

Sonar:
------
MGK-335

This is a russian made sonar

Engine:SEMT Pielstick 21,000 hp
------

The above mentioned engine is french engine manufactured by MAN Diesel

Radar: Type 363S
------

The radar is derived from Thomson-CSF DRBV-15 Sea Tiger Radar

Thomson-csf(is renamed as Thales Group which is a French company)

Fire control:
-------------
1)Chinese made Type 345 is used

derived from Thomson-CSF Castor II fire control system

2)Type 347g radar

In the 1980s, China imported the OTOBreda (now OTO-Melara) Twin Fast Forty AAA [2] and Selenia (now AMS) SPG-74 (RTN-20X) fire control system from Italy for evaluation.and Type

347 is based on SPG-74 technology.

3)The Type 360 radar
derived from Selenia RAN-10S / SPS – 774 (italy)

Combat Management System:
--------------------------
1)ZKJ-4B/6
The above mentioned part is based on Thomson-CSF TAVITAC

2)SNTI-240 satellite communications (SATCOM), and datalink.is a british made

3)HZ-100

The Elettronica SpA suite was initially based on the Farad (ELT 123) ECM system which was a basic RWR/ESM system. It has since evolved into numerous iterations
The ELT 211 ESM suite is used on the improved version of the Newton system (Beta). It merges the ELT 123, which is basically a RWR system China was able to obtain a license to

manufacturer the Newton Beta suite in 1985 following the purchase of a few units of the original system from Elettronica and this is done by CSIC 723
The system on the Zhuhai has been referred to as the Type 825 ESM system and it is presumed that the complete locally manufactured system is using this domestic designation

instead of the Type 211 associated with the ESM set for the Elettronica Beta equipment. It is possible that the export designation for this system is the HZ-100


Main gun:
---------
1)Type 210 100 mm gun

This gun is based on French Creusot-Loire T100C

2)The AK-630 CIWS Gun

Its a Soviet fully automatic naval six-barreled 30 mm Gatling gun.


Missiles:
--------
1)HQ-7 SAM

HQ-7 SAM is based on Sea Crotale SAM

2)Hongniao_missile-2

Chinese land attack cruise missile, which is based on the variants of the Russian Kh-SD/65.


Torpedos:
-----------

Yu-7 used in this frigate is the Chinese development of the US Mk 46 Mod

Yu-7 torpedo obtained USA technical support in 1985, when China signed a US$ 8 million deal with USA in purchasing Mk 46 Mod. 2 torpedoes with technological support for
licensed assembly.

so tell me how the chinese call this frigate as ofcourse they call this as indigineous so what's wrong in indians calling arjun as indigineous

no, the systems are, as stated, DERIVED, not imported or licensed. can you please tell me what derived means? my english isn't good. what does derived quantitatively mean?

a Ferrari has 4 wheels and an internal combustion engine. so does a 1920's ford. A Ferrari must be derived from a ford.

Another example of insulting a world class engineer for not building his own screwdrivers.

 

[Martian2]

when did i say that arjun have not received any assistance from other countries i replied bcoz he claimed that with getting the support from other countries india could not make acceptable products that's y i made a comparison of arjun with abrahams
U said we cant claim arjun is indigenous the answer to this was posted by me already but i am posting it again .If u take the chinese

TYPE 054 frigate following are the very vital components which are either imported by chinese or license produced

Sonar:
------
MGK-335

This is a russian made sonar

Engine:SEMT Pielstick 21,000 hp
------

The above mentioned engine is french engine manufactured by MAN Diesel

Radar: Type 363S
------

The radar is derived from Thomson-CSF DRBV-15 Sea Tiger Radar

Thomson-csf(is renamed as Thales Group which is a French company)

Fire control:
-------------
1)Chinese made Type 345 is used

derived from Thomson-CSF Castor II fire control system

2)Type 347g radar

In the 1980s, China imported the OTOBreda (now OTO-Melara) Twin Fast Forty AAA [2] and Selenia (now AMS) SPG-74 (RTN-20X) fire control system from Italy for evaluation.and Type

347 is based on SPG-74 technology.

3)The Type 360 radar
derived from Selenia RAN-10S / SPS – 774 (italy)

Combat Management System:
--------------------------
1)ZKJ-4B/6
The above mentioned part is based on Thomson-CSF TAVITAC

2)SNTI-240 satellite communications (SATCOM), and datalink.is a british made

3)HZ-100

The Elettronica SpA suite was initially based on the Farad (ELT 123) ECM system which was a basic RWR/ESM system. It has since evolved into numerous iterations
The ELT 211 ESM suite is used on the improved version of the Newton system (Beta). It merges the ELT 123, which is basically a RWR system China was able to obtain a license to

manufacturer the Newton Beta suite in 1985 following the purchase of a few units of the original system from Elettronica and this is done by CSIC 723
The system on the Zhuhai has been referred to as the Type 825 ESM system and it is presumed that the complete locally manufactured system is using this domestic designation

instead of the Type 211 associated with the ESM set for the Elettronica Beta equipment. It is possible that the export designation for this system is the HZ-100


Main gun:
---------
1)Type 210 100 mm gun

This gun is based on French Creusot-Loire T100C

2)The AK-630 CIWS Gun

Its a Soviet fully automatic naval six-barreled 30 mm Gatling gun.


Missiles:
--------
1)HQ-7 SAM

HQ-7 SAM is based on Sea Crotale SAM

2)Hongniao_missile-2

Chinese land attack cruise missile, which is based on the variants of the Russian Kh-SD/65.


Torpedos:
-----------

Yu-7 used in this frigate is the Chinese development of the US Mk 46 Mod

Yu-7 torpedo obtained USA technical support in 1985, when China signed a US$ 8 million deal with USA in purchasing Mk 46 Mod. 2 torpedoes with technological support for
licensed assembly.

so tell me how the chinese call this frigate as ofcourse they call this as indigineous so what's wrong in indians calling arjun as indigineous

Indigenous production of weapons is an important issue because if important components, such as the Arjun's "engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system," are imported then they are vulnerable to an embargo or economic sanctions.

In other words, India can't wage a protracted war because there won't be any new or replacement parts. The important point about indigenous production of weapons is that your country's foreign policy will not need America's approval. If America decides that India should not wage a war, the U.S. can merely ask the German government to halt all further supplies of "engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system."

We saw this situation and the devastating effect on the Argentine military when America asked the French to halt further delivery of Exocet missiles. Lack of Exocets was one of the key reasons that the Argentines lost the Falklands War.

http://www.findlegaladvice.org/foru...-the-British-win-the-Falklands-war-310815.htm

"Yes because the Falklands war was such a triumph! ... a lot of American pressure on the French to stop them resupplying the Argentinians with more Exocet's. ..."

http://socyberty.com/military/the-scandal-of-the-french-supplied-exocet-missiles/

"The Scandal of The French Supplied “exocet” Missiles
by Lord Banks in Military, February 17, 2010

My series on the Falklands war continues with the sinking of H.M.S. Sheffield and the covert operation to stop France our so-called allie supplying Argentina with Exorcets.
...
France issued a statement that it would not supply Argentina with anymore Exocet missiles, however that was not true! Margaret Thatcher ordered the Secret Services of Britain to make sure France didn’t sell Argentina these missiles."

 

[noksss]

no, the systems are, as stated, DERIVED, not imported or licensed. can you please tell me what derived means? my english isn't good. what does derived quantitatively mean?

a Ferrari has 4 wheels and an internal combustion engine. so does a 1920's ford. A Ferrari must be derived from a ford.

Another example of insulting a world class engineer for not building his own screwdrivers.

If u want my help in understanding english surely i can help u

please go to the below link and see what is mentioned as the synonyms for derived
Derived Synonyms | Synonyms of Derived and Antonyms of Derived at Thesaurus.com

u will find the following

Synonyms for derived is : borrowed, copied

When u take any of the meaning mentioned above for my word derived u will find it's not chinese indigineous weapon that's what i want to say about the chinese TYPE-054 the reason is beacuse Martian2 said that Arjun should not be called indigineous weapon because it has 50% foreign components so what will u call this chinese frigate as

Hope this might have clarified ur doubt about the synonyms of derived

 

[noksss]

Indigenous production of weapons is an important issue because if important components, such as the Arjun's "engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system," are imported then they are vulnerable to an embargo or economic sanctions.

In other words, India can't wage a protracted war because there won't be any new or replacement parts. The important point about indigenous production of weapons is that your country's foreign policy will not need America's approval. If America decides that India should not wage a war, the U.S. can merely ask the German government to halt all further supplies of "engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system."

We saw this situation and the devastating effect on the Argentine military when America asked the French to halt further delivery of Exocet missiles. Lack of Exocets was one of the key reasons that the Argentines lost the Falklands War.

Can Americans lay claim to helping the British win the Falklands war?

"Yes because the Falklands war was such a triumph! ... a lot of American pressure on the French to stop them resupplying the Argentinians with more Exocet's. ..."

The Scandal of The French Supplied “exocet” Missiles | Socyberty

"The Scandal of The French Supplied “exocet” Missiles
by Lord Banks in Military, February 17, 2010

My series on the Falklands war continues with the sinking of H.M.S. Sheffield and the covert operation to stop France our so-called allie supplying Argentina with Exorcets.
...
France issued a statement that it would not supply Argentina with anymore Exocet missiles, however that was not true! Margaret Thatcher ordered the Secret Services of Britain to make sure France didn’t sell Argentina these missiles."

Thanks for ur concern towards india regarding the indigineous production .But y are u trolling here when did i say that indigineous production should not be encouraged .u started the argument by saying Arjun should not be called as indigineous bcoz of foreign components so try to answer something about TYPE-054 frigate which is also using foreign components .instead dont deviate the topic by talking about the sanction imposed by america
and the reason i started replying bcoz of the below post where he claimed that india cant produce good systems despite of getting help from other countries

Quote:
Originally Posted by LonglivedChinPak
China should resort to reverse engineering because of the current arms and technological embargoes imposed by the US and the EU since 1989. But these embargoes have not prevented China to produce an aegis type destroyer and frigate, goalkeeper CIWS, type 99 MBT, HQ9 etc. China should give the best of its weaponry to Pakistan. In contrast India has not been able to produce a single acceptable indigeneous weapon despite massive EU, Israel and US help.


so try to understand y i have compared Arjun and abrahams

 

[Martian2]

Thanks for ur concern towards india regarding the indigineous production .But y are u trolling here when did i say that indigineous production should not be encouraged .u started the argument by saying Arjun should not be called as indigineous bcoz of foreign components so try to answer something about TYPE-054 frigate which is also using foreign components .instead dont deviate the topic by talking about the sanction imposed by america
and the reason i started replying bcoz of the below post where he claimed that india cant produce good systems despite of getting help from other countries

Quote:
Originally Posted by LonglivedChinPak
China should resort to reverse engineering because of the current arms and technological embargoes imposed by the US and the EU since 1989. But these embargoes have not prevented China to produce an aegis type destroyer and frigate, goalkeeper CIWS, type 99 MBT, HQ9 etc. China should give the best of its weaponry to Pakistan. In contrast India has not been able to produce a single acceptable indigeneous weapon despite massive EU, Israel and US help.


so try to understand y i have compared Arjun and abrahams

The Arjun is not a reverse-engineered tank. None of its major components are reverse-engineered. On the other hand, the Arjun is also not a product of indigenous innovation. All of the major "tank's components are imported, which include the engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system."

All of the critical parts of the Arjun tank are built in German factories and shipped to India for assembly. By anyone's definition, except for yours, the Arjun is not an indigenous manufacture of India.

Regarding the Type 054 frigate, I never made a post on it in this thread. However, at your request, I will address the indigenous nature of the Type 054 frigate. The old Type 054 frigate does indeed contain components that are licensed. However, the production under license is in China and not in a foreign country. Furthermore, China only builds advanced Type 054A frigates and 6 have been completed since 2005.

Type 054A frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Type 054A frigate

In late 2005, it was revealed that an improved version of the Type 054 frigate, the Type 054A (NATO codename Jiangkai II) was under construction at Huangpu Shipyard. The 054A is based on the same hull as the 054, but has updated sensors and more capable weapons and is China's most modern frigate.

Most importantly, the Type 054A's medium-range HQ-16 VLS SAM system now provides area air defence from all engagement angles up to a range of 50km, a considerable upgrade from the limited engagement angle, short range SAM system of the Type 054. The 4 AK-630 30mm AA guns of the Type 054 have also been replaced by 2 autonomous Type 730 CIWS which have improved reaction time for close-in anti-aircraft and anti-missile engagements.[1]

Like the Type 054, the Type 054A also incorporates many stealth features: sloped hull design; radar absorbent materials; and reduction of surface equipment and features.[2]"

Type 054 frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Type 054 frigate

China imported many weapon systems from France in the 1980s, and obtained license production. Several systems utilized on the Type 054 frigate are based on French systems that were used on the La Fayette in 1980s. However, the newer Type 054A frigate incorporates much more advanced indigenous systems, along with several more powerful domestically developed weapons such as the HQ-16 VLS and the Type 730 CIWS."

 

[Speeder 2]

^^ Well said!

There were only 2 type 054 built for evaluation purpose mainly.

It's the Type 054A that China is mass-producing, which is a different beast from Type 054.


On Arjun: as you explained, Arjun is not an indigenous manufacture of India.

But Arjun is definitely an indigenous assembly of India, even though it still doesn't work properly.

 

[noksss]

The Arjun is not a reverse-engineered tank. None of its major components are reverse-engineered. On the other hand, the Arjun is also not a product of indigenous innovation. All of the major "tank's components are imported, which include the engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system."

All of the critical parts of the Arjun tank are built in German factories and shipped to India for assembly. By anyone's definition, except for yours, the Arjun is not an indigenous manufacture of India.

Regarding the Type 054 frigate, I never made a post on it in this thread. However, at your request, I will address the indigenous nature of the Type 054 frigate. The old Type 054 frigate does indeed contain components that are licensed. However, the production under license is in China and not in a foreign country. Furthermore, China only builds advanced Type 054A frigates and 6 have been completed since 2005.

Type 054A frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Type 054A frigate

In late 2005, it was revealed that an improved version of the Type 054 frigate, the Type 054A (NATO codename Jiangkai II) was under construction at Huangpu Shipyard. The 054A is based on the same hull as the 054, but has updated sensors and more capable weapons and is China's most modern frigate.

Most importantly, the Type 054A's medium-range HQ-16 VLS SAM system now provides area air defence from all engagement angles up to a range of 50km, a considerable upgrade from the limited engagement angle, short range SAM system of the Type 054. The 4 AK-630 30mm AA guns of the Type 054 have also been replaced by 2 autonomous Type 730 CIWS which have improved reaction time for close-in anti-aircraft and anti-missile engagements.[1]

Like the Type 054, the Type 054A also incorporates many stealth features: sloped hull design; radar absorbent materials; and reduction of surface equipment and features.[2]"

Type 054 frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Type 054 frigate

China imported many weapon systems from France in the 1980s, and obtained license production. Several systems utilized on the Type 054 frigate are based on French systems that were used on the La Fayette in 1980s. However, the newer Type 054A frigate incorporates much more advanced indigenous systems, along with several more powerful domestically developed weapons such as the HQ-16 VLS and the Type 730 CIWS.

India's Heavy Tank Factory is building the T-90 tanks under TOT from russia and the delivery is started that deosn't mean that these are indian made weapons And even u accepted that china is license producing the components from france so this should not be called as indigineous that's my point
And coming back to arjun How long it will take for india to give money to Germany and license produce this in india as they did for T-90

and even i will argue that The fire control system will be replaced by
BEL IGMS which is the name of the indigineously developed FCS
As did by china in case of the type-054 frigate where they are replacing some parts with the indigineously developed one
so after producing theTYPE-054 china is moving towards an advanced version the same applies to india also DRDO aim is to produce next generation tanks by keeping the arjun as base

 

[Speeder 2]

...
And coming back to arjun How long it will take for india to give money to Germany and license produce this in india as they did for T-90

and even i will argue that The fire control system will be replaced by
BEL IGMS which is the name of the indigineously developed FCS
As did by china in case of the type-054 frigate where they are replacing some parts with the indigineously developed one
so after producing theTYPE-054 china is moving towards an advanced version the same applies to india also DRDO aim is to produce next generation tanks by keeping the arjun as base

^^ "How long it will take for india to give money to Germany and license produce this in india ? "

I don't hold my breath for it.

See what I highlighted above ? Until all those "will" and "is to" are replaced by "have done" and "was", arjun and so on remain as indigenous assemblies at best, not indigenous manufactures.

 

[Martian2]

India's Heavy Tank Factory is building the T-90 tanks under TOT from russia and the delivery is started that deosn't mean that these are indian made weapons And even u accepted that china is license producing the components from france so this should not be called as indigineous that's my point
And coming back to arjun How long it will take for india to give money to Germany and license produce this in india as they did for T-90

and even i will argue that The fire control system will be replaced by
BEL IGMS which is the name of the indigineously developed FCS
As did by china in case of the type-054 frigate where they are replacing some parts with the indigineously developed one
so after producing theTYPE-054 china is moving towards an advanced version the same applies to india also DRDO aim is to produce next generation tanks by keeping the arjun as base

Let's try this again.

"Type 054 frigate

China imported many weapon systems from France in the 1980s, and obtained license production. Several systems utilized on the Type 054 frigate are based on French systems that were used on the La Fayette in 1980s. However, the newer Type 054A frigate incorporates much more advanced indigenous systems, along with several more powerful domestically developed weapons such as the HQ-16 VLS and the Type 730 CIWS."

"Several" means some. The issue becomes how many and how critical were the components. Until those questions are answered, I cannot give you my opinion on whether the old Type 054 frigate was indigenous or not. However, the burden falls on the person making the assertion. Until your request, I have neither asserted that the Type 054 was indigenous or foreign. Without extensive research, I am not prepared to make either claim. To avoid the problem, I'll simply point to the advanced Type 054A and say that China's most modern frigate is indigenous.

The Type 054 frigate case is different from India's manufacture of Russian T-90s in India under Transfer-Of-Technology. With respect to the Type 054 frigate, it is unclear what proportion is indigenous and what proportion is foreign. In the case of the Russian T-90, there is not a single iota of Indian input into that tank. This is a clear-cut example of licensed manufacture of a foreign tank.

The last part of your post is true. If India uses the Arjun tank as a technology base and develops indigenous improvements then at some point the cumulative improvements should be labeled as indigenous components. We'll have to wait and see.

Anyway, stop claiming that today's Arjun tank is a product of indigenous manufacture. It's not. If you want to claim that it's locally-assembled then that would be true. With regard to whether a future Arjun can be called indigenous, that depends on the level of indigenous improvement or contribution to the critical components that are currently being imported from Germany.


China's Indigenous Advanced Type 054A Jiangkai II Frigate

Arjun Tank. 50% of its components, including the most critical and complex, are from Germany.


Is this an Arjun Tank in gray paint? No, it's Germany's Leopard 2A4. The two tanks look like brothers. Same turret shape. Same glass view window on right side of turret. Same placement of machine gun on turret. Same rectangular gap between the turret and chassis. Same seven-wheeled track. Same downward slope toward ground on the front of the tank. Same general shape. How many more similarities can you find?

 

[noksss]

Let's try this again.

"Type 054 frigate

China imported many weapon systems from France in the 1980s, and obtained license production. Several systems utilized on the Type 054 frigate are based on French systems that were used on the La Fayette in 1980s. However, the newer Type 054A frigate incorporates much more advanced indigenous systems, along with several more powerful domestically developed weapons such as the HQ-16 VLS and the Type 730 CIWS."

"Several" means some. The issue becomes how many and how critical were the components. Until those questions are answered, I cannot give you my opinion on whether the old Type 054 frigate was indigenous or not. However, the burden falls on the person making the assertion. Until your request, I have neither asserted that the Type 054 was indigenous or foreign. Without extensive research, I am not prepared to make either claim. To avoid the problem, I'll simply point to the advanced Type 054A and say that China's most modern frigate is indigenous.

The Type 054 frigate case is different from India's manufacture of Russian T-90s in India under Transfer-Of-Technology. With respect to the Type 054 frigate, it is unclear what proportion is indigenous and what proportion is foreign. In the case of the Russian T-90, there is not a single iota of Indian input into that tank. This is a clear-cut example of licensed manufacture of a foreign tank.

The last part of your post is true. If India uses the Arjun tank as a technology base and develops indigenous improvements then at some point the cumulative improvements should be labeled as indigenous components. We'll have to wait and see.

Anyway, stop claiming that today's Arjun tank is a product of indigenous manufacture. It's not. If you want to claim that it's locally-assembled then that would be true. With regard to whether a future Arjun can be called indigenous, that depends on the level of indigenous improvement or contribution to the critical components that are currently being imported from Germany.


China's Indigenous Advanced Type 054A Jiangkai II Frigate

Arjun Tank. 50% of its components, including the most critical and complex, are from Germany.


Is this an Arjun Tank in gray paint? No, it's Germany's Leopard 2A4. The two tanks look like brothers. Same turret shape. Same glass view window on right side of turret. Same placement of machine gun on turret. Same rectangular gap between the turret and chassis. Same seven-wheeled track. Same downward slope toward ground on the front of the tank. Same general shape. How many more similarities can you find?

So are u saying when something is license produced for TYPE-054 then its indigenous
and if the same thing is imported for Arjun then its not indigenous