haviZsultan
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@haviZsultan Hey bro !!! Good to see you on Jr.Think Tank post ... Congratulations mate !!! Forgive me for being off lately and replying to this post after so much time , I have been very busy with my University's work ...
No issue. University is first. Trust me. I kept fooling around and was too dedicated to Pakistan and paid the price back there. Imagine a person after every 6 months going back to Pakistan from Canada happily skipping semesters along the way.
Well this is what I encouraged you for , writing big posts because these problems cant be discussed in a brief manner ... Really ? I can write a book ? On what bro ? 'Psychology of a Extremist ' perhaps Well sure , if I ever get enough time and data on that kind ...
Actually being on a forum has always affected my book writing adversely. Personally I am not sure if there is more culture or tradition I should add in it. Like you know Pashtun legends like Adam Khan and Durkhunai, Suris, Lodhis, Durannis, have enough about Pir Roshan, Khattak and others. Truly Pashtun history very rich and beautiful. Wanted to include all that but don't know if I should add more or leave some history for the next book-already a lot there anyway.
Maybe I am , I just dont know ... Well that hardly matters what I think , if the Mods think I am worthy , I will get that position ... No , I see you post regularly here of PDF and make highly detailed posts - not to mention you have the patience to answer every single person on the thread ...
Actually that has to do with being hard-headed and stubborn. I used to be called that because sometimes something came over me and I wouldn't budge. Still happens.
Well that is because that is what they were taught from childhood and they do not use their own critical thinking skills - like I said before they are " merely toeing other's line " and " jumping on the bandwagon without knowing anything " or with " no knowledge of the reality on ground " ... Well , at times many people get compromised emotionally , that isn't something unusual or wrong and doesn't make any difference to your extensively knowledgeable posts ... I know why sometimes Mods dont delete posts that actually contain strong language ... Well when you get that post of Think Tank or Moderator which you have now , you will be able to control it , trust me ... With great power comes great responsibility Right ?
True. But I am highly emotional... its a thing from birth. I get angry and I feel the need to say something. Especially posts that divide my country-it took hours and hours for others to teach me not to take offense at things said about Pakistan. Particularly what worries me is the talk of division from Pakistan by Pakistanis. It just hurts because this country is my blood.
Yeah... that bold part was in Spiderman.
Well @Hyperion is very sensitive about talking about his tribe or anything related to it even remotely so dont take it seriously ... He is Turkish-zai by the way But there you are , A Jr.Think Tank , all friendship aside , I do not see any other person on the PDF deserving of that position more than you ... What would be the reason that an overwhelming majority of tribals they dont want to talk to outsiders about their life conditions , customs or the ground realities ? Any particular one you can tell me ? Or can I attribute it to the " conservativeness" somehow ?[/QUOTE]
He has stopped commenting almost completely outside the Naswar thread. The only person who can make him comment on a topic is @Armstrong.
Personally Secur you should have been here first, in the think tank. I just came suddenly. Before that I was very inactive. Also I said it in the PM to Webbie that you were more deserving. I mentioned it once on Naswar Corner and he said ab kuch karna parey ga. Offer might come @Secur. I thought it would for you. Hyperion I think doesn't want Jr think tank position though he too was a good option almost solely because he is from the region.
Actually as far as the tribals not talking to anyone-it has been a huge issue for my book and for a long time I had lots of trouble finding a Mahsud (its a tribe name) to answer some questions. It has nothing to do with being conservative. Pashtuns people from the plains usually meet are city Pashtuns, some may be a little conservative but most I have met are just like anyone else. Dating takes places in Peshawar too. Last I heard there was a nightclub too. Perhaps thats why Afghan nationals abused Peshawar so much on other forum.
Basically the interview doesn't have to be like face to face. Lots of people think that but we journalists are very lazy. We don't like to go to people unless they are very famous personalities. We just talk on the phone or ask some questions over e-mail to which the respondent replies. I think I failed to mention that to @Hyperion. Hope he reconsiders. In any case he was smart enough to know that anyway-the logistics may be difficult with me in Pakistan and him in Turkey.
Reason 1) I can attribute it to the fact that they feel they are in the spotlight and don't really understand what to do when faced with questions that may be uncomfortable and have uncomfortable replies. See the thing is the war is going on in their regions. They see a lot of stuff that is, that might not be positively seen by others when they say it so I have to basically transfer confidence. For example if they say army killed 12 civilians by bombing a market or mention the at least 3 times the market in Makeen has been razed or bombed by jets, or the curfews it causes suspicion. When every attack is traced to Waziristan you know makes them wary and some feel they can't openly say what they want or feel or just explain their plight. I know all of these things. War is a terrible business and wrongs have taken place but we don't see any wrongs because our cities are relatively safer but for them it is very hard what is currently happening.
For example imagine an undeclared curfew from 6 pm to 9 am in Karachi (Its happened in Mingauara <its in Swat> for years before it was cleared) after a bomb blast. You just got off work as a small-time laborer and are dawdling about failing to notice the streets seem deserted. When you do notice now troops start firing at you suspecting you are a taliban fighter with your beard and pagree, you rush back home and barricade up your house-your wife comes and after worrying over you says there is no flour in the house but all shops are closed on account of curfew-there is one shopkeeper who is a daring old fellow who keeps his shop open despite the orders otherwise he knows his business will close-but how to go out? Your child starts bawling out of hunger... what to do? Then there are bombings, firefights in the nearby localities, attacks by militants. Firing in the street, land occupied by militants and sometimes the army, warehouses looting, mines taken over, derelict school buildings turned into garrisons to maintain the increasing number of soldiers.
Its not easy living in a war zone. But now when a journalist contacts you and says-tell me about everything the Yousafzai of Mingora, Wazir of Wana and Mahseed of Ladha each has strong emotions, is hurt and angry and information which if he gives he may be seen as a complainer and as a result anti-pakistani and combined with reason 2... well.
Reason 2) Another reason would be they do not trust me or know me enough so they suspect me, am I an ISI/CIA informer, a militant, what are my purposes? Do I want to show tribal people in negative or positive light... lots of questions come to mind. Its strange enough for me to be a wannabe Pashtun and its also strange for anyone from Karachi to know so much about that region, history, tribes and famous personalities.
To be truthful being a Nationalist can be a big hassle as I saw in Canada too-you become too active politically, all ends there, allegations fly, people attack you for your views and in north america anyone who does too much research on these regions or in my case on terror suspects who I believe may have been framed on false charges within those countries-time to pay the price. Then people who are too political look down upon us.
No , I didn't say you were trying to divert any attention from that or deny it , I merely said that you put first priority on blurring ethnic lines because you have seen it destroy your country from childhood ... Well , its kind of different for me , I blame extremism more than ethnic politics for the woes of my country ... Why ? Because I have seen it happening more in my neighborhood ( around ) than ethnic hatred ... Of course there are many other issues like poverty , crime , corruption and mismanagement but I can trace them back to these two curses !
Oh sorry... sometimes my posts come out like I am hostile. I mistype and the posts have no structure. I didn't mean to say anything rude or anything.
I have seen religious people. I like my personal freedom and the thing with the religious members in our family is they want to impose their religion. That is annoying. But have never witnessed support to the Taliban. Some people make a distinction between Afghan and Pakistani Taliban but are shouted down-though for defence reasons the distinction is useful, primarily for deciding which groups we must tackle first and which are secondary... only am talking about how taliban in afghanistan are painted as angels sometimes. Probably one of the reasons these people hate us so much.
YES INDEED ! Let me tell you that the principal of my school Mr . Sebastian Khan ( I didn't know whether they were Christians in Khan at that time ) was a Retired General in Pakistan Army ... Now you hear all sort of negative and sometimes propaganda news how we mistreat minorities in this country but you dont see how we allow them to function independently in the country too ... Those Christians as I mentioned in my last post were educating people regardless of their race or religion at a much cheaper and affordable price than my own " Welfare " muslims , they have low cost health system , their own education boards and the quality of education believe me is way better than the most schools whose fees are " out of reach of even middle classes " ... I have said it before " There's no Ummah in existence at the moment " , there's only nationalism believe me ... A lot of people criticize Musharraf for his " enlightened moderation " and most importantly " Pakistan first " policy ...
Christians had a huge part. Even Hindus. Its so sad no one even heard of people like Shri Jogindar Nath Mandal.
Yeah, I agree. A lot of people support Musharraf. Even my family. Personally I don't anymore particularly due to NRO and some other things, also if he had just kept power for 6 months or 1 year and brought maybe clean, new parties perhaps a lot could change. Then Bhutto escaped and Nawaz was released on insistence from Saudi instead of fair investigation into the assets of both.
Enlightened moderation was good and never say it impose it either. Me, I believe in secularism but I will never try to impose it... I leave it as an idea and reveal its possible benefits, then let the people who read my articles on it decide. Lets leave that debate.
But take my word for it , that man was a realist and whatever he did based on these policies were the need of the hour and right to the core ! ... Yes nationalism and religion are separate , its the same reason that Turkey is an economic and to an extent a regional power whilst we are going through our darkest period in our history thanks to the " marriages of convenience " in the 80's ...
Yeah. Linking nationalism with religion or ethnicity is a major issue.
Yeah , no authority , none whatsoever ! Who the hell on earth knows who were my ancestors ? Were they Iranians , Arabs , Byzantines , Greeks or what ? Whom in my family married whom at what time ? Does that matter ? Why should I care ? I am a Pakistani , it says on my passport and CNIC , the state of Pakistan bears my education expenses ... Not in today's world , sorry ... These despicable logic of superiority based on blood are a thing of past , nobody believes it in the civilized world ... I mean if a Pakistan gets a US nationality , is he a Muhajir ? NO , according to all Americans , he's american like them ! Thats one of the reason why specially West and other countries are prospering whilst we aren't ...
We take these things too seriously. It would be insightful what you think about the posts on the other thread Secur. Particularly about the next step or merger with other ethnic groups. Its a very difficult process and perhaps even hard for people to think about because its basically something, an identity we have had for years. Flinging it away like old clothes a difficult business.
Do check out that long-boring post about the solutions I suggested. 1) Merger and 2) reinforce original identity like Lucknowi, Bihari or other.
Yeah ! Dont bother about it , mate ...
No body asking you to interfere in anyone's views but the same is true vice versa , my friend ... Difference of opinion is a fundamental quality of human psyche , why is it so offensive to some people , I dont know ... So , it is the same again , if you aren't of my race , dont comment on it LOL ... What is with this absurdity ? I know people are sensitive about these matters , but is this the reason to stop " the freedom of speech " ? Let those who develop it a race war , realize the stupidity of their actions ... Do not stop anyone from commenting on anything , bro ... Only through understanding can there be recovery , remember ? About time we say goodbye to " In my ignorance lies my solace " thinking ... Now remember and I shall make it very clear that " criticism " and " insulting " are very different things and whilst I support the former , I strongly condemn the latter ...
I believe you are absolutely right... but I have almost always noticed a kind of sensitivity. For example on request on that thread I called Rafay to clarify a point to American Pakistani and darkinsky that its our family and others like ours that want to maintain muhajir identity-not the other way around. In reality its a very critical look by someone of muhajir birth and it becomes really hard for them to deny it. He posted something and backed me... basically thats all he did and state the same exact points I did. But when he said all Muhajirs should consider themselves Sindhis (I said we should merge too) adding that he accept's them as Sindhis a person even attacked him.
So the thing is I have to take care of sensitivities around certain topics otherwise I may end up doing the exact opposite of what I intend which is to increase ethnic harmony.
I know why you comment so cautious , bro but think of it if we do not understand our history and the leaders , how can we rectify our mistakes ? Your opinions on Muhajirs and criticism are well known , despite you being one which makes you the bigger man !
Surprise ! I have too always criticized the same things of ANP ... Why get yourself buried in Afghanistan instead of your country , the curious mind asks ? Do you really care what people think ? When I started self-studying psychology , thats the first thing I learnt , do not give a damn what others have to say about you , and who's to say that it hasn't been successful ? No , someday you will , they do not stuff about them which you tell them ... Discrimination against anyone is condemnable , we all criticize it very openly ... But thats the ethnic issue again ! Its done by everyone against everyone , but you will find educated people bother less about these things , illiteracy is one of the reasons behind it , take my word for it ...
I agree. However their narrative has to be countered. If we fail to do this they win the propaganda war. I agree. Illiterate people and villagers tend to take ethnicity much more seriously by the way.
I know the past of Afghans and I have a good enough idea of their future ... They have destroyed themselves fighting for 200 years continuously between themselves ... Give them the spanking they deserve , separatist do not merit any respect of ours ! I do not know the refugees bro seriously but I see them as hostiles due to their involvement in crimes and anti-Pakistan activities ... Yeah , just what the TNT said , the muslims of India are free to settle here , let there be no doubt about that ... We have gotten harsh because of the condition of our country , we aren't that bad , bro ...
I agree. I remember a Pakistani friend telling me his dad had been offered citizenship of DROC (Zaire) where he lived previously. It is another thing that he rejected it but DROC is a country with one of the lowest GDP per capita's ($300) and the poorest of the poorest. Its in Africa and most of us Pakistanis haven't even heard of it but you know proves a point. We don't need to take an example from the Arabs in this regard. They are as bad when it comes to citizenship. Loyalty eventually develops with citizenship. There is a poster kingmamba, pakistani background, US citizen... i criticized US policy and he was at my neck in seconds. It can be done-middle classes and educated people should be accepted with open arms.
Of course it isn't that easy to integrate into a completely new and different society with different ways of doing things ... But when they do , why label them as " outsider " , " alien " or worst of all " migrant " ? Rest assured , they are more patriotic than the most ! Has your mother got the citizenship ? The violence in Hyderabad right ? ... They will understand in due time , dont worry ... Everyone did ...
My mother got it, that wasn't as big an issue, she is from Lucknow like my father but ancestral towns are just different, my posts I know are a little unstructured at times-sorry. Hyderabad link is stronger with my fathers side as some relatives settled there but some from my mothers side as well-mostly because my fathers family and mothers family have ancient tradition of marrying with each other. The real issue was later with people we moved. 2003-4 or close. Also I worked for sufferers witness which moved some families, mostly from Kashmir but there were other cases too. It was a Pakistani charity with lots of Nationalist influences.
Yeah , mate ... Why do not we see our own mistakes and shortcomings ? We criticize and sometimes insult everyone yet we aren't ready to acknowledge our mistakes and blunders ... The " mode of denial " isn't helping anyone ... Condemn violence on others equally how you do to yourself when it happens to your race , basic message ...
True.
You are welcome , brother ... You just need someone to clarify you things when you are in some sort of subconsciousness turmoil ...
And my posts too... they look like a jumbled mess at times.
Well , yeah ok If I criticize my race but unacceptable if others do it ... Why ? This is another thing I find unacceptable myself , instead people turn to racism to quitten others basically " shooting the messenger " again ... Yeah , people of same race criticizing themselves is very hurtful for the ethnic extremist , I know that from a long time ... Thats great , I feel my " talk therapy " is working finally ...
Yeah. And changes can be seen. I used to see darkinsky's posts-man he couldn't live without insulting a Punjabi, Sindhi or Pashtun. Sometimes I really feel things are working. But theres always something in these guys stopping them from you know crossing that bridge completely. Luffy tones down... then he comes back again with new racism. Probably someone will report his previous post actually (no 386)... it is insulting to Pakistan and has the potential to start an ugly race war. He is trying to provoke me and knows now I can't say the things I used to. Fun times for him.
Yes we are indifferent to races , we simply do not care ... If they are right , we join them in the bashing astonishing others ... Nobody needs race to survive , its not a matter of our existence ... I know very well why you adopted Pashtun race , for the unity of different races ... A noble cause , Secur would say ... No , you are making a great difference ... I didn't see anyone like that on this forum before , but still you cant convince everyone , not specially those who do not use their brain or do not feel the need to use it ...
Yeah... I wouldn't say all this research, all this study didn't have no effect. Initially it was love for Pashtuns which grew from an initial attraction which itself developed out of biases I saw, alienation with family and the realization that despite my and our organizations attempts to do away with race completely we could do nothing-they existed so by changing race I wasn't really being anti-Pakistani or taking part in the issues. After studying so much, I think anyone in my place might have been affected.
Later I understood that perhaps i could be a harbinger of change in this country with such actions... because how come when a Punjabi or Sindhi is insulted his Baloch or "Urdu speaking" countryman does not feel insulted or vice versa? They are our people-fellow Pakistanis. We are to protect all of them. They see me defending them... the ethnic boundaries disappear, maybe they do the same thing. Now it has become much more important. This cause of ethnic unity led me on when those people on the other forum abused me very badly. I seriously felt very angry... I came hoping to get support from them and acceptance. Those guys are really crazy. Hate is a strong term but I may be somewhere close to it in my feelings for Afghanistan.
Anyway in short there are many, many reasons for this indentity change even fascination with the past-the possible princess our forefathers married who happened to be of Pashtun descent which is still an unsolvable mystery. This adopting another identity is also a very novel approach to ending the ethnic issue. By trying to impose a Nationalist identity we have constantly been trying to obfuscate an existing reality. For example if a Nationalist party had come forward and changed name of NWFP to Pakhunkhwa there would be no support for ANP. Everyone knows their history anyway. But we lack that mentality-we couldn't actually see each province had a name and a single province stood out (even now its a case with FATA)... instead we tried to say no ethnic names but then Punjab, Sindh, Balochistan and Kashmir all have them. So on part of us Nationalists there has always been a lack of understanding or unwillingness to understand these intricacies.
Sad to hear it , bro ! I think you took all these things very seriously , I can confirm that sometimes psychological turmoils can manifest into physiological diseases , so try to be cool and composed while doing your job ... You will encounter many different sorts of people , do not let them get on your nerves ... Journalistic contacts are enough for now , focus on finishing the book and I think you will be able to regain your position some day ...
Yeah. I hope so.
I can sincerely advice you to get your book published first , the big fishes will automatically chase you themselves when they see the quality of your work ... One step at a time , I get it what do you mean by " big fishes " but please remember this is your novel ... A great deal of it will follow afterwards , attracting those big publishing companies ... So dont lose patience !
The thing is I don't want just any publisher. I want the book to be sell... initially when I started it I didn't but am in difficult condition now. My parents even don't think too highly of me. Lots of issues. Its necessary it goes with some company that is extremely strong.
Well bro , I stay updated on the news and the happenings in my country and I am still this optimistic ... But I will take your advice and never got that route ...
Yeah. And the thing is they always tell us you gotta be impartial... when you try to be a journalist leave your Nationalism behind. That is very annoying.
Well , yes 12,000 is nothing but the party is still in its infancy ... It will take sometime to rise like rest ...
Guess so... party is in our hearts. Not launched. It exists as basically a movement of a number of Nationalist organizations like Watan Parast Mahaz or Pakistan Nationalist Party... various other groups too.
You will ! Wait and watch ... We need to focus on education foremost ...
Thanks ! Congratz again for becoming Jr. Think Tank ! I will answer more on your Split Discussion : Muhajir Identity thread when I get more time ...
Thank you very much. You should have been here first secur.
I will make the request to Webbie... not very quickly though because I already asked once and me a new think tank so he may go like, you just came and already making demands.
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