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Revenge by Pakistani Pashtuns: Private war breaks out on Pak-Afghan border

@haviZsultan Hey bro !!! Good to see you on Jr.Think Tank post ... Congratulations mate !!! Forgive me for being off lately and replying to this post after so much time , I have been very busy with my University's work ...

No issue. University is first. Trust me. I kept fooling around and was too dedicated to Pakistan and paid the price back there. Imagine a person after every 6 months going back to Pakistan from Canada happily skipping semesters along the way.

Well this is what I encouraged you for , writing big posts because these problems cant be discussed in a brief manner ... Really ? I can write a book ? On what bro ? 'Psychology of a Extremist ' perhaps Well sure , if I ever get enough time and data on that kind ...

Actually being on a forum has always affected my book writing adversely. Personally I am not sure if there is more culture or tradition I should add in it. Like you know Pashtun legends like Adam Khan and Durkhunai, Suris, Lodhis, Durannis, have enough about Pir Roshan, Khattak and others. Truly Pashtun history very rich and beautiful. Wanted to include all that but don't know if I should add more or leave some history for the next book-already a lot there anyway.
Maybe I am , I just dont know ... Well that hardly matters what I think , if the Mods think I am worthy , I will get that position ... No , I see you post regularly here of PDF and make highly detailed posts - not to mention you have the patience to answer every single person on the thread ...

Actually that has to do with being hard-headed and stubborn. I used to be called that because sometimes something came over me and I wouldn't budge. Still happens.

Well that is because that is what they were taught from childhood and they do not use their own critical thinking skills - like I said before they are " merely toeing other's line " and " jumping on the bandwagon without knowing anything " or with " no knowledge of the reality on ground " ... Well , at times many people get compromised emotionally , that isn't something unusual or wrong and doesn't make any difference to your extensively knowledgeable posts ... I know why sometimes Mods dont delete posts that actually contain strong language ... Well when you get that post of Think Tank or Moderator which you have now , you will be able to control it , trust me ... With great power comes great responsibility :P Right ?

True. But I am highly emotional... its a thing from birth. I get angry and I feel the need to say something. Especially posts that divide my country-it took hours and hours for others to teach me not to take offense at things said about Pakistan. Particularly what worries me is the talk of division from Pakistan by Pakistanis. It just hurts because this country is my blood.

Yeah... that bold part was in Spiderman.

Well @Hyperion is very sensitive about talking about his tribe or anything related to it even remotely so dont take it seriously ... He is Turkish-zai by the way But there you are , A Jr.Think Tank , all friendship aside , I do not see any other person on the PDF deserving of that position more than you ... What would be the reason that an overwhelming majority of tribals they dont want to talk to outsiders about their life conditions , customs or the ground realities ? Any particular one you can tell me ? Or can I attribute it to the " conservativeness" somehow ?[/QUOTE]

He has stopped commenting almost completely outside the Naswar thread. The only person who can make him comment on a topic is @Armstrong.

Personally Secur you should have been here first, in the think tank. I just came suddenly. Before that I was very inactive. Also I said it in the PM to Webbie that you were more deserving. I mentioned it once on Naswar Corner and he said ab kuch karna parey ga. :P Offer might come @Secur. I thought it would for you. Hyperion I think doesn't want Jr think tank position though he too was a good option almost solely because he is from the region.

Actually as far as the tribals not talking to anyone-it has been a huge issue for my book and for a long time I had lots of trouble finding a Mahsud (its a tribe name) to answer some questions. It has nothing to do with being conservative. Pashtuns people from the plains usually meet are city Pashtuns, some may be a little conservative but most I have met are just like anyone else. Dating takes places in Peshawar too. Last I heard there was a nightclub too. Perhaps thats why Afghan nationals abused Peshawar so much on other forum. :rolleyes:

Basically the interview doesn't have to be like face to face. Lots of people think that but we journalists are very lazy. We don't like to go to people unless they are very famous personalities. We just talk on the phone or ask some questions over e-mail to which the respondent replies. I think I failed to mention that to @Hyperion. Hope he reconsiders. In any case he was smart enough to know that anyway-the logistics may be difficult with me in Pakistan and him in Turkey.

Reason 1) I can attribute it to the fact that they feel they are in the spotlight and don't really understand what to do when faced with questions that may be uncomfortable and have uncomfortable replies. See the thing is the war is going on in their regions. They see a lot of stuff that is, that might not be positively seen by others when they say it so I have to basically transfer confidence. For example if they say army killed 12 civilians by bombing a market or mention the at least 3 times the market in Makeen has been razed or bombed by jets, or the curfews it causes suspicion. When every attack is traced to Waziristan you know makes them wary and some feel they can't openly say what they want or feel or just explain their plight. I know all of these things. War is a terrible business and wrongs have taken place but we don't see any wrongs because our cities are relatively safer but for them it is very hard what is currently happening.

For example imagine an undeclared curfew from 6 pm to 9 am in Karachi (Its happened in Mingauara <its in Swat> for years before it was cleared) after a bomb blast. You just got off work as a small-time laborer and are dawdling about failing to notice the streets seem deserted. When you do notice now troops start firing at you suspecting you are a taliban fighter with your beard and pagree, you rush back home and barricade up your house-your wife comes and after worrying over you says there is no flour in the house but all shops are closed on account of curfew-there is one shopkeeper who is a daring old fellow who keeps his shop open despite the orders otherwise he knows his business will close-but how to go out? Your child starts bawling out of hunger... what to do? Then there are bombings, firefights in the nearby localities, attacks by militants. Firing in the street, land occupied by militants and sometimes the army, warehouses looting, mines taken over, derelict school buildings turned into garrisons to maintain the increasing number of soldiers.

Its not easy living in a war zone. But now when a journalist contacts you and says-tell me about everything the Yousafzai of Mingora, Wazir of Wana and Mahseed of Ladha each has strong emotions, is hurt and angry and information which if he gives he may be seen as a complainer and as a result anti-pakistani and combined with reason 2... well. :rolleyes:

Reason 2) Another reason would be they do not trust me or know me enough so they suspect me, am I an ISI/CIA informer, a militant, what are my purposes? Do I want to show tribal people in negative or positive light... lots of questions come to mind. Its strange enough for me to be a wannabe Pashtun and its also strange for anyone from Karachi to know so much about that region, history, tribes and famous personalities.

To be truthful being a Nationalist can be a big hassle as I saw in Canada too-you become too active politically, all ends there, allegations fly, people attack you for your views and in north america anyone who does too much research on these regions or in my case on terror suspects who I believe may have been framed on false charges within those countries-time to pay the price. Then people who are too political look down upon us.

No , I didn't say you were trying to divert any attention from that or deny it , I merely said that you put first priority on blurring ethnic lines because you have seen it destroy your country from childhood ... Well , its kind of different for me , I blame extremism more than ethnic politics for the woes of my country ... Why ? Because I have seen it happening more in my neighborhood ( around ) than ethnic hatred ... Of course there are many other issues like poverty , crime , corruption and mismanagement but I can trace them back to these two curses !

Oh sorry... sometimes my posts come out like I am hostile. I mistype and the posts have no structure. I didn't mean to say anything rude or anything.

I have seen religious people. I like my personal freedom and the thing with the religious members in our family is they want to impose their religion. That is annoying. But have never witnessed support to the Taliban. Some people make a distinction between Afghan and Pakistani Taliban but are shouted down-though for defence reasons the distinction is useful, primarily for deciding which groups we must tackle first and which are secondary... only am talking about how taliban in afghanistan are painted as angels sometimes. Probably one of the reasons these people hate us so much.
YES INDEED ! Let me tell you that the principal of my school Mr . Sebastian Khan ( I didn't know whether they were Christians in Khan at that time ) was a Retired General in Pakistan Army ... Now you hear all sort of negative and sometimes propaganda news how we mistreat minorities in this country but you dont see how we allow them to function independently in the country too ... Those Christians as I mentioned in my last post were educating people regardless of their race or religion at a much cheaper and affordable price than my own " Welfare " muslims , they have low cost health system , their own education boards and the quality of education believe me is way better than the most schools whose fees are " out of reach of even middle classes " ... I have said it before " There's no Ummah in existence at the moment " , there's only nationalism believe me ... A lot of people criticize Musharraf for his " enlightened moderation " and most importantly " Pakistan first " policy ...

Christians had a huge part. Even Hindus. Its so sad no one even heard of people like Shri Jogindar Nath Mandal.

Yeah, I agree. A lot of people support Musharraf. Even my family. Personally I don't anymore particularly due to NRO and some other things, also if he had just kept power for 6 months or 1 year and brought maybe clean, new parties perhaps a lot could change. Then Bhutto escaped and Nawaz was released on insistence from Saudi instead of fair investigation into the assets of both.

Enlightened moderation was good and never say it impose it either. Me, I believe in secularism but I will never try to impose it... I leave it as an idea and reveal its possible benefits, then let the people who read my articles on it decide. Lets leave that debate.

But take my word for it , that man was a realist and whatever he did based on these policies were the need of the hour and right to the core ! ... Yes nationalism and religion are separate , its the same reason that Turkey is an economic and to an extent a regional power whilst we are going through our darkest period in our history thanks to the " marriages of convenience " in the 80's ...

Yeah. Linking nationalism with religion or ethnicity is a major issue.

Yeah , no authority , none whatsoever ! Who the hell on earth knows who were my ancestors ? Were they Iranians , Arabs , Byzantines , Greeks or what ? Whom in my family married whom at what time ? Does that matter ? Why should I care ? I am a Pakistani , it says on my passport and CNIC , the state of Pakistan bears my education expenses ... Not in today's world , sorry ... These despicable logic of superiority based on blood are a thing of past , nobody believes it in the civilized world ... I mean if a Pakistan gets a US nationality , is he a Muhajir ? NO , according to all Americans , he's american like them ! Thats one of the reason why specially West and other countries are prospering whilst we aren't ...

We take these things too seriously. It would be insightful what you think about the posts on the other thread Secur. Particularly about the next step or merger with other ethnic groups. Its a very difficult process and perhaps even hard for people to think about because its basically something, an identity we have had for years. Flinging it away like old clothes a difficult business.

Do check out that long-boring post about the solutions I suggested. 1) Merger and 2) reinforce original identity like Lucknowi, Bihari or other.

Yeah ! Dont bother about it , mate ...

No body asking you to interfere in anyone's views but the same is true vice versa , my friend ... Difference of opinion is a fundamental quality of human psyche , why is it so offensive to some people , I dont know ... So , it is the same again , if you aren't of my race , dont comment on it LOL ... What is with this absurdity ? I know people are sensitive about these matters , but is this the reason to stop " the freedom of speech " ? Let those who develop it a race war , realize the stupidity of their actions ... Do not stop anyone from commenting on anything , bro ... Only through understanding can there be recovery , remember ? About time we say goodbye to " In my ignorance lies my solace " thinking ... Now remember and I shall make it very clear that " criticism " and " insulting " are very different things and whilst I support the former , I strongly condemn the latter ...

I believe you are absolutely right... but I have almost always noticed a kind of sensitivity. For example on request on that thread I called Rafay to clarify a point to American Pakistani and darkinsky that its our family and others like ours that want to maintain muhajir identity-not the other way around. In reality its a very critical look by someone of muhajir birth and it becomes really hard for them to deny it. He posted something and backed me... basically thats all he did and state the same exact points I did. But when he said all Muhajirs should consider themselves Sindhis (I said we should merge too) adding that he accept's them as Sindhis a person even attacked him.

So the thing is I have to take care of sensitivities around certain topics otherwise I may end up doing the exact opposite of what I intend which is to increase ethnic harmony.

I know why you comment so cautious , bro but think of it if we do not understand our history and the leaders , how can we rectify our mistakes ? Your opinions on Muhajirs and criticism are well known , despite you being one which makes you the bigger man !

:)
Surprise ! I have too always criticized the same things of ANP ... Why get yourself buried in Afghanistan instead of your country , the curious mind asks ? Do you really care what people think ? When I started self-studying psychology , thats the first thing I learnt , do not give a damn what others have to say about you , and who's to say that it hasn't been successful ? No , someday you will , they do not stuff about them which you tell them ... Discrimination against anyone is condemnable , we all criticize it very openly ... But thats the ethnic issue again ! Its done by everyone against everyone , but you will find educated people bother less about these things , illiteracy is one of the reasons behind it , take my word for it ...

I agree. However their narrative has to be countered. If we fail to do this they win the propaganda war. I agree. Illiterate people and villagers tend to take ethnicity much more seriously by the way.

I know the past of Afghans and I have a good enough idea of their future ... They have destroyed themselves fighting for 200 years continuously between themselves ... Give them the spanking they deserve , separatist do not merit any respect of ours ! I do not know the refugees bro seriously but I see them as hostiles due to their involvement in crimes and anti-Pakistan activities ... Yeah , just what the TNT said , the muslims of India are free to settle here , let there be no doubt about that ... We have gotten harsh because of the condition of our country , we aren't that bad , bro ...

I agree. I remember a Pakistani friend telling me his dad had been offered citizenship of DROC (Zaire) where he lived previously. It is another thing that he rejected it but DROC is a country with one of the lowest GDP per capita's ($300) and the poorest of the poorest. Its in Africa and most of us Pakistanis haven't even heard of it but you know proves a point. We don't need to take an example from the Arabs in this regard. They are as bad when it comes to citizenship. Loyalty eventually develops with citizenship. There is a poster kingmamba, pakistani background, US citizen... i criticized US policy and he was at my neck in seconds. It can be done-middle classes and educated people should be accepted with open arms.

Of course it isn't that easy to integrate into a completely new and different society with different ways of doing things ... But when they do , why label them as " outsider " , " alien " or worst of all " migrant " ? Rest assured , they are more patriotic than the most ! Has your mother got the citizenship ? The violence in Hyderabad right ? ... They will understand in due time , dont worry ... Everyone did ...

My mother got it, that wasn't as big an issue, she is from Lucknow like my father but ancestral towns are just different, my posts I know are a little unstructured at times-sorry. Hyderabad link is stronger with my fathers side as some relatives settled there but some from my mothers side as well-mostly because my fathers family and mothers family have ancient tradition of marrying with each other. The real issue was later with people we moved. 2003-4 or close. Also I worked for sufferers witness which moved some families, mostly from Kashmir but there were other cases too. It was a Pakistani charity with lots of Nationalist influences.

Yeah , mate ... Why do not we see our own mistakes and shortcomings ? We criticize and sometimes insult everyone yet we aren't ready to acknowledge our mistakes and blunders ... The " mode of denial " isn't helping anyone ... Condemn violence on others equally how you do to yourself when it happens to your race , basic message ...

True.

You are welcome , brother ... You just need someone to clarify you things when you are in some sort of subconsciousness turmoil ...

And my posts too... they look like a jumbled mess at times. :D

Well , yeah ok If I criticize my race but unacceptable if others do it ... Why ? This is another thing I find unacceptable myself , instead people turn to racism to quitten others basically " shooting the messenger " again ... Yeah , people of same race criticizing themselves is very hurtful for the ethnic extremist , I know that from a long time ... Thats great , I feel my " talk therapy " is working finally ...

Yeah. And changes can be seen. I used to see darkinsky's posts-man he couldn't live without insulting a Punjabi, Sindhi or Pashtun. Sometimes I really feel things are working. But theres always something in these guys stopping them from you know crossing that bridge completely. Luffy tones down... then he comes back again with new racism. Probably someone will report his previous post actually (no 386)... it is insulting to Pakistan and has the potential to start an ugly race war. He is trying to provoke me and knows now I can't say the things I used to. :P Fun times for him.

Yes we are indifferent to races , we simply do not care ... If they are right , we join them in the bashing astonishing others ... Nobody needs race to survive , its not a matter of our existence ... I know very well why you adopted Pashtun race , for the unity of different races ... A noble cause , Secur would say ... No , you are making a great difference ... I didn't see anyone like that on this forum before , but still you cant convince everyone , not specially those who do not use their brain or do not feel the need to use it ...

Yeah... I wouldn't say all this research, all this study didn't have no effect. Initially it was love for Pashtuns which grew from an initial attraction which itself developed out of biases I saw, alienation with family and the realization that despite my and our organizations attempts to do away with race completely we could do nothing-they existed so by changing race I wasn't really being anti-Pakistani or taking part in the issues. After studying so much, I think anyone in my place might have been affected.

Later I understood that perhaps i could be a harbinger of change in this country with such actions... because how come when a Punjabi or Sindhi is insulted his Baloch or "Urdu speaking" countryman does not feel insulted or vice versa? They are our people-fellow Pakistanis. We are to protect all of them. They see me defending them... the ethnic boundaries disappear, maybe they do the same thing. Now it has become much more important. This cause of ethnic unity led me on when those people on the other forum abused me very badly. I seriously felt very angry... I came hoping to get support from them and acceptance. Those guys are really crazy. Hate is a strong term but I may be somewhere close to it in my feelings for Afghanistan.

Anyway in short there are many, many reasons for this indentity change even fascination with the past-the possible princess our forefathers married who happened to be of Pashtun descent which is still an unsolvable mystery. This adopting another identity is also a very novel approach to ending the ethnic issue. By trying to impose a Nationalist identity we have constantly been trying to obfuscate an existing reality. For example if a Nationalist party had come forward and changed name of NWFP to Pakhunkhwa there would be no support for ANP. Everyone knows their history anyway. But we lack that mentality-we couldn't actually see each province had a name and a single province stood out (even now its a case with FATA)... instead we tried to say no ethnic names but then Punjab, Sindh, Balochistan and Kashmir all have them. So on part of us Nationalists there has always been a lack of understanding or unwillingness to understand these intricacies.

Sad to hear it , bro ! I think you took all these things very seriously , I can confirm that sometimes psychological turmoils can manifest into physiological diseases , so try to be cool and composed while doing your job ... You will encounter many different sorts of people , do not let them get on your nerves ... Journalistic contacts are enough for now , focus on finishing the book and I think you will be able to regain your position some day ...

Yeah. I hope so.

I can sincerely advice you to get your book published first , the big fishes will automatically chase you themselves when they see the quality of your work ... One step at a time , I get it what do you mean by " big fishes " but please remember this is your novel ... A great deal of it will follow afterwards , attracting those big publishing companies ... So dont lose patience !

The thing is I don't want just any publisher. I want the book to be sell... initially when I started it I didn't but am in difficult condition now. My parents even don't think too highly of me. Lots of issues. Its necessary it goes with some company that is extremely strong.

Well bro , I stay updated on the news and the happenings in my country and I am still this optimistic ... :D But I will take your advice and never got that route ...

Yeah. And the thing is they always tell us you gotta be impartial... when you try to be a journalist leave your Nationalism behind. That is very annoying.

Well , yes 12,000 is nothing but the party is still in its infancy ... It will take sometime to rise like rest ...

Guess so... party is in our hearts. Not launched. It exists as basically a movement of a number of Nationalist organizations like Watan Parast Mahaz or Pakistan Nationalist Party... various other groups too.

You will ! Wait and watch ... We need to focus on education foremost ...

Thanks ! Congratz again for becoming Jr. Think Tank ! I will answer more on your Split Discussion : Muhajir Identity thread when I get more time ...

Thank you very much. You should have been here first secur.

I will make the request to Webbie... not very quickly though because I already asked once and me a new think tank so he may go like, you just came and already making demands.
 
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Did i hear this right ? A muhajir from U.P trying to become Pashtun ?

Ugh,here we go again.......Indians can't give you a break regarding this can they, @haviZsultan
@nick_indian , no its not embarassing at all.Its one of those things that shouldve been done longo ago.The muhajir identity was never suppoesd to manifest itself in the first place.
 
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Lol castes in Muslims and Islam. Even being a Muslims myself I don't know about. :rofl:

And a Hindu is lecturing us about it. This deserves a double :rofl:
 
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Lol castes in Muslims and Islam. Even being a Muslims myself I don't know about. :rofl:

And a Hindu is lecturing us about it. This deserves a double :rofl:

Mian Mustafa ansari would certainly disagree with you.

Allahpur, which is dominated by Ansaris (considered OBC), has been facing oppression from upper-caste Syeds and Pathans. Said Mustafa Ansari: &#8220;It all started in April 2004 when upper-caste Syeds and Pathans beat up a groom and some members of a wedding party because the groom who was going to marry an Ansari girl dared to travel in a Maruti car and cross houses of the Syeds.&#8221; He described conflicts between Syeds and Ansaris over using the common village road in 2005.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/afghan...s-out-pak-afghan-border-20.html#ixzz2I13w6XCA
 
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Mian Mustafa ansari would certainly disagree with you.

Lol I am an ansari myself and I never heard that we were being oppressed by some upper castes. If some Muslims in India behave stupid it doesn't mean that it is Islam that has castes or propagate castes. :lol:

And leave all these Mian Mustafa Ansari's aside. Because this is what the best person who ever walked on this planet said about brotherhood and equality among Muslims.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

Source: The Last Sermon

After this I don't think I need much to prove.
 
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Is it any surprise that Luffy finds common cause with one of the most vicious Indian trolls on this forum. @KS is basically trying to shift blame for the dalit he popped off last week-in his country it is very easy to frame a Muslim-a case to note would be the guy framed for the Jama Masjid case on false charges. Such cases go unreported in India as our past experience reveals anyway. They will find weak links like you wherever they can.

Luffy your posts always have the ability to start an ethnic war. Some MQM member reads this his head will be set on fire by this post. This is the only purpose you are here for, creating an ethnic war. And still no apology for the lies you have been telling, durkhanay and adam khan, sherbano and yusaf khan... how many more God knows. Did you delete that incriminating post. Cannot find it this time.

Personally I do not take too kindly about rubbish being posted our family to which I am still loyal to date but both you and MQM supporters are highly intolerant so a fight was inevitable in that case.

Actually the decline we see today of came after 47... before this our family once believed in a higher set of ideals and our maternal grandfather has an entire shrine dedicated to him, we struggled for the Pakistan movement though this fact is being obscured because a Muslim in Lucknow stating any link to Pakistan is painting a target on his back-so they do not talk about the sacrifices of Ansaris. Also you did not confirm whether you got my reply or not about what you said on that closed thread. Anyway, just to clarify some points here.

I am from the Firangi mahal house. Do you know what that is? It later went on to become a university of the time or a madrassa. The ansaris were actually royalty. Mullah Asad bin Qutab Shaheed (an Ansari and our ancestor) was at the court of Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb. Another thing was we were granted huge amounts of land in Oudh and other places. Since Qutb was murdered Arungzeb rewarded his sons with huge tracts of land. In Lucknow we were given massive houses. Hasrat Mohani died in Firangi Mahal. Top scholars and theologians came from and studied in the school we established.

I researched what you said objectively by the way and came upon some tensions in Bihar. Never heard of it personally nor do the relatives who live in Bihar every say anything about this. I think it was an isolated incident these people are actually using to shift a problem with their own system onto others.

Also I will tell you, yes, while in Lucknow I did notice there was bias against Dalits. A cousin refused to take something from a dalit (do note if we were low caste we would have found common cause with him) but that is basically adopted from people like @KS which is proof that it was a mistake to stay under their Indian yoke. I mean what could he do? If he treated a dalit nicely other Indians could possibly call him things like Dalit-lover so he was forced to treat them the same way as everyone else. Its peer pressure that plays a part and he was surprised when I challenged him even though till then I hadn't developed the habit of eating from the same plate as my driver (no separate cutlery and plates for naukers) and inviting low paid people to our Gandhara Estate to sit with us in drawing rooms.

My friend who often works for human rights spoke to Hindus in Pakistan. Their situation is terrible-particularly when bombs are going off minorities usually bear the brunt. But even one of the Hindus she did talk to had previously, in the past given an interview to a reporter from India in which he said that "Caste-system is the biggest problem for us. Get rid of it."

I think the caste system if you want to call it that exists only between rich and poor and it is noticeable in all of Pakistan, perhaps all over the world. I have never heard of this between families of Muslims though. That article on Bihar too might have been twisted from a land dispute of a poor family with a rich one to one of Ansari vs Syed. :lol:

By the way our Pir Roshan is said to be an Ansari? You like to insult your and my own people? I tell the MQM guys this and I am telling you this. No one is a pure Pashtun/or something else today... everyone has been part of dozens of migrations, in this world you never know who came from where and how he is presently settled in the region he is now. I hope you do know the legend about the Burkis having no Pashtun ancestry or heritage. Another thing is Abu Ayub Ansari from whom all Ansar are descended is actually a friend of the Prophet and where he stayed for many days. To please an Indian who probably divides his time between cutting down Muslims and Christians in Tamil Nadu while escaping TNLA rockets you are basically insulting a Prophets companion.

But I didn't expect less from you. Carry on. By the way topic was the revenge of Pakistani Pashtuns.

Dont do dramabaazi here and dont get hurt because someone called you a low caste convert.

It shouldn't matter to you.

Ugh,here we go again.......Indians can't give you a break regarding this can they, @haviZsultan
@nick_indian , no its not embarassing at all.Its one of those things that shouldve been done longo ago.The muhajir identity was never suppoesd to manifest itself in the first place.

yeah ok,muhajjir identity is not needed but how can one call himself a pashtun?

Is it like pick and choose?
 
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Lol I am an ansari myself and I never heard that we were being oppressed by some upper castes. If some Muslims in India behave stupid it doesn't mean that it is Islam that has castes or propagate castes. :lol:

And leave all these Mian Mustafa Ansari's aside. Because this is what the best person who ever walked on this planet said about brotherhood and equality among Muslims.



Source: The Last Sermon

After this I don't think I need much to prove.

I pity low caste muslims of subcontinent, they converted to islam in the hope of escaping caste system, as islam preaches equality. But the ruling elite of muslims still placed themeselves above the local converts. A syed is supposed to be equal to muslim julaha or chamar, but he arrogantly places himself above all muslims of subcontinent, his behaviour is totally unislamic.
 
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I pity low caste muslims of subcontinent, they converted to islam in the hope of escaping caste system, as islam preaches equality. But the ruling elite of muslims still placed themeselves above the local converts. A syed is supposed to be equal to muslim julaha or chamar, but he arrogantly places himself above all muslims of subcontinent, his behaviour is totally unislamic.

I pity on you for being delusional and believing that there is something like low caste muslims.

Talking about about so called low caste Muslim converts, one of them founded this country(Jinnah) and another one(Musharraf) ruled this country for almost ten years and was the most powerful person of his time. Dozens or even hundreds of them are now present in different fields and departments of this country. There might be a few incidents here and there. Doesn't prove that castes exist in Muslims or it is an important issue even worth to be discussed.
 
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Ugh,here we go again.......Indians can't give you a break regarding this can they, @haviZsultan
@nick_indian , no its not embarassing at all.Its one of those things that shouldve been done longo ago.The muhajir identity was never suppoesd to manifest itself in the first place.

It's shameful to be honest. And sad.
 
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May be time for Pashtuns from both side to unite. It benefits them as they get access to sea port and trade will improve the economy, Afghanistan as a country would continue to function independently but great co-operation with benefit both.
 
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Lol I am an ansari myself and I never heard that we were being oppressed by some upper castes..

Now I understand why you are getting worked up over this. So I will not further pess upon this as it might hurt your caste sensitivities.

And there are many things about India that you have never heard. Does not mean they are not true.

As for the Last sermon or whatever, quran also supposedly says dont kill innocent people. Duh.

As for the news itself, I did not invent it. It is reported in Indian Express, one of the most credible papers. So you can write your snide comments to the Editor of that.

Talking about about so called low caste Muslim converts, one of them founded this country(Jinnah) and another one(Musharraf) ruled this country for almost ten years and was the most powerful person of his time.

Jinnah saab was no low caste..He was a Khoja who are great merchants and Musharraf was a Syed..so they are considered Ashrafs.
 
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Now I understand why you are getting worked up over this. So I will not further pess upon this as it might hurt your caste sensitivities.

And there are many things about India that you have never heard. Does not mean they are not true.

As for the Last sermon or whatever, quran also supposedly says dont kill innocent people. Duh.

As for the news itself, I did not invent it. It is reported in Indian Express, one of the most credible papers. So you can write your snide comments to the Editor of that.

Nothing worked up dear. I don't even think about such lame issues. After all my religion has nothing to do with castes. Just sharing the truth about my religion since you were fed lies by those Khaki chaddi wearing losers of RSS all this time. There are no castes in Islam and the last sermon confirms it. If you have something from Quran or Holy Prophet(SAW) t oprove your point, then do it. It is just your countrymen who are playing stupid. Islam has nothing to do with it. Islam doesn't allow killing innocents and doesn't propagate something like castes. Just like a Hindu r@pist in Dehli doesn't mean it is Hinduism which allows its followers to r@pe and molest women.

Jinnah saab was no low caste..He was a Khoja who are great merchants and Musharraf was a Syed..so they are considered Ashrafs.

They were Muhajirs and had more power and authority than any Indian president. Their goes you propaganda about Muhajirs and all that. :lol:
 
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Nothing worked up dear. I don't even think about such lame issues. After all my religion has nothing to do with castes. Just sharing the truth about my religion since you were fed lies by those Khaki chaddi wearing losers of RSS all this time. There are no castes in Islam and the last sermon confirms it. If you have something from Quran or Holy Prophet(SAW) t oprove your point, then do it. It is just your countrymen who are playing stupid. Islam has nothing to do with it. Islam doesn't allow killing innocents and doesn't propagate something like castes. Just like a Hindu r@pist in Dehli doesn't mean it is Hinduism which allows its followers to r@pe and molest women.

Neither Indian Express nor Mian Mustafa Ansari who were bearing the brunt of upper caste Syeds are RSS wallahs. BTW I said this is primarily a Hindi belt phenomenon and you are from Hyderabad area I assume. So naturally you would not be knowing about it.

More for your reading

The Problem of Caste among Indian Muslims | Indian Muslims

http://hsa.sagepub.com/content/4/2/129.full.pdf

Allahpur: Low Caste Muslims | Pulitzer Center

Muslim Castes and Communities of India | IndianMuslimObserver.com

Ansaris are considered Ajlafs (low-caste) by the Ashrafs (Syeds, Pathans, Bukharis etc) whether you like or not.

My refernce to Musharraf and Jinnah was because you mentioned both and both were Ashrafs.
 
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Neither Indian Express nor Mian Mustafa Ansari who were bearing the brunt of upper caste Syeds are RSS wallahs. BTW I said this is primarily a Hindi belt phenomenon and you are from Hyderabad area I assume. So naturally you would not be knowing about it.

More for your reading

The Problem of Caste among Indian Muslims | Indian Muslims

http://hsa.sagepub.com/content/4/2/129.full.pdf

Allahpur: Low Caste Muslims | Pulitzer Center

Muslim Castes and Communities of India | IndianMuslimObserver.com

Ansaris are considered Ajlafs (low-caste) by the Ashrafs (Syeds, Pathans, Bukharis etc) whether you like or not.

My refernce to Musharraf and Jinnah was because you mentioned both and both were Ashrafs.

All the links that you have presented say the same thing that I said earlier. As I said it is the problem of Muslims of India. Indian muslims are the ones who are behaving stupid and unislamic. May be all this sh!t has came from the hindu majority they live with. After all it is hinduism which has this menace of castes. And Indian muslims are not the religion of Islam. In fact this shows that Indian muslims now need to get a few classes about fundamentals of Islam.

Ansaris are considered Ajlafs (low-caste) by the Ashrafs (Syeds, Pathans, Bukharis etc) whether you like or not.

Show it from Quran and Hadith. Indian express and that Mian Muzaffar are not an authority in Islam.

My refernce to Musharraf and Jinnah was because you mentioned both and both were Ashrafs.

Still they were Muhajirs. That's why I presented it as an example.

PS: Shaukat Aziz was the PM of Musharraf. He was from Bihar. Don't know whether he belonged to so called high caste of Muslims but still he was a Mohajir and the PM of Pakistan.
 
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All the links that you have presented say the same thing that I said earlier. As I said it is the problem of Muslims of India. Indian muslims are the ones who are behaving stupid and unislamic. May be all this sh!t has came from the hindu majority they live with. After all it is hinduism which has this menace of castes. And Indian muslims are not the religion of Islam. In fact this shows that Indian muslims now need to get a few classes about fundamentals of Islam.

Show it from Quran and Hadith. Indian express and that Mian Muzaffar are not an authority in Islam.

What I showed you is the ground reality of caste system in Islam and how the high caste Ashrafs oppress the low caste Ajlafs like Ansaris in Hindi belt.

It was primarily to refute the argument of havisultan about the complete absence of any such practise.

Whether its Islamic or not is not my concern or argument..just about the existence of such practises and how some ajlafs after migration to Pakistan took upon Ashraf names.


Still they were Muhajirs. That's why I presented it as an example.

PS: Shaukat Aziz was the PM of Musharraf. He was from Bihar. Don't know whether he belonged to so called high caste of Muslims but still he was a Mohajir and the PM of Pakistan.

Not all Mohajirs were from the Ajlaf category..like Musharraf...some were Ashrafs too.
 
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