Retooling Pakistani Military

[alibaz]

i agree to assad ul islam they are not Mujahideens, they are terrorists and posing them to be mujahideens. Secondly the affair is not as simple as it appears to be. we need to talk to our own people and foreigners to be thrown out.

 

[Blackpearl]

It seems that all the recent suicide attacks are carried ouyt after thorough planning and reconnisance of the area., to deliver a greater impact. Simply put, tribals (Mehshudis etc) alone cannot deliver this. There is definitely some external agency, helping them, plaaning and co-ordinating their moves. These misguided tribals hav become a toy in those external hands. RAW is a strong contender , for being involved in all this imbroglio. Since their is calm on our Eastern Border, RAW has successfully tied down major portion of Army at Western border.

 

[fatman17]

It seems that all the recent suicide attacks are carried ouyt after thorough planning and reconnisance of the area., to deliver a greater impact. Simply put, tribals (Mehshudis etc) alone cannot deliver this. There is definitely some external agency, helping them, plaaning and co-ordinating their moves. These misguided tribals hav become a toy in those external hands. RAW is a strong contender , for being involved in all this imbroglio. Since their is calm on our Eastern Border, RAW has successfully tied down major portion of Army at Western border.

come on guy! its al-qaeda - dont under-estimate their sophistication. after all they planned and executed the 911 attacks or dont u believe it! only pakistan is left for them to try and implement their extremism.

 

[Iceman]

The involvement of RAW in this entire game simply cannot be ruled out. THeir growing ties with Afghanistan, their counselates all along the Pakistan Afghan border and proven identities of their intelligence guys working there manifest their involvement in this affair.
Put two and two together, India has always blamed Pakistan for the Kashmir insurgency, and egoistic as they are, the followers of Chankya Katlya's policy are now trying to give Pakistan a taste of their own medicine. THe sad part is that these extremists never would have gone running to Indian's for help, it is them who must have come running offering their assistance. Just as they tried their level best to offer everything to USA in post 9/11 just to make sure that Pakistan is harmed. Too bad it did not work for them there and now they have their chance and they are cashing in on it pretty hard.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Actually there are a lots of uzbeks and arabs amongst others behind the new spate of violence. The arabs are coming through iran and smuggled into pakistan---these arabs are radicals from all over europe and mid east---the uzbeks are off-course from the neighbouring country---.

The uzbeks are behind vicious killings of people---.


Here is a problem that I have with the pakistani intelligence sources----all C 4 exploives have a trace element in them which tells the chemical analyst which factory in the world that batch of C 4 came from---the FBI would have in their record books the trace element history---is the agency pursuing along those grounds---if they know what the source of C 4 is---why isn't it brought out---what is the reason for hiding this information.

 

[Iceman]

The reminiscent of Afghan War are haunting us today. The massive influx of weapons and all kinds of mil accessories are still lying piled up in large caches in the entireties in Afghanistan. Plus the breakdown of Russia, which we as Pakistanis take personal pride in, has led to one of the largest blackmarkets of weapons the world has ever witnessed. I happen to have visited one of the ord depots in Pakistan where weapons captured from militants were being kept, and it came to me as such a surprise, since i was expecting american weapons from soviet war era, instead the weapons were all Russians. All types from rocket launchers to landmines to rockets and what and what not. Two possibilities, one ofcourse as i mentioned earlier, post Soviet Union weapon's black markets, or may b the indians are putting their redundant loads of weapons to a good use.....
something to consider... since Indian is undoubtedly one of the largest holders of Russians weapons for a long long time ....

 

[echo 1]

I think he meant learning their way of doing things. Israeli soldiers on Pakistni soil was not even considered.

And I agree with him that learning Israeli tactics like assasination of group leaders is useful.

Thank you that is what I was trying to say. Everyone here knows that Pakistan and Israeli solider do not mix. Not to mention that they are PRO-INDIAN and are doing more to help India and even supplying them advance weapon systems and UAVs. But by learning from thier tatics and how they conduct opperations it would help our soliders a lot.

OH and moha199 calm yourself down brother no true Pakistani would even think of such a thing as to letting Israeliz on to Pakistani soil

 

[moha199]

I think he meant learning their way of doing things. Israeli soldiers on Pakistni soil was not even considered.

And I agree with him that learning Israeli tactics like assasination of group leaders is useful.

Bro it what are you going to learn from Israel tell me??? let me guess !!!!! oh how do they kill all those high profile terrorists? ok here ill tell you this they have spy satellites! they pick satellite phone signals! what else hmmm nothing more i guess so for this you have to ask USA to give you those equipments !!! the one they have given to israel and the answer is no so i am still standing by my words No israeli forces for training we are better then them way better its just they are well equipt thats all about it again no hard feeling brothers

 

[JK!]

The Israelis as a nation are the modern Sparta. They are beset with external and internal threats yet despite that they have successfully defended their nation. There is much to learn from them as an example.

And its not just about spy satellites. They have unit Aman which gathers covert intelligence deep inside enemy territory. Satellites are a newer phase in their intelligence gathering activities.

Again I stress that Israeli troops would not be on Pakistani soil we are looking at their style of COIN ops and learning from it.

 

[moha199]

The Israelis as a nation are the modern Sparta. They are beset with external and internal threats yet despite that they have successfully defended their nation. There is much to learn from them as an example.

And its not just about spy satellites. They have unit Aman which gathers covert intelligence deep inside enemy territory. Satellites are a newer phase in their intelligence gathering activities.

Again I stress that Israeli troops would not be on Pakistani soil we are looking at their style of COIN ops and learning from it.

Ok buddy what are you telling me that they are new sparta of this time hmmmm charming words but not enough pleasing. They gather information and they have defended their nation so far good but i tell you this give Pakistan the same amount of AID every year then see where Pakistan go they have enough money given by USA to buy out people to give information that Pakistan lacks Bro money talks you give me that amount of money ill show you how batter job i do then Israealiz the bottom line is simple the whole world is with ISRAEL and they entire world is against us while pretending they are with us plus they have money and they have bought the same amount of people from inside Pakistan and thats the reason. I come to understanding that we have nothing to gain from them what we can learn is USA their FATHER and if we get what israel gets we will do way far better job then ISRAEL do and trust me on it.

 

[JK!]

Well thats one way of looking at it.

Its true that they recieve money vis FMF however it is Israeli boots on the ground not American in that theatre of war. The money they recieve buys big ticket items like jets but for low level equipment and tactics they look to their own industry.

For COIN ops in Iraq and Afghanistan the US is looking to the Israelis as an example and not the other way round.

 

[fatman17]

Well thats one way of looking at it.

Its true that they recieve money vis FMF however it is Israeli boots on the ground not American in that theatre of war. The money they recieve buys big ticket items like jets but for low level equipment and tactics they look to their own industry.

For COIN ops in Iraq and Afghanistan the US is looking to the Israelis as an example and not the other way round.

PA needs capacity and capability building suited to our environment. israelis fight in the desert, we have to fight in much more difficult terrain. training is a issue as the israelis are conscripted with high school education for 2-year periods while we have a volunteer army where our jawans get min. education levels.

 

[JK!]

I agree Fatman that Pakistan has a different environment but I still hold Israeli tactics in high esteem. So maybe other countries are worth looking at.

There was a terrorist organisation operating in Greece called November 17 that was destroyed by Greek SF units. Those units have to operate in mountainous conditions so that may be worth looking at.

Spanish special forces did something smilar with ETA's Bizkaia commando unit.

 

[blain2]

JK,

I think another huge difference (if we are talking about COIN tactics for Pakistan) between Israel and Pakistan is that Israelis are fine living segregated from those whom they are fighting. The tactics, measures, means, weapons are all deployed accordingly and get approved by the Israeli society (and recently even by the Israeli supreme court). For Pakistan this sort of approval is an impossibility as the tribals that need to be brought back to "rahay-raast" are part and parcel of the Pakistani nation. You cannot use excessive force, you cannot carry on with targeted killings indefinitely and you cannot build a 16 ft high wall between the tribal areas and the rest of Pakistan hoping to protect the mainland while you prosecute a COIN campaign against them.

So tactically, you can learn from the Israelis to a certain extent, but strategically, their handling of the Palestinians has backfired and will continue to backfire. What Pakistan needs is a hybrid solution where force, political, economic and socials incentives are used in unison. This is the only way out. Forget thinking about beating these guys into submission. It will not happen. What GoP can do is put enough military pressure so that they have a better leverage on the negotiations to follow than the tribals. Beyond that, its deft diplomacy which would yield the results.

 

[JK!]

JK,

I think another huge difference (if we are talking about COIN tactics for Pakistan) between Israel and Pakistan is that Israelis are fine living segregated from those whom they are fighting. The tactics, measures, means, weapons are all deployed accordingly and get approved by the Israeli society (and recently even by the Israeli supreme court). For Pakistan this sort of approval is an impossibility as the tribals that need to be brought back to "rahay-raast" are part and parcel of the Pakistani nation. You cannot use excessive force, you cannot carry on with targeted killings indefinitely and you cannot build a 16 ft high wall between the tribal areas and the rest of Pakistan hoping to protect the mainland while you prosecute a COIN campaign against them.

So tactically, you can learn from the Israelis to a certain extent, but strategically, their handling of the Palestinians has backfired and will continue to backfire. What Pakistan needs is a hybrid solution where force, political, economic and socials incentives are used in unison. This is the only way out. Forget thinking about beating these guys into submission. It will not happen. What GoP can do is put enough military pressure so that they have a better leverage on the negotiations to follow than the tribals. Beyond that, its deft diplomacy which would yield the results.

No doubt about it that the situation is different and I agree that Pakistan needs to handle things differently. My views on the IDF comes more from a respect for their capabilities and as a Military.

Socio-economic processes will help out but like the Brits in Helmand there needs to be security in place first. In my opinion the force to bring that security is the Pakistan army and they should take decisive action to do so with the right tools as highlighted by Haider in the opening post.

I have posted two examples of other Special Forces organisations and their success against Terrorists operating on their home soil and I'll try to dig up more info on that.