[Request] Source of Sprartly Islands Belonging to China

[Grand Historian]

Did you not read it carefully?

Back then, the name of Vietnam was not yet created but instead "交趾郡" was known. Do read it here:

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/交趾郡

Furthermore, 尚书大传 and 竹書紀年 are both ancient books ... BTW, forget not 秦始皇 had burned so many books too.

Bamboo Annals are older than Shangshu Dazhuan.

 

[yusheng]

文章摘自《中华人民共和国国务院公报》1956年43期

越南民主共和国

总理府

尊敬的总理同志：

我们郑重的向总理同志声明：

越南民主共和国政府承认和赞成中华人民共和国政府于1958年9月4日所作的关于中国领海的决定和声明。

我们向总理同志致以诚挚的敬意！

1958年9月14日于河内

敬致北京，中华人民共和国国务院总理周恩来同志

越南民主共和国政府总理：范文同（签名、盖章）

附：中华人民共和国政府关于领海的声明(1958年9月4日)

中华人民共和国政府宣布（一）中华人民共和国的领海宽度为12海里。这项规定适用于中华人民共和国的一切领土，包括中国大陆及其沿海岛屿，和同大陆及其沿海岛屿隔有公海的台湾及其周围各岛、澎湖列岛、东沙群岛、西沙群岛、中沙群岛、南沙群岛以及其他属于中国的岛屿。（二）中国大陆及其沿海岛屿的领海以连接大陆岸上和沿海岸外缘岛屿上各基点之间的各直线为基线，从基线向外延伸12海里的水域是中国的领海。在基线以内的水域，包括渤海湾、琼州海峡在内、都是中国的内海、在基线以内的岛屿，包括东引岛、高登岛、马祖列岛、白犬列岛、乌岳岛、大小金门岛、大担岛、二担岛、东碇岛在内，都是中国的内海。（三）一切外国飞机和军用船舶，未经中华人民共和国政府的许可，不得进入中国的领海和领海上空。任何外国船舶在中国领海航行，必须遵守中华人民共和国政府的有关法令。

（四）以上（一）（二）两项规定的原则同样适用于台湾及其周围各岛、澎湖列岛、东沙群岛、西沙群岛、南沙群岛以及其他属于中国的岛屿。

台湾和澎湖地区现在仍然被美国武力侵占，这是侵犯中华人民共和国领土完整的和主权的非法行为。台湾和澎湖等地尚待收复，中华人民共和国政府有权采取一切适当的方法在适当的时候，收复这些地区，这是中国的内政，不容外国干涉。

 

[EastSea]

文章摘自《中华人民共和国国务院公报》1956年43期

越南民主共和国

总理府

尊敬的总理同志：

我们郑重的向总理同志声明：

越南民主共和国政府承认和赞成中华人民共和国政府于1958年9月4日所作的关于中国领海的决定和声明。

我们向总理同志致以诚挚的敬意！

1958年9月14日于河内

敬致北京，中华人民共和国国务院总理周恩来同志

越南民主共和国政府总理：范文同（签名、盖章）

附：中华人民共和国政府关于领海的声明(1958年9月4日)

中华人民共和国政府宣布（一）中华人民共和国的领海宽度为12海里。这项规定适用于中华人民共和国的一切领土，包括中国大陆及其沿海岛屿，和同大陆及其沿海岛屿隔有公海的台湾及其周围各岛、澎湖列岛、东沙群岛、西沙群岛、中沙群岛、南沙群岛以及其他属于中国的岛屿。（二）中国大陆及其沿海岛屿的领海以连接大陆岸上和沿海岸外缘岛屿上各基点之间的各直线为基线，从基线向外延伸12海里的水域是中国的领海。在基线以内的水域，包括渤海湾、琼州海峡在内、都是中国的内海、在基线以内的岛屿，包括东引岛、高登岛、马祖列岛、白犬列岛、乌岳岛、大小金门岛、大担岛、二担岛、东碇岛在内，都是中国的内海。（三）一切外国飞机和军用船舶，未经中华人民共和国政府的许可，不得进入中国的领海和领海上空。任何外国船舶在中国领海航行，必须遵守中华人民共和国政府的有关法令。

（四）以上（一）（二）两项规定的原则同样适用于台湾及其周围各岛、澎湖列岛、东沙群岛、西沙群岛、南沙群岛以及其他属于中国的岛屿。

台湾和澎湖地区现在仍然被美国武力侵占，这是侵犯中华人民共和国领土完整的和主权的非法行为。台湾和澎湖等地尚待收复，中华人民共和国政府有权采取一切适当的方法在适当的时候，收复这些地区，这是中国的内政，不容外国干涉。

View attachment 31697

1/ China and North Vietnam signed Geneva accords 1954 agreed that Islands belong to South Vietnam. North Vietnam didn't have right over Islands of South Vietnam.

2/ Letter didn't mentioned about Islands, It is said that North Vietnam authorities in North take care about 12 miles coast line of mainland related to North Vietnam only.

China stop lying about such useless letter.

 

[Zsari]

1/ China and North Vietnam signed Geneva accords 1954 agreed that Islands belong to South Vietnam. North Vietnam didn't have right over Islands of South Vietnam.

2/ Letter didn't mentioned about Islands, It is said that North Vietnam authorities in North take care about 12 miles coast line of mainland related to North Vietnam only.

China stop lying about such useless letter.

Below is the full text of the Geneva Accords. Nowhere does it say anything about the Paracel & Spratly island, let along assign ownership over them.

Geneva Accords

 

[Peter]

Below is the full text of the Geneva Accords. Nowhere does it say anything about the Paracel & Spratly island, let along assign ownership over them.

Geneva Accords

I assume you understand English, Zsari

"All coastal islands (north of this boundary) shall be evacuated by the armed forces of the French union, and all islands (south of it) shall he evacuated by the forces of the People's Army of Viet-Nam."

This boundary is the near the 17th parallel.

I also assume you know how to read a map and its coordinates that north of this 17th parallel and south of this 17th parallel in order to see that all Paracel and Spratly islands are in the south of it.

I hope you do ...

 

[Peter]

Bamboo Annals are older than Shangshu Dazhuan.

Prove it! Shangshu Dazhuan series got away from books-burning era and had handed down from ancient times ...

You have to understand one thing that Bamboo Annals did mention Yuechang and many other history books elaborated in detail of where this Yuechang clan was located.

 

[Zsari]

I assume you understand English, Zsari

"All coastal islands (north of this boundary) shall be evacuated by the armed forces of the French union, and all islands (south of it) shall he evacuated by the forces of the People's Army of Viet-Nam."

This boundary is the near the 17th parallel.

I also assume you know how to read a map and its coordinates that north of this 17th parallel and south of this 17th parallel in order to see that all Paracel and Spratly islands are in the south of it.

I hope you do ...

Do you know the meaning of coastal islands? You think you can draw that line indefinitely into the ocean?

Here is the full text of Article 4.

"The provisional military demarcation line between the two final regrouping zones is extended into the territorial waters by a line perpendicular to the general line of the coast.

All coastal islands north of this boundary shall be evacuated by the armed forces of the French union, and all islands south of it shall he evacuated by the forces of the People's Army of Viet-Nam."

The boundary only extend into the territorial waters, which means 12nm off the Vietnamese coast. That's actually evidence that the Paracel & Spartly islands do not belong to either government.

 

[Grand Historian]

Prove it! Shangshu Dazhuan series got away from books-burning era and had handed down from ancient times ...

You have to understand one thing that Bamboo Annals did mention Yuechang and many other history books elaborated in detail of where this Yuechang clan was located.

Our modern day one is compiled by Fu Sheng of the Western Han while Bamboo Annals was found from a grave dating to the Warring States.

It doesn't matter if latter day books wrote this or that,the first texts didn't ie Jizi existed as the uncle of the last King of Shang however Jizi being granted a personal fief named Chaoxian is a latter day fabrication(unless the location of Chaoxian is not in Korea).

Same logic can apply to Van Lang,Chinese texts mention it relatively late ie Song dynasty in the Taiping Yulan(太平御覽)

All it stated that the area was named Feng Zhou(峰州) during the Sui-Tang era,(before that it was known as Xiang,Jiaozhi,Xinchang etc) and that Van Lang was a kingdom located there,however it doesn't mention a ruler,its size and its interaction with Chinese states.

Before that 文郎 was used as part of a title ie 司文郎 which had nothing to do with Northern Vietnam.

 

[Peter]

Do you know the meaning of coastal islands? You think you can draw that line indefinitely into the ocean?

Here is the full text of Article 4.

"The provisional military demarcation line between the two final regrouping zones is extended into the territorial waters by a line perpendicular to the general line of the coast.

All coastal islands north of this boundary shall be evacuated by the armed forces of the French union, and all islands south of it shall he evacuated by the forces of the People's Army of Viet-Nam."

The boundary only extend into the territorial waters, which means 12nm off the Vietnamese coast. That's actually evidence that the Paracel & Spartly islands do not belong to either government.

Don't you get it, "all islands south of it" (17th parallel) ... not coastal islands from the North.

Paracel Islands Timeline:

1537 Portuguese sailor de Pinto names the islands the Ilhas dos Tavaquerro.
1816 Vietnamese flag planted in a formal ceremony on the Paracels.
1885 China restates its claim to the islands.
17 Oct 1887 Claimed by France as part of French Indochina (see Vietnam).
1932 China protests French sovereignty over the islands.
25 Jul 1933 Annexed to French Indochina (see Vietnam), part of Ba Ria province.
13 Jul 1938 - Aug 1945 Japanese occupation.
23 Apr 1939 Japan declares sovereignty over the Paracel Islands.
1941 Annexed by Japan, part of Taiwan province.
18 Jan 1947 Claimed by Republic of China (Xisha Islands), part of Guangdong province.
1949 Claimed by Vietnam.
7 Jul 1951 Claimed by South Vietnam.
8 Sep 1951 Japan officially renounces sovereignty by Treaty of San Francisco.
24 Mar 1953 China creates the 'Paracels, Spratlys, and Zhongsha Islands
Authority' established as a county-level administrative division
on Woody Island (named 4 Mar 1963 - 22 Oct 1981 Paracels,
Spratlys, and Zhongsha Islands Revolutionary Committee) within
Guangdong (from 1984 Hainan).
22 Oct 1956 Formally annexed by South Vietnam, part of Phuoc Tuy province.
15 Jun 1956 North Vietnam declares that the Xisha and Nansha (Spratly) Islands are historically Chinese territories.
13 Jul 1961 Placed under Quang Nam province by South Vietnam.
19 Jan 1974 Annexed by the People's Republic of China, part of Guangdong province (from 13 Apr 1988, Hainan province); South Vietnamese forces are expelled.
2 Jul 1976 Claimed by Vietnam (Hoang Sa).


Therefore, Paracel Islands were claimed back and forth between Vietnam and China for more than 100 years. However, the fact had shown that in 1816 Vietnamese flag planted in a formal ceremony on the Paracels.

You can rest your case now and that is why China would not ever attempt to take this dispute to the International Court.

 

[Peter]

Our modern day one is compiled by Fu Sheng of the Western Han while Bamboo Annals was found from a grave dating to the Warring States.

It doesn't matter if latter day books wrote this or that,the first texts didn't ie Jizi existed as the uncle of the last King of Shang however Jizi being granted a personal fief named Chaoxian is a latter day fabrication(unless the location of Chaoxian is not in Korea).

Same logic can apply to Van Lang,Chinese texts mention it relatively late ie Song dynasty in the Taiping Yulan(太平御覽)

All it stated that the area was named Feng Zhou(峰州) during the Sui-Tang era,(before that it was known as Xiang,Jiaozhi,Xinchang etc) and that Van Lang was a kingdom located there,however it doesn't mention a ruler,its size and its interaction with Chinese states.

Before that 文郎 was used as part of a title ie 司文郎 which had nothing to do with Northern Vietnam.

太平御覽 - collection of past ancient historical pieces of writing due to the fact of many ancient books were burnt. Therefore, Yuechang was mentioned (in the first texts) and pointed out where it was and now is.... (latter day books) only meant that (in the first texts) had not documented in detail. That's all. Agree!?

We are debating Yuechang at the moment and let resolve it first before getting carry away with 峰州 or 文郎.

 

[Zsari]

Don't you get it, "all islands south of it" (17th parallel) ... not coastal islands from the North.

Talk about taking things out of context. The boundaries are already definied in the first pharagraph. I was being generous to use today's standard of 12nm as territorial water, for at the time of the signing, territorial water is definied as only 3nm.

Paracel Islands Timeline:

1537 Portuguese sailor de Pinto names the islands the Ilhas dos Tavaquerro.
1816 Vietnamese flag planted in a formal ceremony on the Paracels.
1885 China restates its claim to the islands.
17 Oct 1887 Claimed by France as part of French Indochina (see Vietnam).
1932 China protests French sovereignty over the islands.
25 Jul 1933 Annexed to French Indochina (see Vietnam), part of Ba Ria province.
13 Jul 1938 - Aug 1945 Japanese occupation.
23 Apr 1939 Japan declares sovereignty over the Paracel Islands.
1941 Annexed by Japan, part of Taiwan province.
18 Jan 1947 Claimed by Republic of China (Xisha Islands), part of Guangdong province.
1949 Claimed by Vietnam.
7 Jul 1951 Claimed by South Vietnam.
8 Sep 1951 Japan officially renounces sovereignty by Treaty of San Francisco.
24 Mar 1953 China creates the 'Paracels, Spratlys, and Zhongsha Islands
Authority' established as a county-level administrative division
on Woody Island (named 4 Mar 1963 - 22 Oct 1981 Paracels,
Spratlys, and Zhongsha Islands Revolutionary Committee) within
Guangdong (from 1984 Hainan).
22 Oct 1956 Formally annexed by South Vietnam, part of Phuoc Tuy province.
15 Jun 1956 North Vietnam declares that the Xisha and Nansha (Spratly) Islands are historically Chinese territories.
13 Jul 1961 Placed under Quang Nam province by South Vietnam.
19 Jan 1974 Annexed by the People's Republic of China, part of Guangdong province (from 13 Apr 1988, Hainan province); South Vietnamese forces are expelled.
2 Jul 1976 Claimed by Vietnam (Hoang Sa).


Therefore, Paracel Islands were claimed back and forth between Vietnam and China for more than 100 years. However, the fact had shown that in 1816 Vietnamese flag planted in a formal ceremony on the Paracels.

And Chinese can trace their timeline on the islands back to 600AD. All of what you listed are rather meaningless for Vietnam cease to be a sovereign entity after the French colonization. Moreover, you missed a big one in your timeline. Read the Sino-Tonkin delimitation line between China & France.

 

[EastSea]

文章摘自《中华人民共和国国务院公报》1956年43期

越南民主共和国

总理府

尊敬的总理同志：

我们郑重的向总理同志声明：

越南民主共和国政府承认和赞成中华人民共和国政府于1958年9月4日所作的关于中国领海的决定和声明。

我们向总理同志致以诚挚的敬意！

1958年9月14日于河内

敬致北京，中华人民共和国国务院总理周恩来同志

越南民主共和国政府总理：范文同（签名、盖章）

附：中华人民共和国政府关于领海的声明(1958年9月4日)

中华人民共和国政府宣布（一）中华人民共和国的领海宽度为12海里。这项规定适用于中华人民共和国的一切领土，包括中国大陆及其沿海岛屿，和同大陆及其沿海岛屿隔有公海的台湾及其周围各岛、澎湖列岛、东沙群岛、西沙群岛、中沙群岛、南沙群岛以及其他属于中国的岛屿。（二）中国大陆及其沿海岛屿的领海以连接大陆岸上和沿海岸外缘岛屿上各基点之间的各直线为基线，从基线向外延伸12海里的水域是中国的领海。在基线以内的水域，包括渤海湾、琼州海峡在内、都是中国的内海、在基线以内的岛屿，包括东引岛、高登岛、马祖列岛、白犬列岛、乌岳岛、大小金门岛、大担岛、二担岛、东碇岛在内，都是中国的内海。（三）一切外国飞机和军用船舶，未经中华人民共和国政府的许可，不得进入中国的领海和领海上空。任何外国船舶在中国领海航行，必须遵守中华人民共和国政府的有关法令。

（四）以上（一）（二）两项规定的原则同样适用于台湾及其周围各岛、澎湖列岛、东沙群岛、西沙群岛、南沙群岛以及其他属于中国的岛屿。

台湾和澎湖地区现在仍然被美国武力侵占，这是侵犯中华人民共和国领土完整的和主权的非法行为。台湾和澎湖等地尚待收复，中华人民共和国政府有权采取一切适当的方法在适当的时候，收复这些地区，这是中国的内政，不容外国干涉。

View attachment 31697

As I said the letter is useless to China lying. Islands was part of territory of Anman Emperor before France taken protectorate over all the country.

In fact ROC has been signed with France the Chongqing agreement 1946 and withdrawal army from Vietnam, included the Island Itu Aba, let France to accept the surrender of Japan army in all Vietnam.


Related to Senkaku dispute. ROC presiden Lee Teng Hui said that Senkaku belong to Japna. What do Chinese think ?

Ex-Taiwanese President says Japan owns disputed Senkaku islands
Tokyo, Jan. 18 (ANI): Former Taiwanese President Lee Teng-hui has reiterated that the disputed Senkaku Islands are Japanese territory based on international law.


Ex-Taiwanese President says Japan owns disputed Senkaku islands , AniNews.in

 

[Grand Historian]

太平御覽 - collection of past ancient historical pieces of writing due to the fact of many ancient books were burnt. Therefore, Yuechang was mentioned (in the first texts) and pointed out where it was and now is.... (latter day books) only meant that (in the first texts) had not documented in detail. That's all. Agree!?

We are debating Yuechang at the moment and let resolve it first before getting carry away with 峰州 or 文郎.

My point is later day additions often embellish the original story regardless Shangshu Dazhuan is predated by the Bamboo Annals.

Even if Yuechang was located in modern day Vietnam I don't see how it proves the existence of Van Lang.

 

[Peter]

My point is later day additions often embellish the original story regardless Shangshu Dazhuan is predated by the Bamboo Annals.

Even if Yuechang was located in modern day Vietnam I don't see how it proves the existence of Van Lang.

As I said, "We are debating Yuechang at the moment and let resolve it first before getting carry away with 峰州 or 文郎" and you came to understand that "Even if Yuechang was located in modern day Vietnam" then you have to know Yuechang was Vietnam nowadays ... Agree!?

We'll discuss of Van Lang later ...

 

[Grand Historian]

As I said, "We are debating Yuechang at the moment and let resolve it first before getting carry away with 峰州 or 文郎" and you came to understand that "Even if Yuechang was located in modern day Vietnam" then you have to know Yuechang was Vietnam nowadays ... Agree!?

We'll discuss of Van Lang later ...

No its a Han era fabrication otherwise quote a Spring Autumn/Warring States text that states Yuechang was in Vietnam.