salman nedian
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Report: India may attack Pakistan
- Thread starter Black Stone
- Start date
Vinod2070
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Bakre ki maan tab tak khair manaati rahe jab tak khud se hamla nahin karti.
The attack has already been done in the form of 26/11 and so many other times. Not it's the time for payback.
Vinod2070
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How much time would it take for Assamese to throw them all out only if the vote hungry politicians allow them?
Not more than a week! But even these politicians have a limit.
They are living there on borrowed time.
Flintlock
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Are you freaking kidding me?
Can you not see that your desperate, poor countrymen are migrating not out of a desire to glorify B'desh or Islam but simply in search of food and water?
Its amazing what lengths people go to in order to delude themselves.
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RabzonKhan
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Sorry folks for the interruption
..
Cry of the hawks
Opinion
By Ahmad Faruqui
December 22, 2008
THE carnage in Mumbai has yielded one benefit. It has unmasked the warmongers on both sides. The picture that has emerged is not pretty. Editorial pages overflow with poisoned words.
And the air waves are thick with bigotry. Unlike Abraham Lincoln at the close of the American Civil War, there is no one in either India or Pakistan who has found a transcendent meaning in the carnage.
On the Indian side, one hears talk of revenge and instant justice. Muslims, not just Pakistanis, are the eternal villains in this plot, pumped up with the passions that flow from consuming the sacred cow. The hawks have little interest in negotiating a solution to Kashmir. In their eyes, that means handing victory over to the enemy. They contend that it is vital for the Indian Union to have a Muslim-majority state.
On the Pakistani side, a hawk argues that the Indians cannot be trusted to abide by any peace agreement. Another claims that the fourth war between India and Pakistan has already begun, citing the IAFs violation of Pakistani air space. He goes on to brag that Pakistan will prevail militarily over India in any conflict even though it has lost in all past encounters.
Unnamed military officials declare that if India attacks, the Pakistan Army would transfer troops from the tribal areas to the eastern front and the patriotic Taliban would be enlisted to assist in the final encounter with India. A retired general officer is even less shy about invoking Armageddon. He says Pakistan would unleash a nuclear barrage on India in the event of an attack.
Such bluster by senior military officials would never be aired anywhere else. They simply confirm that Pakistans national security establishment does not have the maturity to be trusted with nuclear weapons. The hawks refuse to accept responsibility for harbouring terrorists on Pakistani soil and continue to blame the Mumbai attacks on agents of the CIA and the Mossad. One conspiracy theorist even accuses the Indian intelligence agency of self-engineering the attack.
In their eyes India has not reconciled itself to the partition of 1947. Ergo, it is an existential threat. Having created Bangladesh out of East Pakistan in 1971, it is now out to create a West Bangladesh and re-establish Akhand Bharat.
Sadly, schadenfreude about India abounds in Pakistan, even among the moderates. For many, the Mumbai tragedy simply highlights serious fissures in Indias polity. They took comfort in seeing 10 militants holding up countless hotel guests and hundreds of commandos at bay for 60 hours. To them, this was proof that Indians did not know how to fight, that India was nowhere close to being the rising power that the world media was saying it had become.
The hawks on neither side see the deep-rooted problems in their own strategic culture. Introspection is not their forte. Nuance and texture are nowhere to be found in their diction. The hawks in India dont realise that the secularity of India, a country with a billion citizens, cannot rest on the inclusion in its body politic of a state of 10 million. It is time that the authorities in New Delhi did something to improve the lot of the 150-million-plus Muslims that reside in India. Wrongdoers like Chief Minister Narendra Modi who presided over a pogrom in Gujarat should be brought to justice, not left free to roam the country, fanning the fires of communal hatred.And, most fundamentally, India has to accept its responsibility for creating the conditions that led Jinnah, the fierce champion of Hindu-Muslim unity, to seek a separate nation for the Muslims. The German word for coming to terms with the past, Vergangenheitsbewaltigung, is worth pondering.
As for the hawks in Pakistan, they have to realise that when their leaders have made a hash of managing their four provinces, why would they fare any better in a fifth? It is time to stop indulging in past glories. It does little to name ballistic missiles after Muslim rulers from Afghanistan who conquered India during the Middle Ages. Nor does it do much to name naval ships after the great Mughals.
In the 21st century, one has to look beyond territory and ideology and focus on human and social development. Against this backdrop, militants who kill innocents emerge as enemies of the human race, the hostis humani generis of Cicero.
Despite the crying of the hawks, armed attacks in the Valley of Kashmir are at an all-time low since the insurgency of 1989. As Yaroslov Trofimov noted recently in the Wall Street Journal, Indias biggest foe in Kashmir is no longer a Pakistani-sponsored militancy. The new threat comes from a civil disobedience movement that is being carried out in the best Gandhian tradition. It is being led by Mirwaiz Umar Farooq who says, India is not scared of the guns here in Kashmir [but it is scared of] people coming out in the streets, people seeing the power of non-violent struggle.
Mufti Muhammad Sayeed, Indias home minister at the peak of the insurgency and the states chief minister during 2002-05, agrees. Sayeed notes that there is a big difference between killing a militant versus killing a demonstrator. The general public, which regards the former as justified, condemns the latter. The zeitgeist of the resistance in Kashmir is hewing toward protests, not bombs. Policymakers in New Delhi and Islamabad need to capitalise on this shift in tactics to solve the Kashmir problem.
This shift in tactics in Kashmir is a pointed rebuke to the terror-mongers in Pakistan. It is time for them to stop brainwashing the youth of the land and sending them abroad on missions of hatred. Acts of terror present the biggest threat to the arc of progress in Pakistan. History has shown over and over again that confrontation with India is pointless. It is time to extend the hand of friendship towards those who reside east of the border. Indians are more like Pakistanis than any other nation.
It is time to unite to fight the common enemy, which is terrorists in the near term, and poverty, hunger, illiteracy and disease in the long term. It is time to stop being prisoners of the past. It is time to focus on the future.
Please carry on.
Cry of the hawks
Opinion
By Ahmad Faruqui
December 22, 2008
THE carnage in Mumbai has yielded one benefit. It has unmasked the warmongers on both sides. The picture that has emerged is not pretty. Editorial pages overflow with poisoned words.
And the air waves are thick with bigotry. Unlike Abraham Lincoln at the close of the American Civil War, there is no one in either India or Pakistan who has found a transcendent meaning in the carnage.
On the Indian side, one hears talk of revenge and instant justice. Muslims, not just Pakistanis, are the eternal villains in this plot, pumped up with the passions that flow from consuming the sacred cow. The hawks have little interest in negotiating a solution to Kashmir. In their eyes, that means handing victory over to the enemy. They contend that it is vital for the Indian Union to have a Muslim-majority state.
On the Pakistani side, a hawk argues that the Indians cannot be trusted to abide by any peace agreement. Another claims that the fourth war between India and Pakistan has already begun, citing the IAFs violation of Pakistani air space. He goes on to brag that Pakistan will prevail militarily over India in any conflict even though it has lost in all past encounters.
Unnamed military officials declare that if India attacks, the Pakistan Army would transfer troops from the tribal areas to the eastern front and the patriotic Taliban would be enlisted to assist in the final encounter with India. A retired general officer is even less shy about invoking Armageddon. He says Pakistan would unleash a nuclear barrage on India in the event of an attack.
Such bluster by senior military officials would never be aired anywhere else. They simply confirm that Pakistans national security establishment does not have the maturity to be trusted with nuclear weapons. The hawks refuse to accept responsibility for harbouring terrorists on Pakistani soil and continue to blame the Mumbai attacks on agents of the CIA and the Mossad. One conspiracy theorist even accuses the Indian intelligence agency of self-engineering the attack.
In their eyes India has not reconciled itself to the partition of 1947. Ergo, it is an existential threat. Having created Bangladesh out of East Pakistan in 1971, it is now out to create a West Bangladesh and re-establish Akhand Bharat.
Sadly, schadenfreude about India abounds in Pakistan, even among the moderates. For many, the Mumbai tragedy simply highlights serious fissures in Indias polity. They took comfort in seeing 10 militants holding up countless hotel guests and hundreds of commandos at bay for 60 hours. To them, this was proof that Indians did not know how to fight, that India was nowhere close to being the rising power that the world media was saying it had become.
The hawks on neither side see the deep-rooted problems in their own strategic culture. Introspection is not their forte. Nuance and texture are nowhere to be found in their diction. The hawks in India dont realise that the secularity of India, a country with a billion citizens, cannot rest on the inclusion in its body politic of a state of 10 million. It is time that the authorities in New Delhi did something to improve the lot of the 150-million-plus Muslims that reside in India. Wrongdoers like Chief Minister Narendra Modi who presided over a pogrom in Gujarat should be brought to justice, not left free to roam the country, fanning the fires of communal hatred.And, most fundamentally, India has to accept its responsibility for creating the conditions that led Jinnah, the fierce champion of Hindu-Muslim unity, to seek a separate nation for the Muslims. The German word for coming to terms with the past, Vergangenheitsbewaltigung, is worth pondering.
As for the hawks in Pakistan, they have to realise that when their leaders have made a hash of managing their four provinces, why would they fare any better in a fifth? It is time to stop indulging in past glories. It does little to name ballistic missiles after Muslim rulers from Afghanistan who conquered India during the Middle Ages. Nor does it do much to name naval ships after the great Mughals.
In the 21st century, one has to look beyond territory and ideology and focus on human and social development. Against this backdrop, militants who kill innocents emerge as enemies of the human race, the hostis humani generis of Cicero.
Despite the crying of the hawks, armed attacks in the Valley of Kashmir are at an all-time low since the insurgency of 1989. As Yaroslov Trofimov noted recently in the Wall Street Journal, Indias biggest foe in Kashmir is no longer a Pakistani-sponsored militancy. The new threat comes from a civil disobedience movement that is being carried out in the best Gandhian tradition. It is being led by Mirwaiz Umar Farooq who says, India is not scared of the guns here in Kashmir [but it is scared of] people coming out in the streets, people seeing the power of non-violent struggle.
Mufti Muhammad Sayeed, Indias home minister at the peak of the insurgency and the states chief minister during 2002-05, agrees. Sayeed notes that there is a big difference between killing a militant versus killing a demonstrator. The general public, which regards the former as justified, condemns the latter. The zeitgeist of the resistance in Kashmir is hewing toward protests, not bombs. Policymakers in New Delhi and Islamabad need to capitalise on this shift in tactics to solve the Kashmir problem.
This shift in tactics in Kashmir is a pointed rebuke to the terror-mongers in Pakistan. It is time for them to stop brainwashing the youth of the land and sending them abroad on missions of hatred. Acts of terror present the biggest threat to the arc of progress in Pakistan. History has shown over and over again that confrontation with India is pointless. It is time to extend the hand of friendship towards those who reside east of the border. Indians are more like Pakistanis than any other nation.
It is time to unite to fight the common enemy, which is terrorists in the near term, and poverty, hunger, illiteracy and disease in the long term. It is time to stop being prisoners of the past. It is time to focus on the future.
Please carry on.
Vinod2070
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I read a report earlier that the Saudi part of the Ummah (and perhaps some other Arabs) were planning to throw the Bangladeshi part of the Ummah out!
Because they seem to indulge in too much crime in those countries.
A familiar trait? Stab in the backs of those who help you, save your lives and honor!
TopCat
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There are people who try to make fun of the poor who are the most marginalized people of south asia and are just trying to earn their bread. No matter how humiliating those jobs are and nobdoy should be proud of that. I visited so many countries and found people from all the countries of south asia doing the same toileting (IND/Pak/BD/SL/NP). You name it... I even worked for a restaurant in USA in my student era.. and found jobs for few Indian friends who were crying not able to pay their tution. They were as good in toileting as me... No offense to anybody... It is easier to come to forum or sit on an IT desk and dream of Chandrayan will win the third world war, but at the end of the day, it all come down to, where the next meal going to come from...
third eye
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RabzonKhan
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Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons. Bertrand Russell
You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race. George Bernard Shaw
Patriot games
By Irfan Husain
December 20, 2008
FEW things bring patriotism rushing to the surface as being under attack. For India, the Nov 26 assault on Mumbai was very real.
But for millions of Pakistanis, the accusation that their country was the base for this act of terrorism was an attack as well. For the last three weeks, they have endured lectures from everybody from Condi Rice to Gordon Brown to Manmohan Singh. And while there is much substance to these accusations, the truth is seldom easy to face.
For a hack like me with a permanent address in cyberspace, I feel Im in the middle of a firestorm, with both sides sending me long, impassioned emails. Many Indian readers have proposed that Pakistan be nuked out of existence. Several Pakistani readers, apart from insisting on proof to back up the assertions of a Pakistani link with the Mumbai attack, have suggested that we should be prepared to go nuclear in the event of any Indian aggression.
Presumably, both these extreme views are an expression of patriotism. I have pointed out in my replies that nuclear war would spell doom for both countries, given their proximity. Prevailing wind directions would make a radioactive wasteland of vast tracts of land, rendering them uninhabitable for decades. And thats the problem with gung-ho patriotism: once it dominates the agenda, logic and reason go out the window.
In 1816, Stephen Decataur, a legendary American naval commander who led his countrys fight against the Barbary pirates, said in a toast to celebrate the victory: Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong! This expression of patriotism has often been misquoted as My country, right or wrong!
I personally reject this amoral, irrational stance for G.K. Chestertons view expressed in 1901: My country, right or wrong is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying My mother, drunk or sober.
Apart from religion, patriotism and misplaced national pride have probably been responsible for more mayhem and misery than any other cause in human history. And when patriotism and religion combine to fuel a conflict or a cause, the results are usually lethal. Ideologies like national socialism, fascism and communism have the attributes of religious dogma and fierce loyalty to a country, and have caused some of the most destructive wars of the last century.
And now, the spectre of Hindu nationalism and Islamic jihad haunt the foreseeable future. Of these, the latter is global, cutting across national boundaries as Islam does not recognise political borders. But this is an oversimplification: most Islamic movements are linked to national causes, and not to dreams of world conquest and conversion. The Lashkar-i-Taiba, for instance, is dedicated to Kashmirs liberation. Its goal in no way justifies its vile methods, but the context in which it is operating is to do with misguided patriotism. Its foot soldiers are motivated by a blind, unthinking belief in an extreme vision of Islam, while its leadership cynically exploits hostility between India and Pakistan to make a very good living for themselves.
As we have seen over the last fortnight or so, the media in both countries have jumped in predictable directions. On Indian TV channels, there has been a steady drumbeat of macho warmongering of the worst kind. This has been matched by jingoistic posturing in Pakistan by a battalion of retired generals and diplomats, as well as professional hacks. All this sound and fury over the airwaves has presented the world with the unedifying picture of two hormone-driven teenagers spoiling for a fight. As Samuel Johnson said so perceptively back in 1775: Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
It is natural to form a bond with ones birthplace. Most animals are territorial creatures, and Homo sapiens no exception. A country represents a shared lifelong experience, as well as a physical refuge in a hostile world. And with love for ones country comes national pride: most of us want our flag to fly high, our team to win, and our economy to thrive. Unfortunately, we Pakistanis have less and less to be proud of. Since the mid-1970s, the nation has been on a downward trajectory. Repeated bouts of military rule have devastated institutions, and have caused an upsurge in extremism and intolerance. Religious tensions and violence now threaten to break the country apart.
Meanwhile, India, while it has much to be proud of, is not without its own set of problems. Extreme social and economic inequalities apart, its secular foundation is under threat, and large areas are in a state of insurrection. Given these problems on both sides of the border, one would think a war was the last thing either country needed. And yet, judging from the outpouring over the media, there are large numbers of super-patriots in both countries who would like nothing better than another meaningless battle.
Fortunately, leaders in New Delhi and Islamabad have shown more maturity than has been the norm in relations between the two countries. But there were some familiar knee-jerk reactions in evidence: visas for Pakistani civil society activists were blocked for no apparent reason. These are the very people opposing the jihadis in Pakistan, and whom India should be supporting. There were accusations by Pakistan of Indian over-flights. And of course, sabre-rattling by spokesmen on both sides.
It is clear that this is a time for cool thinking and analysis, and not for macho posturing and heated rhetoric. But alas, much of our media has been so preoccupied with beating war drums that there has been little rational debate. With patriotism being substituted for common sense, there is hardly any space left for reason. In many ways, Pakistani media reaction has mirrored its Indian counterpart. But sadly, it often happens that we demonise the enemy to whip up domestic support. Except that in this case, it is not the official propaganda apparatus that has been so active, but private channels and newspapers.
For my part, I am happy to stand by Samuel Johnson when he wrote in his Introduction to the Political State of Great Britain: It is unpleasing to represent our affairs to our own disadvantage; yet it is necessary to show the evils which we desire to be removed.
You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race. George Bernard Shaw
Patriot games
By Irfan Husain
December 20, 2008
FEW things bring patriotism rushing to the surface as being under attack. For India, the Nov 26 assault on Mumbai was very real.
But for millions of Pakistanis, the accusation that their country was the base for this act of terrorism was an attack as well. For the last three weeks, they have endured lectures from everybody from Condi Rice to Gordon Brown to Manmohan Singh. And while there is much substance to these accusations, the truth is seldom easy to face.
For a hack like me with a permanent address in cyberspace, I feel Im in the middle of a firestorm, with both sides sending me long, impassioned emails. Many Indian readers have proposed that Pakistan be nuked out of existence. Several Pakistani readers, apart from insisting on proof to back up the assertions of a Pakistani link with the Mumbai attack, have suggested that we should be prepared to go nuclear in the event of any Indian aggression.
Presumably, both these extreme views are an expression of patriotism. I have pointed out in my replies that nuclear war would spell doom for both countries, given their proximity. Prevailing wind directions would make a radioactive wasteland of vast tracts of land, rendering them uninhabitable for decades. And thats the problem with gung-ho patriotism: once it dominates the agenda, logic and reason go out the window.
In 1816, Stephen Decataur, a legendary American naval commander who led his countrys fight against the Barbary pirates, said in a toast to celebrate the victory: Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong! This expression of patriotism has often been misquoted as My country, right or wrong!
I personally reject this amoral, irrational stance for G.K. Chestertons view expressed in 1901: My country, right or wrong is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying My mother, drunk or sober.
Apart from religion, patriotism and misplaced national pride have probably been responsible for more mayhem and misery than any other cause in human history. And when patriotism and religion combine to fuel a conflict or a cause, the results are usually lethal. Ideologies like national socialism, fascism and communism have the attributes of religious dogma and fierce loyalty to a country, and have caused some of the most destructive wars of the last century.
And now, the spectre of Hindu nationalism and Islamic jihad haunt the foreseeable future. Of these, the latter is global, cutting across national boundaries as Islam does not recognise political borders. But this is an oversimplification: most Islamic movements are linked to national causes, and not to dreams of world conquest and conversion. The Lashkar-i-Taiba, for instance, is dedicated to Kashmirs liberation. Its goal in no way justifies its vile methods, but the context in which it is operating is to do with misguided patriotism. Its foot soldiers are motivated by a blind, unthinking belief in an extreme vision of Islam, while its leadership cynically exploits hostility between India and Pakistan to make a very good living for themselves.
As we have seen over the last fortnight or so, the media in both countries have jumped in predictable directions. On Indian TV channels, there has been a steady drumbeat of macho warmongering of the worst kind. This has been matched by jingoistic posturing in Pakistan by a battalion of retired generals and diplomats, as well as professional hacks. All this sound and fury over the airwaves has presented the world with the unedifying picture of two hormone-driven teenagers spoiling for a fight. As Samuel Johnson said so perceptively back in 1775: Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
It is natural to form a bond with ones birthplace. Most animals are territorial creatures, and Homo sapiens no exception. A country represents a shared lifelong experience, as well as a physical refuge in a hostile world. And with love for ones country comes national pride: most of us want our flag to fly high, our team to win, and our economy to thrive. Unfortunately, we Pakistanis have less and less to be proud of. Since the mid-1970s, the nation has been on a downward trajectory. Repeated bouts of military rule have devastated institutions, and have caused an upsurge in extremism and intolerance. Religious tensions and violence now threaten to break the country apart.
Meanwhile, India, while it has much to be proud of, is not without its own set of problems. Extreme social and economic inequalities apart, its secular foundation is under threat, and large areas are in a state of insurrection. Given these problems on both sides of the border, one would think a war was the last thing either country needed. And yet, judging from the outpouring over the media, there are large numbers of super-patriots in both countries who would like nothing better than another meaningless battle.
Fortunately, leaders in New Delhi and Islamabad have shown more maturity than has been the norm in relations between the two countries. But there were some familiar knee-jerk reactions in evidence: visas for Pakistani civil society activists were blocked for no apparent reason. These are the very people opposing the jihadis in Pakistan, and whom India should be supporting. There were accusations by Pakistan of Indian over-flights. And of course, sabre-rattling by spokesmen on both sides.
It is clear that this is a time for cool thinking and analysis, and not for macho posturing and heated rhetoric. But alas, much of our media has been so preoccupied with beating war drums that there has been little rational debate. With patriotism being substituted for common sense, there is hardly any space left for reason. In many ways, Pakistani media reaction has mirrored its Indian counterpart. But sadly, it often happens that we demonise the enemy to whip up domestic support. Except that in this case, it is not the official propaganda apparatus that has been so active, but private channels and newspapers.
For my part, I am happy to stand by Samuel Johnson when he wrote in his Introduction to the Political State of Great Britain: It is unpleasing to represent our affairs to our own disadvantage; yet it is necessary to show the evils which we desire to be removed.
Awesome
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Grande Strategy: Saudi Tornados ID'ed Over Chaklala
Can anyone confirm if this photo posted by GS is a file photo or one where tornadoes were spotted?
We really should start moving more troops out of FATA and into this region, tribes aren't going to invade Lahore, India will.
`Indian military action imminent` - Sify.com
India sets 26th December deadline
Can anyone confirm if this photo posted by GS is a file photo or one where tornadoes were spotted?
We really should start moving more troops out of FATA and into this region, tribes aren't going to invade Lahore, India will.
`Indian military action imminent` - Sify.com
India sets 26th December deadline
Last edited:
AgNoStiC MuSliM
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Were they known PAF fighters or a non-Tornado unknown type?
ejaz007
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They were all known type PAF fighters and were flying at low level.
If these have indeed been loaned by Saudi air force I doubt these will be displayed at Karachi/Lahore or Islamabad. These will be flying high altitude sorties at lesser known place so that people can't recognize them.
If these have indeed been loaned by Saudi air force I doubt these will be displayed at Karachi/Lahore or Islamabad. These will be flying high altitude sorties at lesser known place so that people can't recognize them.
Kharian_Beast
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This is A-5 Fantan.
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