Replacing the F-16: Will Pakistan’s Top Fighter Squadron Transition to Chinese J-10Cs?

[siegecrossbow]

I am not sure as I too am not familiar with Pakistani sources, or his credibility. Interesting rumour about CAC. So would you say J-10s are happening?

What would you say about this

At the risk of looking like any idiot in the not so distant future… I’m at least 95 percent sure. Ideally Pakistan should go for F-16V but that is no longer on the table.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Pakistan should get J-10C and the related technologies.
But we need to improve our economy and education in order to get such valuable technologies.

 

[MH.Yang]

Sure not.
Why? because F16 bk 60 is fully operational for years when F35 is not.

F16 bk 60 is the last evoluted bird well studied by LM (with bk 70)

Because F35 technology is widely used in f16f subsystem. For example, tactical situation display, digital terrain elevation database, etc.

 

[MH.Yang]

Unless the contract itself that UAE signed specifies the restrictions on onward sale of said equipment. In fact, you are simply wrong. Consider that you admitted the following:



If China has acquired "property rights" to the Russian airframes/engines, why does it need Russian consent to sell them on to Pakistan?

J16 is a member of the Sukhoi family. According to the agreement between China and Russia, the sale of any Chinese made Sukhoi family member must be approved by Russia.

In 1998, when the UAE purchased the intellectual property rights of F16F, the contract stipulated that the UAE had the right to control the sale of F16F. According to the contract, the United States should have no right to prevent the UAE from selling F16F to Pakistan.

 

[VCheng]

In 1998, when the UAE purchased the intellectual property rights of F16F, the contract stipulated that the UAE had the right to control the sale of F16F.

Could you please provide the proof of the claim made in the statement in bold. Thanks.

 

[GriffinsRule]

J16 is a member of the Sukhoi family. According to the agreement between China and Russia, the sale of any Chinese made Sukhoi family member must be approved by Russia.

In 1998, when the UAE purchased the intellectual property rights of F16F, the contract stipulated that the UAE had the right to control the sale of F16F. According to the contract, the United States should have no right to prevent the UAE from selling F16F to Pakistan.

That's a good joke. US even decided against selling UAE more Block 60s not that long ago

 

[PakFactor]

J16 is a member of the Sukhoi family. According to the agreement between China and Russia, the sale of any Chinese made Sukhoi family member must be approved by Russia.

In 1998, when the UAE purchased the intellectual property rights of F16F, the contract stipulated that the UAE had the right to control the sale of F16F. According to the contract, the United States should have no right to prevent the UAE from selling F16F to Pakistan.

I doubt that, but even if it did U.S. controls all the supplies from the bolt to radar/suites.

 

[ummarz]

I am just no one in the sea full of knowers and insiders. Just an innocent someone.

lol, so diplomatic man

At the risk of looking like any idiot in the not so distant future… I’m at least 95 percent sure. Ideally Pakistan should go for F-16V but that is no longer on the table.

Cool stuff, I think the same as you on the F-16s. Ok lets see what happens. We must be getting a very specialized J-10 then, something a lot better than F-16 Block 52.

 

[MH.Yang]

Could you please provide the proof of the claim made in the statement in bold. Thanks.

It's a distant memory. I remember that the UAE paid an additional $3 billion for it. The $3 billion of 1990s! Of course, I don't have relevant information. Wait until I use Google.

That's a good joke. US even decided against selling UAE more Block 60s not that long ago

What? Can you provide news links?

 

[GriffinsRule]

It's a distant memory. I remember that the UAE paid an additional $3 billion for it. The $3 billion of 1990s! Of course, I don't have relevant information. Wait until I use Google.

What? Can you provide news links?

It was in the news a year or two ago. US Congress did not approve sales of more F-16s to UAE due to Yemen and even initially denied them approval for upgrading the jets to block 61.

I'll clarify here what you might be remembering from a while ago. UAE paid for research and development of some of the sub-systems that went into Block 60, and hence if the US was ever to sell that exact configuration to another country with those specific sub-systems, UAE would get a say in it and most likely some royalties.

That has never happened as they are the sole users of that aircraft model. That also does not mean UAE can decide who it can sell the F-16 Block 60s to, well for obvious reasons.

 

[VCheng]

It's a distant memory. I remember that the UAE paid an additional $3 billion for it. The $3 billion of 1990s! Of course, I don't have relevant information. Wait until I use Google.

I expected as much.

 

[MH.Yang]

It was in the news a year or two ago. US Congress did not approve sales of more F-16s to UAE due to Yemen and even initially denied them approval for upgrading the jets to block 61.

I'll clarify here what you might be remembering from a while ago. UAE paid for research and development of some of the sub-systems that went into Block 60, and hence if the US was ever to sell that exact configuration to another country with those specific sub-systems, UAE would get a say in it and most likely some royalties.

That has never happened as they are the sole users of that aircraft model. That also does not mean UAE can decide who it can sell the F-16 Block 60s to, well for obvious reasons.

If so, then Pakistan can give up buying any F16. I suggest Pakistan wait for J31.
Because J10C has no advantage over Rafale under the condition of early warning aircraft participating in the war, and j10c relies too much on China's combat system.

 

[FuturePAF]

If so, then Pakistan can give up buying any F16. I suggest Pakistan wait for J31.
Because J10C has no advantage over Rafale under the condition of early warning aircraft participating in the war, and j10c relies too much on China's combat system.

If the J-10 is acquired, it would only make sense as part of a long term plan to field them in sufficient numbers, at a minimum 4-5 squadrons (72-90 planes) IMHO, to get some economies of scale. Secondly, the J-10 can carry heavier weapons then the JF-17, out further, so its role would be best suited to support the navy or in EW. Thirdly, a use for the J-10 is to train a large enough pilot force on the type, so that in the event of war a large number of J-10s can be leased from China. If China could lease a further 72-90 planes in the event of war, it would make sense to get the J-10, similar to how Pakistan’s allies loaned planes during the 1965 and 1971 wars. The reason for this leasing strategy would be to shore up the PAF strength during and after a war, because the F-16s will certainly be sanctioned after a war.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

J-31/J-35 should replace the F-16s...

AZM will replace F16 eventually not J31/J35

The biggest weakness of gust is its small radar, so we should attack India's early warning aircraft first.
The most suitable for Pakistan Air Force should be J16 + PL2X. Of course, the sale of J16 requires the consent of the Russians, and the Indians will certainly try their best to block it. So J16 is unrealistic.
View attachment 775897
Excluding the Sukhoi family, let's consider alternatives.
F15EX is the best choice. Personally, I think it is the best 4G fighter. It is better than J16 and SU35s, other medium thrust twin engine fighters (for example, Rafale) are not even qualified to compare with it.
But we all know that it is not a realistic choice.
View attachment 775905
In fact, I think Pakistan can buy F16F from the UAE. Although it is also a kind F16, its property rights belong to the UAE. In 1998, the UAE paid US $3 billion to acquire the exclusive property right of F16F. According to the contract rules, the USA has no right to prevent F16F exports. F16F is very advanced, I can describe it this way: F16F is an F35 fighter disguised as F16.
View attachment 775904
However, a contract is only a contract. The USA has done too many things that do not comply with the contract, and I am also not sure whether Pakistan can buy F16E/F. And I don't think the PAF is willing to bet on the integrity of Americans, so many people believe that J10C is the only option.
J10&F16 are the only two kind high thrust single engine 4G fighters in the world. Other single engine 4G fighters, such as JF17, JAS39, etc., all are the medium thrust fighters. Because of engine performance limitations, they are not qualified to compare with the J10&F16.
Therefore, we usually use medium thrust twin engine fighter and J10&F16 for comparison, and the high thrust twin engine fighter is another heavyweight fighter. Of course, high thrust twin engine 4G fighters are likely to be more expensive than single engine 5G fighters.
Many people say that J10C is better than F16, which is a very rogue statement. There are too many batches of F16. The early stage F16 may not even be able to beat JF17. It is shameless not to talk about the comparison of block.
J10C is technically similar to F16b50/52. The thrust weight ratio and transonic maneuverability of J10C&F16b50/52 are excellent, and they are at the same level. The voyage and versatility of F16b50/52 are stronger, while the radar and missile range of J10C are better.
Although I am Chinese, I don't think J10C is suitable for too many countries.
J10C is specially customized for the combat system of the Chinese air force. It enhances radar and missiles, but weakens voyage and versatility. This means that it is an extreme air superiority fighter, so for most countries, it lacks cost performance.
Moreover, it needs the cooperation of the combat system of the Chinese air force, such as early warning aircraft, electronic combat system, air defense missiles, etc. Worst of all, China's combat system is not prepared to use J10C to attack the enemy's early warning aircraft. If Pakistan is ready to trust J10C+PL2X, Pakistan needs to redesign tactics and integrate its own combat system.
If PAF do that, this is a great reform for the combat system of PAF. I'm afraid it's not enough to just buy J10C. Pakistan are likely to see the arrival of China's electronic warfare system&air defense missiles.
Also, I wonder why Pakistan does not wait patiently for J31?
And I don't think the relationship between Pakistan and the USA has deteriorated so that the USA will interfere in the sales of F16F.
PAF and IAF, Americans should want to bet both sides at the same time.
The design life of F16 is 6000h, but many F16 in the USA have been used for more than 10000h. F16C/D has over the horizon air combat capability and high thrust engine. Even now, it is a very good 4G fighter. I don't think Pakistan will retire so soon.
View attachment 775898
So I think Pakistan will continue to use JF17 to replace F7 and Mirage, and then wait for the opportunity to buy F16F or J31.

@Zarvan @KaiserX @TOPGUN @Indos @iLION12345_1 @Polestar 2 @Imran Khan @omi @AZADPAKISTAN2009
@CrazyZ @GumNaam @313ghazi @dbc @Deino

J16 is out of question, because its design based on Su30MMK/MKK2, without Russian approval its not possible, J16 DESIGN IS A RUSSIAN INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY

The biggest weakness of gust is its small radar, so we should attack India's early warning aircraft first.
The most suitable for Pakistan Air Force should be J16 + PL2X. Of course, the sale of J16 requires the consent of the Russians, and the Indians will certainly try their best to block it. So J16 is unrealistic.
View attachment 775897
Excluding the Sukhoi family, let's consider alternatives.
F15EX is the best choice. Personally, I think it is the best 4G fighter. It is better than J16 and SU35s, other medium thrust twin engine fighters (for example, Rafale) are not even qualified to compare with it.
But we all know that it is not a realistic choice.
View attachment 775905
In fact, I think Pakistan can buy F16F from the UAE. Although it is also a kind F16, its property rights belong to the UAE. In 1998, the UAE paid US $3 billion to acquire the exclusive property right of F16F. According to the contract rules, the USA has no right to prevent F16F exports. F16F is very advanced, I can describe it this way: F16F is an F35 fighter disguised as F16.
View attachment 775904
However, a contract is only a contract. The USA has done too many things that do not comply with the contract, and I am also not sure whether Pakistan can buy F16E/F. And I don't think the PAF is willing to bet on the integrity of Americans, so many people believe that J10C is the only option.
J10&F16 are the only two kind high thrust single engine 4G fighters in the world. Other single engine 4G fighters, such as JF17, JAS39, etc., all are the medium thrust fighters. Because of engine performance limitations, they are not qualified to compare with the J10&F16.
Therefore, we usually use medium thrust twin engine fighter and J10&F16 for comparison, and the high thrust twin engine fighter is another heavyweight fighter. Of course, high thrust twin engine 4G fighters are likely to be more expensive than single engine 5G fighters.
Many people say that J10C is better than F16, which is a very rogue statement. There are too many batches of F16. The early stage F16 may not even be able to beat JF17. It is shameless not to talk about the comparison of block.
J10C is technically similar to F16b50/52. The thrust weight ratio and transonic maneuverability of J10C&F16b50/52 are excellent, and they are at the same level. The voyage and versatility of F16b50/52 are stronger, while the radar and missile range of J10C are better.
Although I am Chinese, I don't think J10C is suitable for too many countries.
J10C is specially customized for the combat system of the Chinese air force. It enhances radar and missiles, but weakens voyage and versatility. This means that it is an extreme air superiority fighter, so for most countries, it lacks cost performance.
Moreover, it needs the cooperation of the combat system of the Chinese air force, such as early warning aircraft, electronic combat system, air defense missiles, etc. Worst of all, China's combat system is not prepared to use J10C to attack the enemy's early warning aircraft. If Pakistan is ready to trust J10C+PL2X, Pakistan needs to redesign tactics and integrate its own combat system.
If PAF do that, this is a great reform for the combat system of PAF. I'm afraid it's not enough to just buy J10C. Pakistan are likely to see the arrival of China's electronic warfare system&air defense missiles.
Also, I wonder why Pakistan does not wait patiently for J31?
And I don't think the relationship between Pakistan and the USA has deteriorated so that the USA will interfere in the sales of F16F.
PAF and IAF, Americans should want to bet both sides at the same time.
The design life of F16 is 6000h, but many F16 in the USA have been used for more than 10000h. F16C/D has over the horizon air combat capability and high thrust engine. Even now, it is a very good 4G fighter. I don't think Pakistan will retire so soon.
View attachment 775898
So I think Pakistan will continue to use JF17 to replace F7 and Mirage, and then wait for the opportunity to buy F16F or J31.

@Zarvan @KaiserX @TOPGUN @Indos @iLION12345_1 @Polestar 2 @Imran Khan @omi @AZADPAKISTAN2009
@CrazyZ @GumNaam @313ghazi @dbc @Deino

MIG35 will be another good option

 

[Thorough Pro]

UAE paid in excess of 3 Billion US Dollars just of the research

It was in the news a year or two ago. US Congress did not approve sales of more F-16s to UAE due to Yemen and even initially denied them approval for upgrading the jets to block 61.

I'll clarify here what you might be remembering from a while ago. UAE paid for research and development of some of the sub-systems that went into Block 60, and hence if the US was ever to sell that exact configuration to another country with those specific sub-systems, UAE would get a say in it and most likely some royalties.

That has never happened as they are the sole users of that aircraft model. That also does not mean UAE can decide who it can sell the F-16 Block 60s to, well for obvious reasons.