Replacement of Pakistan Army's G-3 Rifles.

[TaimiKhan]

@ TaimiKhan
do you think that AK-47 will be a good option. its true that this caliber matches the preference of PA with 7.62mm rounds but its accuracy is something that can easily be termed as poor.
if at all, PA does finalize the AK series, they must go for variant with some accuracy.
i think that after a successful experience with H&K PA must look into more options from this supplier.
we do need a gun that can fire repeat automatic rounds and also single shots (as per requirement), short burst mode of 3 rounds will be a nice addition and bonus.

why don't POF try and develop something of there own that can meet all the PA requirement. they take Billions in funds and must at least put up a successful show in this regard.

regards!

The accuracy issue is due to the gun, not due to the bullet. AK47s are rough and tough & was designed to be made in bulk with low cost and simple design features and due to that reason its accuracy was sacrificed. But the new AK-100 series are good ones, they have have redesigned and made more lethal. 7.62*39mm is a very deadly round and in a good gun, it has good range and kill power.

I say,we team up with the Turks and design the HK417 series with the 7.62*39mm caliber, would be an awesome combination.

And as for your comments on POF and its inability to design something, well what to say, you yourself have hit the bulls eye, they should have developed something long ago, but when you run organization in such way, they become ineffective and wastage of resources.

 

[Jango]

Sir, there is something going on behind the scenes, but its slow. May be in few months time we hear or see something. For now the financial position is tight, so a change of assault weapon may not be on the priority list.

But something on the basis of HK417 may be on the table.

And yeah as per XYON, PA is preferring the 7.62*39mm caliber for the future. This weapon AK47 works in nearly every terrain of Pakistan without any major problems or the ones which we face in case of G3s.

The Turkish Mehmetkic could also be a good option. AK is not really wide used as the Chines Types.

 

[untitled]

Why cant we switch to the Chinese 5.8x42mm_DBP87 calibre ?

 

[TaimiKhan]

why cant we switch to the Chinese 5.8x42mm_DBP87 calibre ?

We have infrastructure to manufacture 7.62*39mm, 7.62*51mm, 5.56*45mm & 9mm caliber ammunition, bringing in another caliber round would be huge costs incurring, plus we have millions of ammo of the existing rounds.

Looking at our finances and resources, changing rifle and the round would be a huge task consisting of money and time.

7.62*39mm is a good round, all we need is a good gun.

 

[untitled]

Maybe we can re chamber the Chinese QBZ-95 for the 7.62 x 39 round. It is a new gun.

And it already available for the 5.56 x 45 round as the QBZ-97

 

[Drawn_Sword_of_God]

how reliable is the qbz 95?

 

[Arsalan]

The accuracy issue is due to the gun, not due to the bullet. AK47s are rough and tough & was designed to be made in bulk with low cost and simple design features and due to that reason its accuracy was sacrificed. But the new AK-100 series are good ones, they have have redesigned and made more lethal. 7.62*39mm is a very deadly round and in a good gun, it has good range and kill power.

I say,we team up with the Turks and design the HK417 series with the 7.62*39mm caliber, would be an awesome combination.
.

sorry, i think there is some confusion. i am not saying that 7.62 is more accurate!!
obviously it is all about the gun!
i also raised the same point that if PA is to go for AK series, they must go for some new guns, as you suggested, AK100. (AK-103)

And as for your comments on POF and its inability to design something, well what to say, you yourself have hit the bulls eye, they should have developed something long ago, but when you run organization in such way, they become ineffective and wastage of resources

hmm, actually i live next to POF. have studied all my school and college life in POF and have some classmates working there. i always get pi55ed off when i see them spending money on useless projects and what bothers more is that i know they are capable of doing a lot more good stuff. the POF eye, G3S and lots of other stuff is a good example. however, the thinking and approach need to be corrected.
last financial year, they spent roughly 3 million rupees on getting solar panels on there street light. take my words, it wont have effected a bit if 50% of them were removed at all, save energy, save 3 million and do something better![

We have infrastructure to manufacture 7.62*39mm, 7.62*51mm, 5.56*45mm & 9mm caliber ammunition, bringing in another caliber round would be huge costs incurring, plus we have millions of ammo of the existing rounds.

Looking at our finances and resources, changing rifle and the round would be a huge task consisting of money and time.

7.62*39mm is a good round, all we need is a good gun.

not only the change in caliber ask for huge spending in term of developing infra structure for ammo manufacturing but also the 5.8 x 42mm seriously lack fire power. something disclosed in Afghan war of US!

 

[TaimiKhan]

@arsalan,

not only the change in caliber ask for huge spending in term of developing infra structure for ammo manufacturing but also the 5.8 x 42mm seriously lack fire power. something disclosed in Afghan war of US!

US standard is 5.56*45mm, while the 5.8*42mm is the Chinese new standard caliber which has replaced their older 7.62*39mm caliber and Chinese claim that their 5.8*42mm round is superior to the NATO/US 5.56*45mm bullet.

 

[Arsalan]

@arsalan,

not only the change in caliber ask for huge spending in term of developing infra structure for ammo manufacturing but also the 5.8 x 42mm seriously lack fire power. something disclosed in Afghan war of US!

US standard is 5.56*45mm, while the 5.8*42mm is the Chinese new standard caliber which has replaced their older 7.62*39mm caliber and Chinese claim that their 5.8*42mm round is superior to the NATO/US 5.56*45mm bullet.

compare it with the G-3 7.62, and you will know what i am saying.
the momentum is the thing that these calibers lack when compared to the 7.62. the weight of this Chinese 5.8x42mm ammo is round about the same as the US 5.56 x 45mm so that wont make a huge difference.

i dont think it will be feasible for PA to change the caliber from the standard 7.62,if, the do go for a change of gun at all!

 

[wild peace]

compare it with the G-3 7.62, and you will know what i am saying.
the momentum is the thing that these calibers lack when compared to the 7.62. the weight of this Chinese 5.8x42mm ammo is round about the same as the US 5.56 x 45mm so that wont make a huge difference.

i dont think it will be feasible for PA to change the caliber from the standard 7.62,if, the do go for a change of gun at all!

I always in afavour of 7.62 caliber so please try the below idea for changing whole of our lot with out many structural changes ,

 

[DARKY]

We have infrastructure to manufacture 7.62*39mm, 7.62*51mm, 5.56*45mm & 9mm caliber ammunition, bringing in another caliber round would be huge costs incurring, plus we have millions of ammo of the existing rounds.

Looking at our finances and resources, changing rifle and the round would be a huge task consisting of money and time.

7.62*39mm is a good round, all we need is a good gun.

Those millions of ammo of existing rounds can be given to Policing agencies and Paramilitary seeing the current situation of internal security there in Pakistan those old rounds can find a good use.

A similar thing was done with Indian 7.62x51mm rounds.......the police uses them now.

---------- Post added at 03:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------

Maybe we can re chamber the Chinese QBZ-95 for the 7.62 x 39 round. It is a new gun.

And it already available for the 5.56 x 45 round as the QBZ-97

As reliable as M-16.

 

[TaimiKhan]

compare it with the G-3 7.62, and you will know what i am saying.
the momentum is the thing that these calibers lack when compared to the 7.62. the weight of this Chinese 5.8x42mm ammo is round about the same as the US 5.56 x 45mm so that wont make a huge difference.

i dont think it will be feasible for PA to change the caliber from the standard 7.62,if, the do go for a change of gun at all!

There is no doubt about the deadliness of the 7.62 NATO round, but it has its limitations also, due to the weight of the round, soldiers can not take as much ammo as a lighter weight ammo can be taken, then you have the recoil problem, very heavy recoil they generate which makes auto fire not positive yielding and in even single shot state,you can not keep firing constantly compared to how we see 5.56 fire in single shots.

And in CQB, the 7.62 is not liked,that is why you see lot of soldiers in tribal operations carrying and preferring the 7.62*39mm AK47s. They are lighter ammo, 30 round magazine, has the kill power, recoil is controllable and loved by everyone. Simple and deadly weapon AK47s and so are its round.

One of the reason tht we may see something in between the 5.56 NATO & 7.62 NATO. US Special Operations Command has already started looking at the 6.8*43mm Remington SPC round and may be the future US assault rifle is designed with this caliber in mind. It is lighter compared to 7.62 & deadly and recoil of the weapon is controllable.

6.8 mm Remington SPC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Adaptive Combat Rifle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So, i say, we get a more accurate firing weapon platform, something reliable, effective & simple, and mate it with the 7.62*39mm round or even we can look at something like the 6.8mm round too.

My choice is HK416/417 platform as it comes in many versions, you can have a CQB weapon, an assault rifle as well as a sniper rifle from one gun, mate it with a good round and you have a deadly weapon system.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Those millions of ammo of existing rounds can be given to Policing agencies and Paramilitary seeing the current situation of internal security there in Pakistan those old rounds can find a good use.

A similar thing was done with Indian 7.62x51mm rounds.......the police uses them now.

Its a very cost intensive adventure to change the weapon firing platform as well as the ammo for it.

Giving it to police or para military forces is not an easy task nor are they they gonna be able to fire all these rounds. Plus the commonality feature of having one round and one weapon platform would be lost, logistical nightmare it would create.

Simple answer is, mate something new with the 7.62*39mm round and make it a standard among the armed forces, para military forces as well a police, it will reduce costs and logistical problems.

 

[untitled]

I think we still have plenty of ammo left over for the M1 Garand rifle.

 

[Arsalan]

There is no doubt about the deadliness of the 7.62 NATO round, but it has its limitations also, due to the weight of the round, soldiers can not take as much ammo as a lighter weight ammo can be taken, then you have the recoil problem, very heavy recoil they generate which makes auto fire not positive yielding and in even single shot state,you can not keep firing constantly compared to how we see 5.56 fire in single shots.

And in CQB, the 7.62 is not liked,that is why you see lot of soldiers in tribal operations carrying and preferring the 7.62*39mm AK47s. They are lighter ammo, 30 round magazine, has the kill power, recoil is controllable and loved by everyone. Simple and deadly weapon AK47s and so are its round.

One of the reason tht we may see something in between the 5.56 NATO & 7.62 NATO. US Special Operations Command has already started looking at the 6.8*43mm Remington SPC round and may be the future US assault rifle is designed with this caliber in mind. It is lighter compared to 7.62 & deadly and recoil of the weapon is controllable.

6.8 mm Remington SPC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Adaptive Combat Rifle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So, i say, we get a more accurate firing weapon platform, something reliable, effective & simple, and mate it with the 7.62*39mm round or even we can look at something like the 6.8mm round too.

My choice is HK416/417 platform as it comes in many versions, you can have a CQB weapon, an assault rifle as well as a sniper rifle from one gun, mate it with a good round and you have a deadly weapon system.

well, you yourself have supported what i am stating!

despite all the pros and cons of the 7.62, it seems that it have positives then negatives. better punch, no upgradaion required etc
i guess we are both advocating the same platform the HK471 but with different statements . .