Replacement for Retired/Old PAF Jets | Food for Thought

[Ghazwa e Hind]

PAF is passing through a modernization phase currently according to current Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman. We are working to evolve JF-17 Thunder Project as it is a destiny of PAF & we are looking forward for many such projects in the future in order to make our airforce able to tackle any kind of challenges.

PAF retired 250 Chinese built F-6 jets in the beginning of 21st century which created a large gap in the numbers against our adversary. Those jets were technologically deprived but still the numbers gap created which needs to be fulfilled still after more than a decade.

Again Chinese built A-5s were retired with the induction of state of the art Thunders but now the next rising question is of the retirement of obsolete French built Mirages & Chinese F-7s. Though, both of these aircrafts are being upgraded by PAF but still they are not fit to serve in the modern battlefield. The sole purpose of their service is the presence of MIG-21s & other past generation jets in IAF.

PAF has to replace more than 300 jets in the near future for which JF-17 Thunders are being inducted. Other options are both from Asia & West. EF-2000, F-16V, Su-35 & J-11 are some options which need proper govt funding & diplomatic efforts to procure them for PAF. This article is a 'FOOD FOR THOUGHT' for PDF members to come & discuss it with their worthy opinions & analysis.

THREAD opened! now please give your opinions.

 

[simple Brain]

Pakistan certainly can use the material out of these planes for future needs and deliver or gift at least half of the engines to the engineering Universities where these engines can be used to gain enough knowledge in the field of Aeronautical Engineering.

 

[hkdas]

Chinese built A-5s were retired with the induction of state of the art Thunders but now the next rising question is of the retirement of obsolete French built Mirages & Chinese F-7s. Though, both of these aircrafts are being upgraded by PAF but still they are not fit to serve in the modern battlefield. The sole purpose of their service is the presence of MIG-21s & other past generation jets in IAF.

Mirages & Chinese F-7s are in service only to maintain pilot training and squadron strength. noting to do with presence of mig 21 in IAF. both mig 21 in iAF and mirages and f-7 are about to retair after getting modern jets.

 

[Ghazwa e Hind]

Pakistan certainly can use the material out of these planes for future needs and deliver or gift at least half of the engines to the engineering Universities where these engines can be used to gain enough knowledge in the field of Aeronautical Engineering.

Good idea! We should invest in our technical & professional education. It is the bestest of the investments.

 

[Lucky Breeze]

Yes we have to replace jets but we can't keep pace against our adversary bcz of economical and diplomatical situations, we need new missile defense system, so that attack on us become more expensive and difficult.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

If Pakistan Can Buy 8 F-16 From US with the Price tag of $70.8 Million per jet then why not we go for Su-35?? For Mirage Replacement? Will serve us better in Air superiority role and Naval wing more payload more range etc etc ...

2 Squads will do the Job for Both Air Force and Naval Wing (Su-35 and JF-17)

EF-2000 is very expensive
J-11 is for Exports? Will Russia allows China to Export it?
8 F-16 we are getting is Block 52+ so means US is not ready to give F-16 V although F-16 V is F-16 Block 52+ with Radar AESA

Just a thought

 

[volatile]

I have a question ,Like article mentioned that the ones we need to replace are old gen and less capability so we are replacing thunder on 1 to 1 basis ?

 

[Ghazwa e Hind]

If Pakistan Can Buy 8 F-16 From US with the Price tag of $70.8 Million per jet then why not we go for Su-35?? For Mirage Replacement? Will serve us better in Air superiority role and Naval wing more payload more range etc etc ...

2 Squads will do the Job for Both Air Force and Naval Wing (Su-35 and JF-17)

EF-2000 is very expensive
J-11 is for Exports? Will Russia allows China to Export it?
8 F-16 we are getting is Block 52+ so means US is not ready to give F-16 V although F-16 V is F-16 Block 52+ with Radar AESA

Just a thought

Brother, the price tag can be solved through some official press statements. Though, it is coming through assistance program but still many eyes are brewing on such high cost. Probably, many hidden deals are included in this package. Yes you are right that Su-35 is a good option to replace Mirages in Naval Air Arm with support from JF-17 Thunders. EF-2000 & J-11 can be delivered to PAF with negotiations. Nothing is impossible. We can order 6 Typhoons with additional short orders of 3 per year & quantity can be reached to 36+ in short orders. We can negotiate with Russians & Westerners & can offer them something worthy to offer us their precious things.

I have a question ,Like article mentioned that the ones we need to replace are old gen and less capability so we are replacing thunder on 1 to 1 basis ?

A-5s were replaced on 1 to 1 basis. I think Mirages also need same replacement order. And even Skybolts can also be replaced on 1 to 1 basis because we have to maintain the numbers gap. 100 Block-II & 100 Block-III Thunders can replace all F-7s & Mirages. The main point i discussed in the start is about those 250 F-6 aircrafts which were phased out in 2002. That created the actual number gap.

 

[volatile]

A-5s were replaced on 1 to 1 basis. I think Mirages also need same replacement order. And even Skybolts can also be replaced on 1 to 1 basis because we have to maintain the numbers gap. 100 Block-II & 100 Block-III Thunders can replace all F-7s & Mirages. The main point i discussed in the start is about those 250 F-6 aircrafts which were phased out in 2002. That created the actual number gap.

A5 Fighter specs VS Jf17

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (1,370.2 mph; 2,205.1 km/h)[9]
• Combat radius: 1,352 km (840 mi[6])[dubious – discuss]
• Ferry range: 3,482 km (1,880 NM)
• Service ceiling: 16,920 m (55,500 ft)
• Thrust/weight: 1.09 [147][148]

Armament

• Guns: 1× 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon or 1x 30 mm GSh-30-2
• Hardpoints: 7 in total (4 × under-wing, 2 × wing-tip, 1 × under-fuselage (Joint Hardpoint); pylon stations number 3, 4 and 5 are wet-plumb capable) with a capacity of 8,001 lb (3,629 kg)[154] for external fuel and ordnance

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 1.12 [14] (653 knots, 752 mph, 1210.23 km/h) / Mach 1.8 (1,370.2 mph; 2,205.1 km/h)
• Range: 2,000 km (1,100 NM, 1,200 mi (1,900 km)) / 1,352 km (840 mi[6]) buth with aerial refueling can be extended
• Combat radius: **On lo-lo-lo mission: 400 km (250 mi) with maximum payload / 3,482 km (1,880 NM)
  • On hi-lo-hi mission: 600 km (370 mi) (320 NM, 370 mi (600 km))
• Thrust/weight: 0.63 / 1.09

Armament

• Guns: 2× Norinco Type 23-2K 23 mm (0.906 in) cannon, 100 rounds per gun / 1× 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon or 1x 30 mm GSh-30-2
• Hardpoints: 10 (4× under-fuselage, 6× under-wing) with a capacity of 2,000 kg (4,400 lb) / 7 in total (4 × under-wing, 2 × wing-tip, 1 × under-fuselage (Joint Hardpoint) with addition of racks it can carry more

So still we replaced on 1 to 1 basis Reason also cost wise A5 were very less

 

[Ghazwa e Hind]

A5 Fighter specs VS Jf17

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (1,370.2 mph; 2,205.1 km/h)[9]
• Combat radius: 1,352 km (840 mi[6])[dubious – discuss]
• Ferry range: 3,482 km (1,880 NM)
• Service ceiling: 16,920 m (55,500 ft)
• Thrust/weight: 1.09 [147][148]

Armament

• Guns: 1× 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon or 1x 30 mm GSh-30-2
• Hardpoints: 7 in total (4 × under-wing, 2 × wing-tip, 1 × under-fuselage (Joint Hardpoint); pylon stations number 3, 4 and 5 are wet-plumb capable) with a capacity of 8,001 lb (3,629 kg)[154] for external fuel and ordnance

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 1.12 [14] (653 knots, 752 mph, 1210.23 km/h) / Mach 1.8 (1,370.2 mph; 2,205.1 km/h)
• Range: 2,000 km (1,100 NM, 1,200 mi (1,900 km)) / 1,352 km (840 mi[6]) buth with aerial refueling can be extended
• Combat radius: **On lo-lo-lo mission: 400 km (250 mi) with maximum payload / 3,482 km (1,880 NM)
  • On hi-lo-hi mission: 600 km (370 mi) (320 NM, 370 mi (600 km))
• Thrust/weight: 0.63 / 1.09

Armament

• Guns: 2× Norinco Type 23-2K 23 mm (0.906 in) cannon, 100 rounds per gun / 1× 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon or 1x 30 mm GSh-30-2
• Hardpoints: 10 (4× under-fuselage, 6× under-wing) with a capacity of 2,000 kg (4,400 lb) / 7 in total (4 × under-wing, 2 × wing-tip, 1 × under-fuselage (Joint Hardpoint) with addition of racks it can carry more

So still we replaced on 1 to 1 basis Reason also cost wise A5 were very less

A-5 was a ground attack aircraft designated in 26 Spiders & 16 Panthers squadrons. JF-17 Thunder is a Multi-Role Combat Aircraft but these squadrons specialize in ground attack role. JF-17 was a genuine option to replace A-5.

 

[volatile]

A-5 was a ground attack aircraft designated in 26 Spiders & 16 Panthers squadrons. JF-17 Thunder is a Multi-Role Combat Aircraft but these squadrons specialize in ground attack role. JF-17 was a genuine option to replace A-5.

What i mean was in capability terms thunder was way par than A5 then why we are replacing on 1 to 1 basis .

 

[Ghazwa e Hind]

What i mean was in capability terms thunder was way par than A5 then why we are replacing on 1 to 1 basis .

brother, actual reason is numbers gap. A-5 were obsolete & we had to retire all of them. So empty squadrons were refilled with large number of JF-17s. Both of these squadrons deserve to be equipped with this quantity of high-tech Thunders. Our intial plan was to procure 250 Thunders which is now only 150. Hope that a new platform will be inducted or a new Block of Thunder-III will be introduced soon.

 

[Paksanity]

What i mean was in capability terms thunder was way par than A5 then why we are replacing on 1 to 1 basis .

Because our neighbour is increasing its capability manifolds. I would not object if size of PAF expands by another 50 aircraft, given that Indian Navy has a large air arm.

 

[volatile]

brother, actual reason is numbers gap. A-5 were obsolete & we had to retire all of them. So empty squadrons were refilled with large number of JF-17s. Both of these squadrons deserve to be equipped with this quantity of high-tech Thunders. Our intial plan was to procure 250 Thunders which is now only 150. Hope that a new platform will be inducted or a new Block of Thunder-III will be introduced soon.

You seems to be right some thing tells me we are late around 10 years with thunder programe as it is almost last of its 4 th gen programe to be inducted i mean all legacy fighters have been evolved over a period of time from 3rd ++ gen to 4 Gen ++ .I some time feels disappointed as too much energy we have spent on thunder but the timing is way off as only way PAF will survive is through quality acquisition .All our enemy has almost par or if equal but with high numbers .Its time to concentrate on 5th Gen after Block 3 stop fooling our selves that it will take care of F35 or PAKFA

 

[Ghazwa e Hind]

Because our neighbour is increasing its capability manifolds. I would not object if size of PAF expands by another 50 aircraft, given that Indian Navy has a large air arm.

Let me do some calculations! 450 aircrafts is a good number for PAF. 100 F-16s. 200 JF-17s & 150 anonymous 4.5th & 5th generation aircrafts can settle the scores. We have to arrange funds for these procurements. Another decade of procurement will shape the real picture of modern PAF.

You seems to be right some thing tells me we are late around 10 years with thunder programe as it is almost last of its 4 th gen programe to be inducted i mean all legacy fighters have been evolved over a period of time from 3rd ++ gen to 4 Gen ++ .I some time feels disappointed as too much energy we have spent on thunder but the timing is way off as only way PAF will survive is through quality acquisition .All our enemy has almost par or if equal but with high numbers .Its time to concentrate on 5th Gen after Block 3 stop fooling our selves that it will take care of F35 or PAKFA

JF-17 Thunder is our destiny. We will keep it evolving according to our needs. We can start a new fighter aircraft probably a medium weight or a heavy weight. JF-17 can offer us AESA, IRST & all modern sub-systems which a 4.5th Gen jet can offer. We can make it a modern 4.5th Gen jet and once we induct Thunder with IRST, our US friends will also offer us F-16V kits for our Block-52s.

Heavyweight fighter is needed due to extended sea shelf & multiple sea ports. Navy should be provided with a sensible air cover. F-16 Block-52 is not a bad or obsolete aircraft. Its radar & avionics are close to any modern jet. F-16V will solve all questions raised on this potent fighter. JF-17 is still in evolution process & its a proven BVR platform which is going into AESA club very soon inshaAllah. Lets see what other 4.5th Gen jet PAF will procure or prepare for its inventory.