Removal of Prof shows Pakistan has forgotten Jinnah’s view on Ahmadis: YLH

[Pakistani E]

Absolutely,
On the subject of causing harm- starting with Chaudhry Zafarullah to Air Marshal Zafar Chaudhry, members of the community have caused harm to Pakistani institutions- sometimes due to personal ego as anyone else would.
But more importantly, their repeated overtures to the

Chaudhry Zafarullah’s goal is stated more to force the direction of the ML to use for activities leading to the return to Qadiyan- simply because the Quaid was unaware of his true motives doesn’t mean they did not show up a few years later and caused dischord amongst the newly formed state.
Most of his policies were at times blatantly in line with what the British wanted to happen. Some were not, take his speech at the UN against Israel.
Was this a personal vendetta or personel choice as opposed to other Qadiyanis?
Perhaps, but then why did the pledge to the British not stop with him?

Today there is heated debate on whether that influence still exists, with stories for and against. As to whether the location of most of the Qadiyan group leadership being in the UK has some weight to it but then so does the MQM.
Are we to assume that just as with the MQM there are those true to their citizenship as Pakistanis whilst others are not?
But is open support for India and Israel something to consider as anti-Pakistan? When the core religious leadership of the movement openly supports and interacts with those states known to be acting against Pakistan- is it a hyperbole to assume that that leadership does not have influence on every one of their followers?

They say images mean a lot, and this image which is from the rabwah site does.
https://www.rabwah.net/ahmadiyya-le...m-modi-israel-along-israeli-pm-netanyahu/amp/
View attachment 498398

Does this not mean the community has interests outside of Pakistan and its religious leadership can force its adherents throughout Pakistan to act against it?

Finally, does this sort of outside pledge not apply to other communities?
Very much so, after all we have a community that pledges to religious figures in Iran and goes for pilgrimage there in the thousands.. doesn’t that mean they too are liable for outside influences? Basic analogy would agree too.

There are religious institutions being run by people in thawbs abroad, does that not mean their graduates are possibly influenced by outside forces?
Yes

But the reason the Qadiyanis are a greater impact on the state is due to their greater economic impact and state influence due to guided directions to do so. Moreover, their primary funding source and current seat of power is a former empire still playing its self interest in the world which for the most part does not align with the good of Pakistan. Hence the greater worry of influence.

Great mate. I wish the likes of you were with Jinnah (rh) so you could have advised him about the dangerous influence of Qadianis and get them kicked out of Muslim League. With that, I wouldn't have to sit here and read retarded threads on PDF.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@Oscar

Oscar sb,

Perhaps, but the return to Qadiyan bit was likely just a wishful idea of establishing a groundhold for the religious pratice.

Lets hope that the Mirzais dont have any sinister designs and are just looking for friendlier relationships between India and Pak for religious tourism. Will be good for Indians and Pakistanis in general.

Regards

 

[SQ8]

Great mate. I wish the likes of you were with Jinnah (rh) so you could have advised him about the dangerous influence of Qadianis and get them kicked out of Muslim League. With that, I wouldn't have to sit here and read retarded threads on PDF.

We probably would have considering the impending sabotage certain members of the community brought.
That doesn’t reflect upon everyone of that community but as long as the core religious leadership is compromised- everyone potentially could be.

It’s not the only community with loyalties out of Pakistan, but is currently the only with ALL influences out of Pakistan. I am not stating you are a traitor, but if your allegiance were to your spiritual leadership versus the state who are still either outside of Pakistan, regularly connected to foriegn agencies and as can be seen documented in images having a stake in what is essentially a country not even recognized by Pakistan- there is a chance they could ask you something in the name of faith that would possibly be in the name of another country’s interest.
It is not confined to one community or group- the masquerading terrorist group Hizb-ut-Tahrir has its holds in the UK. Certain shia groups have theirs in Iran, other sunni ones in Saudia, Qatar or otherwise, the Ismaili Bohris have their center in India and so on.
What matters is how much a group leadership exerts their followers to act on behest of another power in the name of religion.
As offensive as it can be to someone of genuine faith and patriotism , it is the problem with all religious groups with powerful clergy as they will exert influence and cause issues.
A qadiyani spiritual guide in India can cause one of their members to make a decision in favor of Pakistan just as one from a UK based sunni “scholar” can compromise the country.

What matters is frequency of occurrence and influence centers.

@Oscar

Oscar sb,

Perhaps, but the return to Qadiyan bit was likely just a wishful idea of establishing a groundhold for the religious pratice.

Lets hope that the Mirzais dont have any sinister designs and are just looking for friendlier relationships between India and Pak for religious tourism. Will be good for Indians and Pakistanis in general.

Regards

They may not have designs, or they may. It is a similar issue as with taking and keeping wealth overseas. You are bound to be influenced by the external input.

Take an example of Israel and American Jews, despite being US Citizens they influence policy based on their loyalties to their religious center.

 

[Pakistani E]

We probably would have considering the impending sabotage certain members of the community brought.
That doesn’t reflect upon everyone of that community but as long as the core religious leadership is compromised- everyone potentially could be.

It’s not the only community with loyalties out of Pakistan, but is currently the only with ALL influences out of Pakistan. I am not stating you are a traitor, but if your allegiance were to your spiritual leadership versus the state who are still either outside of Pakistan, regularly connected to foriegn agencies and as can be seen documented in images having a stake in what is essentially a country not even recognized by Pakistan- there is a chance they could ask you something in the name of faith that would possibly be in the name of another country’s interest.
It is not confined to one community or group- the masquerading terrorist group Hizb-ut-Tahrir has its holds in the UK. Certain shia groups have theirs in Iran, other sunni ones in Saudia, Qatar or otherwise, the Ismaili Bohris have their center in India and so on.
What matters is how much a group leadership exerts their followers to act on behest of another power in the name of religion.
As offensive as it can be to someone of genuine faith and patriotism , it is the problem with all religious groups with powerful clergy as they will exert influence and cause issues.
A qadiyani spiritual guide in India can cause one of their members to make a decision in favor of Pakistan just as one from a UK based sunni “scholar” can compromise the country.

What matters is frequency of occurrence and influence centers.

You need to first explain what you mean by "Qadiani" leadership. It's not as arbitrary as you seem to think or make it out to be. There is a Majlis-i-Shura in place with representatives from Ahmadis in all countries in the world. This body is second only to the Khalifa. This body includes not only Indian Ahmadis, but also Pakistani Ahmadis. Any decision made by this body is done so with the consultation of all other members present and must be accepted by the Khalifa, who happens to be a Pakistani, just in case you forget that.

Why would we single out Pakistan? And for what exactly? Ahmadis had the numbers and the power to do whatever they wanted when we were declared Non Muslim. Or When Zia did his sheneagins. We are a religious community, taking power is not in our interest, otherwise several Africian countries would already be ruled by Ahmadis since the percentage of Ahmadis there are larger than Pakistan, if we follow your logic.

You say we pledge allegiance to the Khalifa. You seem to be using the same argument the Anti JFK lobbies used. Well, out of the Khalifas that are so malign in Pakistan, the Second Khalifa of the Jamaat helped Jinnah make Pakistan. He sent out hundreds of Ahmadi volunteers to fight in Kashmir.

The fourth Khalifa, is the one who stopped a civil war in Pakistan after Zia's decision to arrest him. You have no idea of the mood amongst Ahmadiyya Community in Pakistan and how much they had to be stopped by the Fourth Khalifa after Zia's plans for his arrest.

And the current one constantly asks to pray for Pakistan and wishes to come back to Pakistan without being hassled by the state or mullahs. Such a nefarious design isn't it?

And if owing allegiance to a religious scholar is such a threat, what about those Pakistani scholars who use their brain dead zombies to force law changes or issue threats to religious ministers? How come they are so placated? When have Ahmadis used threats of violence or arms to force any sort of change here? As citizens of Pakistan, don't Pakistani Ahmadis have the right in the way the country is run? Or is this only allowed for Sunnis and Shias (Mostly Sunnis)?

The fact that you make the assertion that Ahmadi leadership works for foreign intelligence agencies, just shows how much you know about what constitutes Ahmadi leadership. I am sorry, but I can't sit here and listen to someone who claims to know more about this topic than me. Part of my Family has been part of the community for over a hundred years and includes companions of the Founder. We have no interest in taking over countries or seizing power, you still need to explain why Pakistan is so special that we want to take power there? And why we made no such move even after the state going against us, and even when hot heads amongst us wanted to take revenge but instead were stopped.

It's the Pakistani state constantly going after Ahmadis for decades, even recently a high court judge wants Ahmadis to stop "dressing like Muslims", like what is wrong with these people? And even then, what has the reaction been of Ahmadis? Did we even set a single tire on fire?

Actually, I am glad that Atif Mian was removed from his position. That way, Ahmadis can't be blamed for anything that goes wrong with the economy.

Peace.

EDIT: I don't believe Ahmadis are angelic beings incapable of doing wrong, and no one is going to defend any Ahmadi that went against the state. However, bringing up this excuse to malign people like Atfi Mian just shows an immature and bigoted mindset.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@Sher Shah Awan

the Second Khalifa of the Jamaat sent out hundreds of Ahmadi volunteers to fight in Kashmir.

Interesting that you mention that. My friend Yasser Pai often mentions this - the Al Fukkeroon regiment it was called I believe. Sadly, dont hear of it very often these days, it is only Jaish, Lashkar, Hizb etc. Is that militia still active?

Regards

 

[SQ8]

You need to first explain what you mean by "Qadiani" leadership. It's not as arbitrary as you seem to think or make it out to be. There is a Majlis-i-Shura in place with representatives from Ahmadis in all countries in the world. This body is second only to the Khalifa. This body includes not only Indian Ahmadis, but also Pakistani Ahmadis. Any decision made by this body is done so with the consultation of all other members present and must be accepted by the Khalifa, who happens to be a Pakistani, just in case you forget that.

Why would we single out Pakistan? And for what exactly? Ahmadis had the numbers and the power to do whatever they wanted when we were declared Non Muslim. Or When Zia did his sheneagins. We are a religious community, taking power is not in our interest, otherwise several Africian countries would already be ruled by Ahmadis since the percentage of Ahmadis there are larger than Pakistan, if we follow your logic.

You say we pledge allegiance to the Khalifa. You seem to be using the same argument the Anti JFK lobbies used. Well, out of the Khalifas that are so malign in Pakistan, the Second Khalifa of the Jamaat helped Jinnah make Pakistan. He sent out hundreds of Ahmadi volunteers to fight in Kashmir.

The fourth Khalifa, is the one who stopped a civil war in Pakistan after Zia's decision to arrest him. You have no idea of the mood amongst Ahmadiyya Community in Pakistan and how much they had to be stopped by the Fourth Khalifa after Zia's plans for his arrest.

And the current one constantly asks to pray for Pakistan and wishes to come back to Pakistan without being hassled by the state or mullahs. Such a nefarious design isn't it?

And if owing allegiance to a religious scholar is such a threat, what about those Pakistani scholars who use their brain dead zombies to force law changes or issue threats to religious ministers? How come they are so placated? When have Ahmadis used threats of violence or arms to force any sort of change here? As citizens of Pakistan, don't Pakistani Ahmadis have the right in the way the country is run? Or is this only allowed for Sunnis and Shias (Mostly Sunnis)?

The fact that you make the assertion that Ahmadi leadership works for foreign intelligence agencies, just shows how much you know about what constitutes Ahmadi leadership. I am sorry, but I can't sit here and listen to someone who claims to know more about this topic than me. Part of my Family has been part of the community for over a hundred years and includes companions of the Founder. We have no interest in taking over countries or seizing power, you still need to explain why Pakistan is so special that we want to take power there? And why we made no such move even after the state going against us, and even when hot heads amongst us wanted to take revenge but instead were stopped.

It's the Pakistani state constantly going after Ahmadis for decades, even recently a high court judge wants Ahmadis to stop "dressing like Muslims", like what is wrong with these people? And even then, what has the reaction been of Ahmadis? Did we even set a single tire on fire?

Actually, I am glad that Atif Mian was removed from his position. That way, Ahmadis can't be blamed for anything that goes wrong with the economy.

Peace.

EDIT: I don't believe Ahmadis are angelic beings incapable of doing wrong, and no one is going to defend any Ahmadi that went against the state. However, bringing up this excuse to malign people like Atfi Mian just shows an immature and bigoted mindset.

Again, you are trying to bring up examples in your defense such as Mullahs and their ilk whom Ive already highlighted as being a major problem as well. Your community already occupies good positions within the government and business community so besides the core of the angst which is the finality of prophethood of Mohammad ibn Abdullah ibn Abdul Mutallib of the Quraysh the issue isn’t anything else other than possible compromised leadership.
Ive already mentioned that there are other groups too accused and open as well from both supposedly Sunni and Shia quarters who too have claimed prophethood and/or Mahdi status.
There is NOTHING wrong with the latter FYI and have had the same mentioned to the grandson of Mirza Ahmed who worked for the Hashoo group a few years ago.

There is no doubt on the excessive attitudes of the Mullah but at the same time there is an issue of the leadership and as such your arguments don’t hold weight upon my research. You may be closer to the people involved as you state and it is possible that you may be right and in that case the matter lies with Allah, but for now Ill agree to disagree.


If my firm and vociferous belief is that anyone who questions his finality and his status as the last messenger and prophet of god is not one I will chose to stand with in prayer nor allow propogation of belief under the same banner as me then bigotry it is. They can call themselves anything else but cannot and should not expect me to acknowledge them as muslims.

It doesn’t matter what person,group or nation this is. Its that clause, certain Shia groups claim Hazrat Ali as a prophet and I state the same regardless of how much Maula means to this Sunni. I have a sunni group claiming a saint to be a prophet and I call them the same.
So if I hear conflicting reports from the Qadiyan group regarding the status of Ghulam Mirza, then I apply the same clause.

 

[Pakistani E]

Again, you are trying to bring up examples in your defense such as Mullahs and their ilk whom Ive already highlighted as being a major problem as well. Your community already occupies good positions within the government and business community so besides the core of the angst which is the finality of prophethood of Mohammad ibn Abdullah ibn Abdul Mutallib of the Quraysh the issue isn’t anything else other than possible compromised leadership.
Ive already mentioned that there are other groups too accused and open as well from both supposedly Sunni and Shia quarters who too have claimed prophethood and/or Mahdi status.
There is NOTHING wrong with the latter FYI and have had the same mentioned to the grandson of Mirza Ahmed who worked for the Hashoo group a few years ago.

There is no doubt on the excessive attitudes of the Mullah but at the same time there is an issue of the leadership and as such your arguments don’t hold weight upon my research. You may be closer to the people involved as you state and it is possible that you may be right and in that case the matter lies with Allah, but for now Ill agree to disagree.


If my firm and vociferous belief is that anyone who questions his finality and his status as the last messenger and prophet of god is not one I will chose to stand with in prayer nor allow propogation of belief under the same banner as me then bigotry it is. They can call themselves anything else but cannot and should not expect me to acknowledge them as muslims.

It doesn’t matter what person,group or nation this is. Its that clause, certain Shia groups claim Hazrat Ali as a prophet and I state the same regardless of how much Maula means to this Sunni. I have a sunni group claiming a saint to be a prophet and I call them the same.
So if I hear conflicting reports from the Qadiyan group regarding the status of Ghulam Mirza, then I apply the same clause.

I honestly don't care about your opinion on a religious topic. I am grown enough to make my own decisions regarding that. And, at the end of the day, I will answer myself.

However, I am just not going to believe people who have no idea about how the Jamaat works but tell me all this grand conspiracy going on in the background targeted at Pakistan.

I don't care what a grandson of Mirza Sahib (as) says, a single person can make no decision. At the end of the day, let's be grown ups and accept that the real reason for all this fissure amongst non Ahmadi and Ahmadi Pakistanis is purely religious, and little to do with the concocted conspiracy theories invented by various people.

@Sher Shah Awan

the Second Khalifa of the Jamaat sent out hundreds of Ahmadi volunteers to fight in Kashmir.

Interesting that you mention that. My friend Yasser Pai often mentions this - the Al Fukkeroon regiment it was called I believe. Sadly, dont hear of it very often these days, it is only Jaish, Lashkar, Hizb etc. Is that militia still active?

Regards

Furqan Force/Furqan Battalion*

It was strictly under the command of Pakistan Army (Although trained/led by Ahmadi officers) and disbanded soon afterwards. It has no reason to exist, unless Pakistan state asks us to re-organise it.