Religions must be Chinese in orientation: official

[El Sidd]

I think it's not necessary to talk about other religions in this forum, e.g. Christian. This principle apply to all religions.

It should apply to all religions equally and justly. This can only go exact right or entirely wrong.
Vague statements do not help in information exchange.

The English speaking people have little understanding of what goes inside China and all we hear are policy statements. Policy statements should be clear.

 

[Hamza913]

Probably for the best, if you were to live somewhere with Sharia law.

Much better than funding the UK government's war in the Middle East every time you buy groceries or pay for your utilities. If as you say, the UK is bombing the Middle East and killing innocent Muslims, you should avoid funding them. If you live in the UK you are directly funding the UK government budget, including their military budget.

If the Middle East is your vision of a good future for yourself and your family, then I do wish you the best of luck. It's not what I would choose personally, but it's your choice.



Alright, can you answer this as objectively as possible.

Out of the hundreds/thousands of religions/beliefs/deities that exist in human societies, why do you think your one is correct and all the others are wrong? Any kind of empirical evidence to support one being correct over all the others?

Nobody rules by Sharia law, it's fruitless to try and find a place that does. The closest we have to it are the Gulf countries, and even those guys still harm other Muslims through their bombing campaigns.

I'm still firm in my decision to want to leave though, I'd rather live in Saudi Arabia than the UK since Saudi Arabia is at least more (if only slightly) aligned with me ideologically.

I'd leave at the first chance I get, but I currently can't, I'm stuck here. When I can leave, trust me, I will.

Ah finally, now we're asking the real questions!

I've personally attempted to find the truth, and I believe I've found it. I've tried as many options as possible, from Buddhism to Christianity. For me personally, the only two options I can genuinely believe in are Islam or Deism (basically the belief that there is a God, but he couldn't care less about us and that he won't send us to heaven or hell when we die).

I chose Islam because I struggle to believe a man who couldn't read or write, managed to create a book which even the best of poets couldn't (and still can't) imitate, a book that even non Muslim scholars of Arabic call the greatest piece of literary work every produced in the Arabic language.

Then, there's also the fact that he didn't just spontaneously come up with his revelation. At first, he couldn't believe it and was troubled, consulting his wife. It was only after a failed suicide attempt and some time that this 7th century Arabian man decided to start preaching.

Despite being persecuted, despite being offered numerous rewards such as wealth and women if just stopped preaching, he continued. Only a crazy or a truthful man would do that, and since the words coming out of this mouth were not crazy, I've decided to settle on truthful.

There's also the fact that this man was known as being one of the most truthful guys in his area, that he was born belonging to the most powerful tribe of the region, and that he was married to an extremely wealthy and desirable woman, whilst showing no interest in any other women in his area. He had no reason to randomly make up a religion, he had everything one could want. He was also known for being extremely charitable, which even further reduced the authenticity of the claim that he did it for wealth or power.

There are also things mentioned in the Quran and authentic Hadith which, in my opinion, couldn't have been known to a man in 7th century Arabia. You may Google this point to further follow up on it if you wish.

You should really refrain from repeating inaccuracies about the beliefs of others. You live in the UK, you can access many non psycho sufi ulema who will correct that misconception. It's not just you, everyone does it, it stems from molvi treating Islam as an episode of Yo Momma (terrible mtv show from the 90s) and not being respectable in how they present the view points of others.

Sufism in it's current form is forbidden, it involves praying to the dead and creating shrines, this is considered shirk in Islam.

Oh and btw the majority of Sufis consider Rasullulah (Peace Be Upon Him) to have been made of light.

If you wish to believe in this, that's fine, but you must bring Islamic evidence to support your claim. No Sufi has so far managed to this, from my experience anyway.

 

[El Sidd]

Guys stop flaming or there will be bans and infractions handed out. I recommend you edit your posts to avoid that.



In fact I personally consider political Christianity more dangerous, if you ask my opinion. Just see its history in China, for example the Taiping Rebellion.

But to be fair I will apply the same logic to all foreign religions, that have their political power base outside of China.

In the end, if religion can divorce itself from religious politics I will have no more concerns. If religion returns to being a private/individual matter without any foreign politics that would be the ideal situation.

Religion is a private matter in your country because of its definition in your constitution. Nobody has a problem with the Chinese constitution. I however can understand why organized religions not based in China can create a situation for them.

Democratic form of governments will always be religious in nature as long as the vote of the poor people and middle class people remain center of the politics in developing and developed countries.

 

[windywine]

I've personally attempted to find the truth, and I believe I've found it. I've tried as many options as possible, from Buddhism to Christianity.

Again, religion is nothing related to truth. Confucianism doesn't believe in God, and it uses the rule of nature or universe, called "天道“, instead of God

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Nobody rules by Sharia law, it's fruitless to try and find a place that does. The closest we have to it are the Gulf countries, and even those guys still harm other Muslims through their bombing campaigns.

I'm still firm in my decision to want to leave though, I'd rather live in Saudi Arabia than the UK since Saudi Arabia is at least more (if only slightly) aligned with me ideologically.

I'd leave at the first chance I get, but I currently can't, I'm stuck here. When I can leave, trust me, I will.

Ah finally, now we're asking the real questions!

I've personally attempted to find the truth, and I believe I've found it. I've tried as many options as possible, from Buddhism to Christianity. For me personally, the only two options I can genuinely believe in are Islam or Deism (basically the belief that there is a God, but he couldn't care less about us and that he won't send us to heaven or hell when we die).

I chose Islam because I struggle to believe a man who couldn't read or write, managed to create a book which even the best of poets couldn't (and still can't) imitate, a book that even non Muslim scholars of Arabic call the greatest piece of literary work every produced in the Arabic language.

Then, there's also the fact that he didn't just spontaneously come up with his revelation. At first, he couldn't believe it and was troubled, consulting his wife. It was only after a failed suicide attempt and some time that this 7th century Arabian man decided to start preaching.

Despite being persecuted, despite being offered numerous rewards such as wealth and women if just stopped preaching, he continued. Only a crazy or a truthful man would do that, and since the words coming out of this mouth were not crazy, I've decided to settle on truthful.

There's also the fact that this man was known as being one of the most truthful guys in his area, that he was born belonging to the most powerful tribe of the region, and that he was married to an extremely wealthy and desirable woman, whilst showing no interest in any other women in his area. He had no reason to randomly make up a religion, he had everything one could want. He was also known for being extremely charitable, which even further reduced the authenticity of the claim that he did it for wealth or power.

There are also things mentioned in the Quran and authentic Hadith which, in my opinion, couldn't have been known to a man in 7th century Arabia. You may Google this point to further follow up on it if you wish.

Thanks for that, it was very insightful.

In the end I don't have any problem with religion as long as it remains a private matter, and it is not used as a political weapon like is so prevalent in the world today. Where Governments, NGO's and interest groups try to spread their influence using religious politics.

What China values, is stability, because that is the main prerequisite for economic development. There are many millions of people in China who follow their religion in a private sense and don't cause political problems with it, I don't have any problem with that.

 

[El Sidd]

I suspect it is because Islam suffers in collateral damage. It has been used by some people in a way that makes another group of people feel threaten. It is always like that when a religion is used for political purpose or viewed as a political tool.


That is all I have been saying.

The political tool is the vote bank. The poor religious makes the largest chunk of it.

 

[武成王]

It should apply to all religions equally and justly. This can only go exact right or entirely wrong.
Vague statements do not help in information exchange.

The English speaking people have little understanding of what goes inside China and all we hear are policy statements. Policy statements should be clear.

True. There's a Chinese proverb: 百闻不如一见。(see the reality once is better than hear 100 times). It's not expensive to visit Xinjiang, you can travel there, not far, not expensive.

Simple logic, Chinese Muslim is important asset of China, because they're the bridge to connect China to Muslim world, a civilization of 1.6 billion, but they should NOT be leveraged by foreigners to fight against China.

 

[windywine]

Democratic form of governments will always be religious in nature

Not true. Confucianism always demand the government taking care of its poor people and considering the life level of people as the legitimate basis of the government.

 

[El Sidd]

True. There's a Chinese proverb: 百闻不如一见。(see the reality once is better than hear 100 times). It's not expensive to visit Xinjiang, you can travel there, not far, not expensive.

Simple logic, Chinese Muslim is important asset of China, because they're the bridge to connect China to Muslim world, a civilization of 1.6 billion, but they should NOT be leveraged by foreigners to fight against China.

The 2030 target is more or less a realistic one. The vision has Chinese Xingyang at its heart we know that and understand that.

Chinese Muslim are assets? We just had a debate on how Religions should not be used as political tool.

And thanks for the invite it is a beautiful place.

Not true. Confucianism always demand the government taking care of its poor people and considering the life level of people as the legitimate basis of the government.

Guilty conscience is a worthy opponent to many ideologies.

 

[313ghazi]

Sufism in it's current form is forbidden, it involves praying to the dead and creating shrines, this is considered shirk in Islam.

Oh and btw the majority of Sufis consider Rasullulah (Peace Be Upon Him) to have been made of light.

If you wish to believe in this, that's fine, but you must bring Islamic evidence to support your claim. No Sufi has so far managed to this, from my experience anyway.

Can you provide a single source from a barelvi or sufi scholar which claims the Prophet Muhammad pbuh was made of light? You won't find it because that is not the stance of the ahle sunnah. Reference to Noor is metaphorical, not physical. http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2011/04/07/haqiqat-al-muhammadiyya/

You need to be more open minded and not listen to information from secondary sources. No harm will come to you if you learn what other people think "from the horses mouth". I'll give you a personal example, for years a friend had me believe that deobandi's believe think God has a hand in the human form of a hand and has a throne that is like an actual chair. I then read online somewhere that the terms were not meant to be interpreted literally.

 

[rishav]

Because people should attempt to learn the truth.

i am sorry but no religion is the "truth" lol . bed time stories for kids at best .the so called "logic" in religion(be it any) can be easily demolished by any decently educated 21st century human . religion played it's part in the past , it gave a reason for humans to stick together, it was a part of evolution ,just like how we used to have gills , just like how we used to lay eggs ,just like how we used to have a tail ,however now it's obsolete and stupid and should be thrown in the dustbin where it belongs .

 

[windywine]

Guilty conscience is a worthy opponent to many ideologies.

Actually confucianism doesn't believe in the guilty conscience.

 

[El Sidd]

i am sorry but no religion is the "truth" lol . bed time stories for kids at best .the so called "logic" in religion(be it any) can be easily demolished by any decently educated 21st century human . religion played it's part in the past , it gave a reason for humans to stick together, it was a part of evolution ,just like how we used to have gills , just like how we used to lay eggs ,just like how we used to have a tail ,however now it's obsolete and stupid and should be thrown in the dustbin where it belongs .

Blue print of Pyramids -
What are Dreams -
How big is the universe -
Why people die -

Answer it without using religion. Religious discussions are not allowed on the forum as a reminder.

 

[Hamza913]

Can you provide a single source from a barelvi or sufi scholar which claims the Prophet Muhammad pbuh was made of light? You won't find it because that is not the stance of the ahle sunnah. Reference to Noor is metaphorical, not physical. http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2011/04/07/haqiqat-al-muhammadiyya/

You need to be more open minded and not listen to information from secondary sources. No harm will come to you if you learn what other people think "from the horses mouth". I'll give you a personal example, for years a friend had me believe that deobandi's believe think God has a hand in the human form of a hand and has a throne that is like an actual chair. I then read online somewhere that the terms were not meant to be interpreted literally.

I've asked Barelvis themselves, they believe this, it's even in the works of Ahmed Raza Khan. That's not my personal issue with the movement though.

My issue is the whole shrine culture and the belief that Rasulullah (Peace Be Upon Him) can witness what occurs throughout the world. I cannot find adequate evidence for these beliefs, in fact, I only find evidence which labels these practices as shirk.

Salafis like me do believe God has something which would be best described to us people as a hand. That doesn't make it a hand like yours or mine, but that's the best description for what it is. That's our view. The throne is also a literal throne, yes, but comes under a similar ruling to the hand.

When we meet God on the day of judgement, we will inshallah find out exactly what he meant.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

We just had a debate on how Religions should not be used as political tool.

Actually my point was not about the morality of using religion as a political tool (which I think is wrong personally), because morality has nothing to do with geopolitics.

The important thing here is that in China, Chinese interests should rule. Not foreign interests.

My issue is with the use of religion as a political tool in order to exert foreign political influence in China.

I just want religion to be what it should be, a private matter between an individual and their religion.