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Religion vs. Reason

As a non Pakistani, I have no say in this internal matter of Pakistan. But i can add my pov as a foreigner and i hope people find it useful from a foreigner.

@LeGenD @BHarwana
Islam and Quran in their core are political. Prophet Muhammed established an Islamic rule in Medina so people claiming Islam is not political, they are Lying.

Islam appreciates science more than anything else. Once our Prophet entered a mosque, he saw 2 Groups of people gathered together doing different things. The First group were discussing Scientific issues, the Second group were praying and doing Mustahabbat (non obligatory prayers). That holy Soul chose to be with the First group and spent his precious time with them. So people claiming Islam is opposing science are Lying again. Possibly they know nothing of Islam.

Problem is, Islam as a Complete religion can be the most dangrous weapon in the hands of an abuser. This guy Chaudry says that Bin Salman is the best leader hes ever seen. His interpretation of Islam and Quran will be most dangrous and a means for oppressing people.
 
Problem is, Islam as a Complete religion can be the most dangrous weapon in the hands of an abuser. This guy Chaudry says that Bin Salman is the best leader hes ever seen. His interpretation of Islam and Quran will be most dangrous and a means for oppressing people.
Thank you!

A friend of mine put it this way: if a good person has a knife he will prepare some delicious food with that. If a bad person has a knife he will try to rob elderly women. The same with Islam. Bad people don’t change if grow a bears or wear niqab. They just use it as disguise for an ego trip or other man made purposes. But nobody of our woke „friends“ has the honesty to double check it. This is just sad.
 
Yeah! Only Good woke States with man made laws allowing gay abortions are allowed to force their code on other people! See, we can play the game all day long. Discussing religion with atheists is like discussing color with the blind.

Having a State itself is a forceful act, the one is against woke people the other one gives you free abortions. That’s the nature of a state.
You believe in free markets, then why not a free society too from governmental regulations?
All that you argue is based upon strawmans. State clearly why blasphemy laws, apostate killing, anti-Ahmadiyya, laws barring minorites from holding office are required, why sharia courts for even forced conversions? Do away these and neither you have to bother likes of Hoodhbhoy nor other anti-religion people as you complain. Until then, others have the right to criticize these abominations.
 
You believe in free markets, then why not a free society too from governmental regulations?
Islam is based on self policing not an all powerful state that controls and regulates the length of your beard. But this doesn’t mean that there is no need for specific boundaries in public.


All that you argue is based upon strawmans.
You mentioned some means why Europe is rich and so on. I just said that 100 years ago - and the west was way ahead of us - the west didn’t had the same affirmative action for women or gay marriages permissible. Germany made marital rape illegal in 1998! A little bit more than 20 years ago. So this cannot be reason for their success.

Every country has boundaries for free speech. Try to deny the Holocaust in Germany and they will put you in jail and the media will portray as new hitler. Yeah, but I agree random accusations shouldn’t be executed by an angry mob. But I never endorsed Such behavior. ahmadiyyas are a non Muslim minority and should have the rights of a non Muslim majority. There are rules for being eligible for office. A Muslim country that was build on Islamic principles with an Hindu PM? Why? To get some „wow“ from the Brits? If you want to become the President of the US you must have held the citizenship by day the you were born! Arnold Schwarzenegger who served as Governor of California cannot become US president, even though he is American citizen!

No, you wouldn’t be happy even if eradicate all our problems. Your problem is ideological one and in that level we will never achieve common ground.
 
No, you wouldn’t be happy even if eradicate all our problems. Your problem is ideological one and in that level we will never achieve common ground.
That's your delusion, very few are against Islam ideologically, most simply want religion free politics. On point, You are making false analogies about holocaust and blasphemy, heck neither they kill the guy nor criticizing religion is comparable to being a mass-murderer's fan. We actually know that how much it's unlikely for a Hindu to become PM even after removing the bar but aren't non-Muslims at least as much as contributors as Muslims? If a non-Muslim can deliver better like your supposed free markets better than a Muslim then why shouldn't he get the chance?
So this cannot be reason for their success.
Free society and free markets are the reason, both work hand in hand. Too much regulations of any one of them stifles growth.
Islam is based on self policing not an all powerful state that controls and regulates the length of your beard. But this doesn’t mean that there is no need for specific boundaries in public.
Some standard boundaries will always be there like rape, murder etc - common codes but why state should venture into non-common things like apostasy? Heck, not even all sects agree on issues then why the state should pick one sect's fiqh and force it on everyone wether they like it or not?
 
That's your delusion, very few are against Islam ideologically, most simply want religion free politics.
It’s like saying English law should abolish its tradition that goes back to Magna Charta. Societies and values are shaped by the religion. Why should we abolish that? To please random foreigners? The leftists?

On point, You are making false analogies about holocaust and blasphemy, heck neither they kill the guy nor criticizing religion is comparable to being a mass-murderer's fan.
It is on the same level, because the state decides what genocides is allowed to deny and what not. The Germans also have a past in Namibia but in one paper they even avoided to use the term „Genocide“. But tell me, what will we achieve if someone like is allowed to insult the prophet (PBUH)? To please random foreigners? The leftists?


Free society and free markets are the reason, both work hand in hand. Too much regulations of any one of them stifles growth.
Agreed.


Heck, not even all sects agree on issues then why the state should pick one sect's fiqh and force it on everyone wether they like it or not?
Fiqh is mullah infested so as a critical thinker who is interested in Islam, you should try to find out what is the truth. Why are there reports that the prophet (PBUH) did nothing when he heared about an apostate? Maybe the other apostate was involved in anti state behavior afterwards? Maybe there is more context to the report about the blind Sahabi killing his slave for insulting the prophet (PBUH)?

The religion is simple. It’s a not a burden on people. I am just getting a little bit angry if you use these kind of language against my religion. We indeed have some common ground, only our conclusions differ. I say if oriole would follow the Islam the of the Madina republic we wouldn’t have any issues. But nowadays we have a cultural Islam filled with Hindu traditions and old superstition. If I am not here on PDF I am heavily engaged in fighting mullah madness. People here in Germany ask their Mullahs how to drink milk the „correct way“. This is beyond stupid!
 
1. have you other read this Book or only heard about it? Or are you an Islam expert like cliffy?
2. the Prophet (PBUH) Said bind Your camel and Trust in Allah. This is the Muslim way and not believing in magic.
1) Do you know what is Einstein's General Theory gf Relativity?
2) Do we have the UKLE to know how a simple computer works? It was thought out and developed by scientists from the Christian and Jewish societies. Do you not believe in the super functions of computers when you always type messages on it and send it via the Internet, also conceived and developed by not so God-dependent Christian and Jewish scientists?
 
For human society to advance, and persevere into eternity, we need science and research. Space travel. Ability to survive and set up colonies on other planets. Nuclear fusion for energy.
Feeding every starving guy out there, while noble, is inferior to this goal. But that's just my opinion.

Settlement of Mars and communism are not mutually exclusive. I myself want to somehow do something in the 2030s that will get me into a project like the now-sadly-ended project Mars One that will allow me to live on Mars.

This is a thread of mine from 2018 about an interview vid of Elon Musk where he says that any near-future Mars colony should be governed by Direct Democracy. Add socialism to it and it becomes similar to how Libya was governed until 2011. I am adding more to this mixture.

If you read the Mars trilogy books by Kim Stanley Robinson which are about a settlement on Mars ( " The first hundred and then more later" ) you will see a communist theme in them though not explicitly mentioned as such. Like free life extension procedure for the first hundred.

As for nuclear fusion, it seems to be a never-ending experiment though one of the developments has been this announcement from 2014 :
Lockheed Martin, the US government’s largest contractor, says it has made a technological breakthrough in nuclear fusion power. The breakthrough will apparently allow Lockheed to build a 100-megawatt “compact fusion reactor” (CFR) that can fit on the back of a truck within 10 years. The reduced size — just 10 feet by 7 feet — will allow Lockheed to “design, build, and test the CFR in less than a year.” Clean, limitless power — from a compact generator, no less! — could give us airplanes that can stay in the air forever, reliable power for developing nations, fresh water through cheap desalination, and much, much more. If Lockheed really has cracked fusion power generation, then almost every aspect of modern life could be in for a revolution.

As for what Lockheed’s breakthrough actually is, the defense contractor is (unsurprisingly) coy. The official statement simply says that, “Our compact fusion concept combines several alternative magnetic confinement approaches, taking the best parts of each, and offers a 90 percent size reduction over previous concepts.” The rather flashy website and video that Lockheed created for Compact Fusion offers a few more hints, but it’s hard to separate fact from we-hope-it-will-soon-be-fact. I think it’s fairly clear that Lockheed doesn’t yet have a working fusion reactor, but rather it has stumbled across a technique that it hopes will allow for compact fusion generator.
Towards the end of the full article it speaks of the reactor being used as a spacecraft engine. I don't know the current status of this project. Maybe available on Wikipedia. @Hamartia Antidote.

A basic level of free services are something I can get behind.
Anything more, will promote laziness, anti intellectualism in the masses.

I speak of a society of an evolved education system that will generate things like citizen scientists and educated farmers who will tend to automated Vertical Farms. The people will be expected to be learned to their capacity.

Further, a high performer should have a higher reward/motivation.

What do you mean by the underlined ?

But communists don’t have a sense for critical thinking or fairness.

That is incorrect. I am one and I have those. :cheers:

suppose one studies hard and becomes a Doctor and one who did awargi all his teenage, why should both get the same thing in the end?

1. There should be a society where teenage boys will not come to street corners on noisy motorcycles or scooters and stand around smoking cigarettes, chat wastefully and be a general nuisance. That will be because there will neither be cigarettes nor privately-owned personal transport vehicles.

2. It is socially practical and being more Natural that the adult age be set at 14. This way, males will be expected to be socially useful earlier than now. I don't know which fool decided in the modern world that adult age be set at 18. If there was some magical thing happening that at the stroke of age 18 a person becomes genius or sensible then the world would have become more advanced and sensible with no silly things like war.

Now tell me what do you mean by "awargi" given my proposed system ?

Do you think people will become Doctors or do other difficult things in their life when there's no reward for that?

Like I asked prashantazazel I ask you what you mean by "reward" ?

Thus it stifles growth (unless ruthless dictators force people to do those thing) and always lead to alternative routes for people who want extra things - black markets and second economies.

Given my proposal give me examples of the underlined.

It was in the 1980s that the Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev coined the term "Era of Stagnation" to describe the economic difficulties that developed when Leonid Brezhnev ruled the Soviet Union from 1964 to 1982.
So Gorbachev is the culprit who coined that term and we all know it was he who undid the USSR.

Supporters of Gorbachev have criticised Brezhnev, and the Brezhnev administration in general, for being too conservative and failing to change with the times
"Change with the times"... What did they mean by that ?

Despite this "Stagnation", from this source the GDP Rank of USSR in 1989 was 2nd and from this source the GDP Rank of India in 2019 was 5th. Imagine the GDP of the USSR had it been existent now. We can be very sure that even in 1989 there were no farmer suicides and deaths by hunger in the USSR as is happening in India in 2020. And the USSR had an advanced manned space program with even plans for Mars colonization.

A significant impact on the economy of the Soviet Union was the system of blat, a network of favors, which allowed people to procure all kinds of goods and services, operating within both official and second Soviet economies and continued to operate in post-Soviet Russia
The USSR was an experiment. My proposal will also be an experiment. Both aimed towards betterment and removal of socio-economic disparity and injustices. Let us see how your opposition to the quoted section above compares with the examples you will provide via critiquing my proposed system.

People here in Germany ask their Mullahs how to drink milk the „correct way“.

:lol:
 
Like I asked prashantazazel I ask you what you mean by "reward" ?
More hard work = better life standards.

1. There should be a society where teenage boys will not come to street corners on noisy motorcycles or scooters and stand around smoking cigarettes, chat wastefully and be a general nuisance. That will be because there will neither be cigarettes nor privately-owned personal transport vehicles.

2. It is socially practical and being more Natural that the adult age be set at 14. This way, males will be expected to be socially useful earlier than now. I don't know which fool decided in the modern world that adult age be set at 18. If there was some magical thing happening that at the stroke of age 18 a person becomes genius or sensible then the world would have become more advanced and sensible with no silly things like war.
Who will do the job of sweepers, construction workers, nurses i. e. Low class jobs then? All other things being same these people do less hard work hence end up lower end of the society. If there's no motivation for being a doctor rather than a nurse then there will be no doctors at all. It's simple nature.

Question : Will you spend more money for the same product of you can get it for less?

The USSR was an experiment. My proposal will also be an experiment.
World doesn't have time to run disastrous experiments which previously ended up in genocides and stagnation.
 
Who will do the job of sweepers, construction workers

Most of it can be done by mechanization and automation. There is already a sewerage cleaning robot called Bandicoot developed by a Kerala company. It is designed to end the practice of manual cleaning.

3D Printer-based construction of high-quality, earthquake-resistant two-storey comfortable houses ( 3D Printing of buildings is already being done in China ). And if you watch the 1982 film Blade Runner whose story is set in the future you will see a scene of a vehicle to clean the roads. The drivers of such vehicles will be drawn form the community who will be designated as part of their "work hard" life as you put if. About sewerage, why can't every house have an advanced septic tank which can decompose the waste output of the house and decompose it into water for the garden plants and basic fertilizer for the plants ? The septic tank can be scientifically designed for easy maintenance by the same type of specialists who maintain HVAC systems.

nurses i. e. Low class jobs then?

You should look at the number of students, especially women, who take up nursing courses. And your are saying nursing is a low-class

If there's no motivation for being a doctor rather than a nurse then there will be no doctors at all.

Do you think doctors now are only motivated to study medicine only for money ?

Question : Will you spend more money for the same product of you can get it for less?

Please elaborate this by example in my proposed system of free things and Social Credits.

World doesn't have time to run disastrous experiments which previously ended up in genocides and stagnation.

Why do you speak like Soumitra ?

300,000+ farmer suicides in India in a span of ten years not too distantly, I will call it a genocide. Who knows how many before and how many after that ? The Modi government stopped count recording of these suicides in 2015. And why is this genocide not spoken about at the UNO ? Because India is a "democratic" country.

So what does the world have time for ? Spending huge resources on militaries, nationalist wars and capitalist imperialist invasions of progressive countries ? Quite silly.

And where do you find potential for genocide in the proposal I make ?

More hard work = better life standards.

Yes, contribute more to society and you will be rewarded with more Credits in a month with which you can buy more goods and services.
 
And how does that doffer from money?

As example of contrast in current India, a sweeper whose work is actually useful earns substantially less than some middle-class MBA who does useless jobbing in some "futures" trading company or as manager in some NBFC like SKS Microfinance.
 
@jamahir I am feeling too lazy now dissect everything in your last and second last post, may reply to your posts later though. For now, I would say grab a book or two for economics, your ideas are too rudimentary.
 
@jamahir I am feeling too lazy now dissect everything in your last and second last post, may reply to your posts later though.

OK.

For now, I would say grab a book or two for economics, your ideas are too rudimentary.

You fail to see the point. I am proposing a small development upon past and present experiments in economics. Why should I grab a book on a type of economics I have been saying has led to socio-economic disparity ? I have proposed something. You are free to add to it. I will put together all additions and in time propose them to an appropriate communist movement in India.
 
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Haha abay yeh 5th grade insults rok aur mujhe yeh bata why does every Muslim country have such a bad women's rights record? Why the more Islamic a person, the more he/she wants to keep women under limits. Don't show your beauty, don't interact with strangers blah blah. Aurat hai ya 5 saal ka bacha?
Also I don't understand one thing. Muslim men drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, some go to brothel too. These are haram according to Islam. Muslim men also dress as they wish, sometimes this dress code also goes against islamic values.

But if the same thing is done by women then they get furious. This is what we call misogyny.

That is close to 18th century. 13 years short of it.

Or was I supposed to mention exact date, day, hours and seconds of the start of decline?

Which one?

And what did I write genius? Did I write against science when I specifically mentioned education in my post or am I to deduce that you are replying without reading?

We have had interest based finance throughout our history. Didn't work out as well as advertised though.

Obama the droner is any better? Or the state terror unleashed by Isreal, Myanmar or India is something that must be glorified because they are seculars? The number ofnon combatants killed by these states far outnumber those killed by groups like AQ. You are stepping in a morally grey area. That is an intellectual minefield. Instead of digressing, stick to the topic.

Another baloney.
Myanmar was never a secular country. It will always remain a Buddhist country. In the constitution Buddhism has been recognised and given special position.

Myanmar belongs to Buddhists whether you like it or not.
 

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