Religion and Dogma

[SQ8]

well,,,dear one can twist it any way he wants to,,,,but facts remain.
fear is the motivator alongwith supposed reward/punishment

Again, your own post works against you. Twisting facts to your view is what you just did. Also, there are very little "facts" in religion. There is something called belief. There is a belief that Hanuman lifted an entire mountain; no one can verify it as a fact. One can interpret it as literal or metaphorical based on personal belief, but there is no way to verify it as a fact.

Moreover, it was a fact back in the late 19th century that smoking helps clear out your lungs and sinuses. What is the fact today?

 

[halupridol]

Correct. However origins of psychological fear and religion are intertwined. The promise of future pain and mitigation of it in form of prayers essentially gave birth to earliest of pagan rituals like worshipping nature gods such as rain, trees, thunder, lightening, earth etc.

except probably not,,,,,pain/death must have overtaken religion n actually r interlinked

Again, your own post works against you. Twisting facts to your view is what you just did. Also, there are very little "facts" in religion. There is something called belief. There is a belief that Hanuman lifted an entire mountain; no one can verify it as a fact. One can interpret it as literal or metaphorical based on personal belief, but there is no way to verify it as a fact.

agreed,,,,but thn again beliefs r not facts,,,they r just tht mere beliefs.

Moreover, it was a fact back in the late 19th century that smoking helps clear out your lungs and sinuses. What is the fact today?

do u wanat to say tht in distant future thrs a possibility to prove tht hanuman actually lift moutains

 

[SQ8]

except probably not,,,,,pain/death must have overtaken religion n actually r interlinked


agreed,,,,but thn again beliefs r not facts,,,they r just tht mere beliefs.

do u wanat to say tht in distant future thrs a possibility to prove tht hanuman actually lift moutains

Two different things. You tried to pass off your views as facts which are intrinsically beliefs, hence the example of cigarettes.

And there are certain articles in belief which coincide with known facts but do not oppose them.
As I said, personal bias takes over when talking of religion; you would be wrong to a hilt to talk of factual ideas on what religion is and what it is not.

 

[halupridol]

Two different things. You tried to pass off your views as facts which are intrinsically beliefs, hence the example of cigarettes.

And there are certain articles in belief which coincide with known facts but do not oppose them.
As I said, personal bias takes over when talking of religion; you would be wrong to a hilt to talk of factual ideas on what religion is and what it is not.

my views??
its not me,,,,its actually u who is trying to pass of ur beliefs as facts.
let me make it simple,,,,i am saying morality is regulated by fear(fear of god here),,,,u say its not(saying its love)

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Humanity & Ethics are one of the basic concepts of Religion. If one compares any religion to each other these concepts will be there. The issue is how they are intended to be used provided the followers remain loyal.

In the world there are basically two main concepts on which religions are based.
Man made and God sent.

Man made religions are those that can evolve over time. We have seen over centuries how these evolved and would continue to evolve for the future generations.

God sent can not evolve and they have to be followed as they are received. Though these religions do leave up to its followers to interpret according to their personal beliefs. Hence a person would be judged on the piety.

 

[SQ8]

my views??
its not me,,,,its actually u who is trying to pass of ur beliefs as facts.
let me make it simple,,,,i am saying morality is regulated by fear(fear of god here),,,,u say its not(saying its love)

I have not passed off anything. You are infact letting your emotions based on your personal beliefs regarding religion taint your objectivity in reading my statements.
You stated it is motivated by fear of god, I said its motivated by both(fear and/or want of reward or love) depending upon your personality and core faith. These are my personal beliefs, whether these are a fact or not is impossible to verify by humans. Your personal beliefs are that religion is built on fear, yet you are being dishonest in trying to pass off your personal beliefs as facts.

 

[halupridol]

I have not passed off anything. You are infact letting your emotions based on your personal beliefs regarding religion taint your objectivity in reading my statements.
You stated it is motivated by fear of god, I said its motivated by both(fear and/or want of reward or love) depending upon your personality and core faith. These are my personal beliefs, whether these are a fact or not is impossible to verify by humans. Your personal beliefs are that religion is built on fear, yet you are being dishonest in trying to pass off your personal beliefs as facts.

oscar ,,,u seem to think of urself too highly,,,,,not bad.

well,,,dear one can twist it any way he wants to,,,,but facts remain.
fear is the motivator alongwith supposed reward/punishment

this is what i said,,,,reward,punishment,love,,,,all play thr role,,,,,but bottomline is fear,,,the mother of morality

 

[SQ8]

oscar ,,,u seem to think of urself too highly,,,,,not bad.

this is what i said,,,,reward,punishment,love,,,,all play thr role,,,,,but bottomline is fear,,,the mother of morality

Inserting smiley's does not make an argument more logical or good. It only makes it look immature. I'll reiterate, you believe that you are setting the bottomline as a fact, while I am stating that you saying its the bottomline is your belief.

 

[halupridol]

Inserting smiley's does not make an argument more logical or good. It only makes it look immature. I'll reiterate, you believe that you are setting the bottomline as a fact, while I am stating that you saying its the bottomline is your belief.

umm,,,yaa,,,ok u won the argument,,lets leave it

 

[Spectre]

umm,,,yaa,,,ok u won the argument,,lets leave it

Grace is good.

To reiterate fear and love are equally powerful motivators however in case of religion I agree with you that fear plays disproportionately larger role for large majority of adherents.

Anyway most of the modern religions are transactional in practice so motivations are often materialistic and of nature perhaps never even dreamt of by the founders. difficult to characterise them neatly into reward/punishment columns.

The newer concept in religion which i actively encourage is belief in "personal god". This removes undue power from clergy. I believe this is what led to great schism in Christianity - have to read up on it. Among Hinduism the later day reforms and particularly the Bhakti movement played a major role in curtailing the power wielded by Brahmins. That along with translation of religious texts from Sanskrits leading to personalization of God.

I do wish @Joe Shearer was online. Would be glad for a perspective of a certified athiest

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Oscar @WebMaster @waz @WAJsal

Please close this thread if the discussion on the captioned topic is against forum policies. I am skirting the line here but hope the debate is constructive and add somes perspective to muddled thought process many of us have.

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Introduction

We have all been appalled by the acts of terrorism, murder, rape, genocide etc committed in the name of religion. No religion is untouched by the crimes committed by their practitioners in it's name. We have had Paedophile priests, Islamic terrorists and Hindu genocidal mobs in times we live in.

All this perhaps creates a situation that the it is not the religion which defines it's followers but often followers defining their religion. So the goodness of Islam is warped by a fraction of misguided adherents, plurality and inclusivism of Hinduism lay forgotten because of it's demagogic leaders and Kindness of Christianity is undone by zealousness and cruelty of it's practitioners.

The good is so overshadowed by evil that we forget about the likes of Gandhis and Mother Teresa both @Devout practitioners. We forget that the noblest deeds, the most virtuous efforts in Human History have also been made in the name of religion.

At this stage one is forced to ask - What is it about religion that it inspires such cruelty as well as such kindness? How can the same fount of religion can be used to justify terrorism as well as altruism

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Dogma - A critique

All religions at their core are Dogmatic. For those who don't understand what it means - Simplest example is that the Dogma is something you can't deny. For Islam it would the singularity of God, for Hindus it could be belief in reincarnation, for Christians it could be virginity of Mary.

The above are benign examples of Dogma but religion also contains certain dogmatic cores which brings one group in direct conflict with the other. A true Adherent of Islam can perhaps be in conflict with Ahmedis, A Vaishanvite can be in conflict with Shaivite, a Protestant with Catholic. These are just examples of internal conflicts. External ones have much greater scope.

It is the dogma which demagogues use to brainwash the terrorists like ISIS and Al-Quaeda - implying that it is word of the God that you wage Jihad on Non Muslims, It is the word of the God that you kill Shias. In Hinduism it was the dogma which led to centuries long oppression and exploitation of Dalits. Some Christians still use Christianity to justify slavery and racism.

Dogma based approach to religion is not about bettering oneself but following of rules and scriptures. It instills among the adherents the need to impose their version of truths on others. It creates an exclusivist mentality. It creates the need to prove others wrong to prove oneself right. In short Dogma may at sometimes lie in direct conflict with morality

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Conclusion

The time has come to reform the static parts of the religious morality as the world cannot sustain itself much longer with all modern tools of destruction at hand which will be used if dogmatic beliefs of supremacy of one set of principles over others is to persist.

I am not a religious scholar - and the purpose of this thread is to not to deliver a lecture. PDF is fortunate enough to bring together people from all faiths and nationalities to a common platform. So I hope we can discuss if we can introduce enough flexibilities and leeway in the way religion is preached and practiced and may be take steps towards removing dogmatic principles which brings us in conflict.

Towards this end I will pose certain questions without malice for any religion

- Do you believe that your religion allows for other faiths to be practiced without censure and with tolerance

- Do you believe religion should be static or it should reform itself to adapt with modern sensibilities

- Does the required reform clash with founding principles of your religion

- If reforms are possible what would it entail and how do you suggest one begin

- How does one stop the misuse of religious dogma by terrorists to justify their action

@Joe Shearer @niaz @Levina @MarkusS @Chinese-Dragon

Sadly, this discussion is 'orthogonal' to my own faith and belief. But let me say, in broad generalities, that I sympathise with the predicament of the religious, even though it is a trap of their own making, a situation of their own choice. Let me hope that they find their own ways out, their own guide from Calvary to the City on the Mount.

Grace is good.

To reiterate fear and love are equally powerful motivators however in case of religion I agree with you that fear plays disproportionately larger role for large majority of adherents.

Anyway most of the modern religions are transactional in practice so motivations are often materialistic and of nature perhaps never even dreamt of by the founders. difficult to characterise them neatly into reward/punishment columns.

The newer concept in religion which i actively encourage is belief in "personal god". This removes undue power from clergy. I believe this is what led to great schism in Christianity - have to read up on it. Among Hinduism the later day reforms and particularly the Bhakti movement played a major role in curtailing the power wielded by Brahmins. That along with translation of religious texts from Sanskrits leading to personalization of God.

I do wish @Joe Shearer was online. Would be glad for a perspective of a certified athiest

Perhaps later. I am travelling back to Hyderabad today. The crisis seems to be over.

 

[dadeechi]

Religion brings morality into play

So can we conclude that all atheists are immoral.

@Joe Shearer

 

[Joe Shearer]

So can we conclude that all atheists are immoral.

@Joe Shearer

You may conclude what you wish.

 

[dadeechi]

One question. Do you believe Mother Teresa held no dogmatic religious views?

She attained sainthood after the second miracle.

 

[war&peace]

Again, your own post works against you. Twisting facts to your view is what you just did. Also, there are very little "facts" in religion. There is something called belief. There is a belief that Hanuman lifted an entire mountain; no one can verify it as a fact. One can interpret it as literal or metaphorical based on personal belief, but there is no way to verify it as a fact.

Moreover, it was a fact back in the late 19th century that smoking helps clear out your lungs and sinuses. What is the fact today?

@Oscar the problem is when someone is too deep into his own religion (set of beliefs)..after some time it becomes so ingrained into the sub-conscious that those turn into tangible realities. The person loses the ability to distinguish between the facts and the beliefs