Reliance on China to Hurt Pakistan in Future

[ajpirzada]

why is it that ppl keep on targetin pak-china friendship by comin up with their self oriented theories? espacially indians are hell bent upon convincin pakistanis that chinease are not their true friends. y dont u guys mind ur own business?

chinease have helped us wheneva needed. and that is all wat i care about.
US has dumped us wheneva we needed them. and that is all wat i care about.
and if we are of any benefit to chinease in return then im happy that it is so.

u helpin each other is wat strengthens ur relationship. can i say that children only take care of their parents coz they have no other place to go to? and parents take care of their children so that they have someone with them during their old age?

most of our defence industry was established with the help of chinease. we are making our own tanks and fighter jets today. apart from this our military exports are more than that of indians. chinease have never shown reluctance when it comes to TOT. and i guess u all and also chinease know that TOT makes u more independent and less dependent.

and these recent riots in china are in no way a sign of chinease dislikin of muslims. chinease by all means have best relations with all muslim countries. a lot better than that of western countries and india as well. so if u guys think that u can use this recent violance in china to fill our ears against chinease then u r wrong. keep having this wet dream. ur bed is the only place where it will become a reality.

 

[Peshwa]

[quote)

[/COLOR]Besides, pakistan is of extreme importance to china for it provide china the shortest cut to the indian ocean without passing the strait of Malacca and the islands of andaman and nicoba which are under control of indian powers.
and wise versa, china provide pakistan a reliable route to the vast land of east asia.[/quote]

2 Things Sir.....Pakistan (Gwadar) provides access to the Arabian Sea, NOT the Indian Ocean......Im not sure about the logistics of which is the best route for China as majority of Tier 1 Chinese cities are in the east....so Im not sure how the cost of transportation is brought down by using Gwadar.....Maybe someone else can help us with this question...

Also...Sir, we are looking at a scenario where India and China are at peace...so from that perspective, does Gwadar still make sense? And then wouldnt Chahabar port in Iran and the Zaranj Highway connecting Iran and Afghanistan, which was built by India be a better route than going through Pakistan???

 

[Peshwa]

i'm not saying they'll directly intervieen if in the future both nation are equally important to china they it will be hard to support just one, in short it depends who is worth more to china,but of course they want to keep as many friends as possible. if pakistan is still more important i think the "help" will be in term of political and maybe some suppy line type of help. but yes i dont not see direct confrontation as a route for them

I Agree with your first point

"The point of my post was....that if India and China on paper are not enemies, then it will become really hard for China to arm Pakistan with top technology the way it is doing now...especially when it is directed solely towards India......"

well i dont see a problem with it, so long as the exports are
1. not substantial enough to change the balance of power,
2. it will probably not be on such nice terms, like soft loans
3. think of the US it arms both sides.
4. if the countries are friendly by that point then india could buy chinese too(they have more money than pakistan anyways)

1) Makes sense....Even Russia is providing engines for JF-17\
2) Definitely, and this is what I mean that the gravy train will be over....Pakistan is strapped for Cash, ir things get worse, arms procurement will be a nightmare for Pakistan...especially with its not so rosy reputation with the west
3) US has recently started arming both, but so far, mainly Pakistan....but you can see the trend how US is giving a soft corner to India with talks of Aegis, Hornets...etc etc....Pakistan will never be offered this...combination of Purchasing power, political clout and reputation.....same attitude could be from China if hostilities resolve
4) Exactly...If India starts buying Chinese weapons with pure hard cash, then Pakistan's options are severly limited....basically Indians will have a counter for all Pakistani firepower!!

 

[ajpirzada]

[quote)

[/COLOR]Besides, pakistan is of extreme importance to china for it provide china the shortest cut to the indian ocean without passing the strait of Malacca and the islands of andaman and nicoba which are under control of indian powers.
and wise versa, china provide pakistan a reliable route to the vast land of east asia.

2 Things Sir.....Pakistan (Gwadar) provides access to the Arabian Sea, NOT the Indian Ocean......Im not sure about the logistics of which is the best route for China as majority of Tier 1 Chinese cities are in the east....so Im not sure how the cost of transportation is brought down by using Gwadar.....Maybe someone else can help us with this question...

Also...Sir, we are looking at a scenario where India and China are at peace...so from that perspective, does Gwadar still make sense? And then wouldnt Chahabar port in Iran and the Zaranj Highway connecting Iran and Afghanistan, which was built by India be a better route than going through Pakistan???[/QUOTE]

main purpose of gwadar was not to contain india but to link western china with the global economy. it will provide the shortest route to industries in western china. secondly incase of war times china can make sure, using gwadar, that no one disrupts her oil supplies which pass through this region.
about chahbar through afghanistan. question is does afghanistan has enough infrastructure to support such a deal. secondly gwadar still remains the shortest route to china.

 

[Peshwa]

@insas and Peshwa,
My point was how you people can think that China will accept an equal rival in the region? This will always remain a root cause for India and China rivalry and Pakistan will always be important because it satisfies many Chinese interests.

It is purely your thought that for China Pakistan is not important and infact it is your wish. Pakistan is a huge market for Chinese weapons plus if you talk in terms of trade and commerce I think China will consider those regions who are a big market for Chinese goods and wealthy, some how wather you accept it or not the purchasing power of a Pakistani on average is more than an Indian.

Oil from Middle East, Defense and trade balance are the three most important factors due to which Pakistan and China will always remain close. China will always keep that in mind that USA is funding India to counter China. Is this a small thing that you think Chinese will neglect and revise their relations with India?

Chine will never want a equal power in region hence due to this the tension will always be there between them.

Well I have to repeat myself here again, but its not in China's hand to stop India's growth.....in fact the Chinese can do very little....so whether they like it, accept it or not.....India will be a major power...
A good example of a similar situation is the USA and China.....Can the USA do anything about China's growth?? The rivalry is there....but they will just have to make the best of it.....basiclly increase trade etc to mutually benefit each other....Thats it!!

No one said that Pakistan is not important for China.....but only NOW......We are discussing a hypothetical scenario where Indian-Chinese hostilities have ended....Please respond keeping that in mind!

What does the purchasing power of an avg Pakistani have to do with the trade between countries?? Population of Pakistan is nothing compared to India.....Even if only 25% of our population usese Chinese goods, we beat you in trade....so your point is moot here....
India has been using protectionism to prevent Chinese goods from entering Indian markets..eg recently toys from China were banned. If there is no enemity....trade will be opened up to....thats the best way for 2 former enemies to gain trusts....eg.EU.

There is no way Pakistan can be economically more beneficial to China than India....
Also....you're telling me that if we have no issues with China, that we wouldnt want to buy their arms? Pakistan works on soft loans....we work with cash....who do you think China will prefer?? Relationships are complicated Sir.....incentives define relationships!!!

My knowledge on Oil aquisition is limited.....so Ill refrain from commenting on this portion....maybe someone else can help

Salman...I would just like you to think about the scenario, I feel you're analyzing the situation based on the current view of things!

 

[salman nedian]

Well I have to repeat myself here again, but its not in China's hand to stop India's growth.....in fact the Chinese can do very little....so whether they like it, accept it or not.....India will be a major power...
A good example of a similar situation is the USA and China.....Can the USA do anything about China's growth?? The rivalry is there....but they will just have to make the best of it.....basiclly increase trade etc to mutually benefit each other....Thats it!!

No one said that Pakistan is not important for China.....but only NOW......We are discussing a hypothetical scenario where Indian-Chinese hostilities have ended....Please respond keeping that in mind!

What does the purchasing power of an avg Pakistani have to do with the trade between countries?? Population of Pakistan is nothing compared to India.....Even if only 25% of our population usese Chinese goods, we beat you in trade....so your point is moot here....
India has been using protectionism to prevent Chinese goods from entering Indian markets..eg recently toys from China were banned. If there is no enemity....trade will be opened up to....thats the best way for 2 former enemies to gain trusts....eg.EU.

There is no way Pakistan can be economically more beneficial to China than India....
Also....you're telling me that if we have no issues with China, that we wouldnt want to buy their arms? Pakistan works on soft loans....we work with cash....who do you think China will prefer?? Relationships are complicated Sir.....incentives define relationships!!!

My knowledge on Oil aquisition is limited.....so Ill refrain from commenting on this portion....maybe someone else can help

Salman...I would just like you to think about the scenario, I feel you're analyzing the situation based on the current view of things!

Pakistan doesn’t only have good relations with China but also we are inreasing cooperations with certain European countries. Even if China simplifies their relationship with India even than it wont hurt Pakistan too much. Pakistan and China relationship is based on ‘Transfer of technology’ which surely will help us to progress.

If a hypothetical scenario is considered than in future many things are possible. Pakistan is still a big country and after some time we will grow more so any country will not be able to avoid Pakistan in future also. If China-India relationship get better even than I think Pakistan’s relationship will be there with China. USSR now enjoys good relationship with China and whats happening now? We still too enjoys good relationship with China and one of the benefits we are seeing that the engine of JF-17 is Russian made.

Pakistan will also be a major power in future Sir, so dont worry about us we will be ok.

 

[muse]

Mukhtar holds ‘productive’ meetings with Chinese leadership

* China vows to enhance military ties with Pakistan

BEIJING: Defence Minister Ahmed Mukhtar said on Friday that he had very productive meetings with the Chinese leadership regarding the capacity building of Pakistan’s armed forces.

"We have embarked on the capacity building of our armed forces to fight the menace of terrorism and militancy more effectively in the country," Mukhtar told APP.

"I had extremely productive meetings with the Chinese vice-president and defence minister and they agreed to examine our defence needs," he said.

After meeting Mukhtar on Thursday, Chinese Vice President Xi Jinping said his country would work with Pakistan to strengthen the Pak-China strategic partnership. Xi hailed the traditionally friendly ties that have been maintained by the two countries since diplomatic relations were first established in 1951.

"Despite all the changes on the international front and in our domestic situations, the cooperation between Pakistan and China has remained unchanged and has always moved forward," Xi told Mukhtar. He said the Pak-China friendship bore testament to China's successful foreign policy and to the harmonious co-existence between two countries with different social systems.

Vow: Meanwhile, China on Thursday vowed to enhance military ties with Pakistan during Mukhtar's visit to Beijing. "China values its relationship with Pakistan and is engaged in boosting bilateral ties from a strategic and long-term perspective," said Chinese Defence Minister Liang Guanglie during a meeting with Mukhtar.

"China appreciates Pakistan's firm support for issues that are of core interest to China like Taiwan, Tibet and human rights," Liang said.

Liang hoped the two militaries would deepen exchanges and cooperation. Mukhtar told Liang that Pakistan would always stand with China against any attempt to sabotage China's sovereignty and territorial integrity. “Pakistan is grateful for China's assistance," he added. app

 

[Hyde]

Pakistan doesn’t only have good relations with China but also we are inreasing cooperations with certain European countries. Even if China simplifies their relationship with India even than it wont hurt Pakistan too much. Pakistan and China relationship is based on ‘Transfer of technology’ which surely will help us to progress.

If a hypothetical scenario is considered than in future many things are possible. Pakistan is still a big country and after some time we will grow more so any country will not be able to avoid Pakistan in future also. If China-India relationship get better even than I think Pakistan’s relationship will be there with China. USSR now enjoys good relationship with China and whats happening now? We still too enjoys good relationship with China and one of the benefits we are seeing that the engine of JF-17 is Russian made.

Pakistan will also be a major power in future Sir, so dont worry about us we will be ok.

thats right

i agree with the above post and just want to add few lines:

USA is not a Mother of India who will always want to see the prosperity in India

USA has its own interests to equip India with the latest technology and make them stand against China.

At the same time USA would not want to see Indians daring at USA, so they would probably want to see a balance of power between China, India and Pakistan. If by chance India takes over China, there should be some kind of fear on Indians in the name of Pakistan to make sure they do not dare aganist USA.

Since American's are unable to control the chinese inreasing influence what they have decided is to support Indians to compete with China but they would probably not want to see India's becoming a super power either, so they will equip and support Pakistan as long as these immense situation is there

So if China becomes friend with India, suddenly you will notice a change of policies from Americans and the West and they will have soft policies with Pakistan and try to equip and Modernise us instead of India so we can keep in in-check always and if necassary to fight against them

They don't want one of the 3 countries to lead the World but all fighting against each other at some level either it is India vs China or Pakistan vs India, both of these clashes will benefit the west and if Pak vs India war takes place that means Chinese will not be 1 step further but 2, always against India. So they probably want good relationships with India so they can compete with China and nothing is going to happen with Pakistan anyway Insha'Allah. The day India improves relationships with China, The second day west will be equipping Pakistan and Iran