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Reform agriculture marketing systems to address farm distress

GeraltofRivia

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8 min read Updated: 19 July 2018
Sudipto Mundle

The recent increase in the minimum support prices (MSP) for major kharif crops has reignited the debate about food price policy. Some analysts believe that the increase has been excessive, that it will push up inflation, both directly and also indirectly via the fiscal burden of higher subsidies. Others maintain that the increase is not enough, that the government has not delivered on its promise of announcing MSPs that are 50% over cost, as had been recommended by the National Commission on Farmers (Swaminathan Commission). Who is right and who is wrong? Why do we need an agricultural price policy at all? And, most importantly, what does it all mean for the hapless farmer?

The question of why we need a food price policy is the one most easily answered. Foodgrains are basic necessities. Any sharp increase in their prices can be extremely stressful, especially for low income and poor households, leading in turn to heightened political tension. Conversely, any sharp drop in crop prices can cause widespread distress among the millions of small farmers for whom the proceeds of their marketed produce is the main source of their livelihood. Hence, the policy of maintaining relatively stable and reasonable prices has a long history going back to the Great Bengal Famine of 1943. The present food policy regime—consisting of the Food Corporation of India (FCI), which procures rice and wheat, along with some state agencies, the Commission on Agricultural Costs and Prices (CACP), which recommends procurement prices, and the public distribution system (PDS), which distributes foodgrains and a few other essential items at subsidized prices—was established following two consecutive drought years that led to severe food shortages in the mid- 1960s.

Next, are the recently announced kharif procurement prices too high or too low? For an answer based on principles rather than rhetoric it is necessary go into some rather arcane issues about different ways of costing agricultural production. The government has in principle adopted the policy of fixing procurement prices at least 50% over what CACP calls cost A2 + FL. A2 includes the actual or imputed cost of all purchased or own inputs such as seeds, fertilizers, manure, bullock or machine labour + actual rent on leased in land + actual interest on working capital. FL is the imputed value of family labour. Thus A2 + FL excludes the imputed value of owned fixed capital, such as farm machinery, and the rental value of own land. Adding these components would give us cost C2, the cost on which the Swaminathan Commission had recommended a 50% markup for procurement prices.

In a recent article (“The Price Is Right", The Indian Express, 6 July), Ramesh Chand has argued that using C2 rather than A2 + FL is illogical. In fact, the reverse is true. Imputed values are the opportunity costs of both inputs and factors of production, such as land, labour or capital, meaning the costs that the farmer would have incurred if s/he had acquired these from the market or what s/he would have earned if she had supplied these owned resources to the market. It defies logic as to why the imputed value of own inputs and own family labour should be included in the costing (A2 + FL) but not the rental value of own land or interest on own capital. Further, as Prabhat Patnaik has argued earlier this week (“Has There Been An MSP Hike For Kharif Crops?"), the cost of production computations are an average across farms. So if the imputed rental value of owned land is not included in the reckoning then the average rental value factored into the costing would be less than the actual rental value paid by those who have leased their land, the large bulk of whom are marginal or landless farmers.

However, Chand mentions that the imputed value of family labour and imputed rental value of own land amounts to about 40% of C2. Assuming he is right, A2 amounts to about 60% of C2 and much of the difference would in fact consist of FL, the imputed value of family labour. Hence, a 50% MSP markup over (A2 +FL) would in fact imply a significant markup over even C2. Chand estimates that the recently announced kharif MSPs amount to markups over C2, ranging from 10% to 53%, depending on the crop. But, as Patnaik has pointed out, the largest price increases have been announced in the case of coarse cereals like jowar, bajra and ragi, which account for less than 5% of the kharif food grain output.

All that being said, it seems to me that the debate over different concepts of cost of production is largely an academic matter. Cost of production is only one of several considerations factored into the determination of MSPs, such as the estimated demand-supply balance, global prices, etc. Besides, announcing an MSP means nothing unless it is supported by public procurement at the announced MSP. Among food crops, FCI only procures wheat and rice along with some state agencies and the National Agricultural Cooperative Marketing Federation of India (Nafed) has now started procuring pulses. Moreover, my reading is that, as with many other fiscal and administered pricing policies, the actual determination of MSPs is driven by a “business as usual" practice of incremental increases in line with past trend combined with the political need for “look good" optics.

Take, for example, the MSP for the common variety of paddy, the largest item of kharif procurement. During the five-year period 2009-10 to 2013-14, the MSP for common paddy increased by 31% or at an annual rate of 6.2%. For the next four years, 2014-15 to 2017-18, it was raised at an average annual rate of only 3.5%. The current increase by ₹ 200, or nearly 13%, looks good politically and also marks a reversal towards trend. Including this the average annual MSP increase during the five-year period, 2014-15 to 2018-19, works out to 5.8%, just short of the 6.2% registered during the previous five years. However, comparing these nominal rates of MSP increase with the average CPI inflation rates of 6% for the period 2008-09 to 2013-14 and 4.5% for the period 2013-14 to 2017-18, it turns out that the MSP for common paddy was more or less constant in real terms during the earlier period while it has risen modestly during the latter, thanks mainly to the latest MSP increase. Balancing the compulsions of prevailing distress among farmers and foodgrain availability at reasonable prices, I would conclude that the increase is neither too high nor too low but just about right,

Finally, and most importantly, what does it mean for distressed farmers? MSPs are only one among a range of policies that impact farm revenues and costs. Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) uses two comprehensive indices of the net impact of all such policies on agricultural producers and consumers, respectively called the producer support estimate (PSE) and consumer support estimate (CSE). Reporting on an application of these indicators for India, based on very detailed commodity-specific exercises in all major states, Ashok Gulati and Carmell Cahill claim that Indian producers have suffered a net negative impact amounting to 14% of farm receipts on average for the period 2000-01 to 2016-17 (“Resolving The Farmer-Consumer Binary", The Indian Express, 9 July). This is in sharp contrast with the positive producer support of over 19% in the European Union, about 15% in China and 9% in the US.

This bias against producers would in fact be much more severe for the small, marginal and landless farmers who account for 80% of rural households and face multiple price and non-price risks on top of the non-viability of their tiny plots of land as I had explained in my column last year (“Agrarian Crisis: The Challenge Of A Small Farmer Economy", Mint, 21 July). Their circumstances also force them to sell their small lots of marketable surplus at prices way below the announced MSPs while having to buy their inputs at high prices. Nevertheless, I feel that the OECD approach of framing the policy impact question as support for producers versus support for consumers, counterposing the interest of farmers to that of consumers as if in a zero-sum game, is a false binary, at least in India.

This construct excludes a third key player, namely the class of traders who intermediate between producers and consumers. In the case of rice and wheat, large oligopolistic wholesale traders are able to buy the produce at rock-bottom post-harvest prices from small producers then sell them to FCI at much higher MSPs. For other commodities, cartels of these large traders who control the Agricultural Produce Marketing Committees (APMCs) again compel the small producers to sell at low prices then jack up their own selling price. Gulati’s earlier work, which I also reported in my July 2017 article, indicates that poor farmers may typically get as little as 25% of the prices that consumers finally pay for their produce.

Clearly, reform of agricultural marketing systems to squeeze if not altogether eliminate the 300% traders’ markup could provide far more remunerative prices for distressed farmers, freeing them from the clutches of money lenders, while at the same time making farm produce available to consumers at affordable prices. However, distressed farmers need not depend on the government to recover their viability. The Amul Dairy Cooperative is an outstanding example of how farmers empowered themselves through cooperation. There are more recent success stories in the Kudumbashree programme in Kerala, the Society for Elimination of Rural Poverty in Andhra, and embryonic cases in other states of such cooperation led by women’s self-help groups, initially for mobilizing credit and later for other activities. These examples point to the power of aggregation and collective action in activities ranging from marketing and purchasing of inputs and machinery to land pooling, water management, organic agriculture, dairy, fishery and even some non-farm activities.
https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/Il...arketing-systems-to-address-farm-distres.html
 
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Thanks for posting @GeraltofRivia

Clearly, reform of agricultural marketing systems to squeeze if not altogether eliminate the 300% traders’ markup could provide far more remunerative prices for distressed farmers, freeing them from the clutches of money lenders, while at the same time making farm produce available to consumers at affordable prices.

This is exactly what I have been on about on other threads. There is too little actual free market opportunity for farmers...this is the single biggest cause of depressed prices....esp as their production increases.

The govt causes the problem in first place, just so it can intervene (downstream of the problem) in another way to "fix/address" it. Similar to how minimum wage legislation is unnecessary if the govt didnt heavily intervene in the free market in all kinds of ways (that create all kinds of price distortions) in the first place.
 
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Thanks for posting @GeraltofRivia



This is exactly what I have been on about on other threads. There is too little actual free market opportunity for farmers...this is the single biggest cause of depressed prices....esp as their production increases.

The govt causes the problem in first place, just so it can intervene (downstream of the problem) in another way to "fix/address" it. Similar to how minimum wage legislation is unnecessary if the govt didnt heavily intervene in the free market in all kinds of ways (that create all kinds of price distortions) in the first place.
I don’t know the government should be blamed the most here. The most articles I read on this topic seems to suggest that the cartel of the agri traders are the ones that distort the market by suppressing the price paid to farmers and jack up the price when selling to the procurement agency. The author quoted another research that “poor farmers may typically get as little as 25% of the prices that consumers finally pay for their produce”. Consumers are clearly not getting the best deal they could and farmers are not getting paid either.

I guess the government should play more in this area rather than less and remove traders from the market. Alternatively they can assist the farmers to form cooperative so that they can get better deals or selling directly the agency.

I am not a huge fan of price support either but I can understand the motivation. Agriculture/rural market in the developing countries is typically not a efficient market where supply meets demand and the golden price is found. It tends to be divided by local vested interest (eg traders, agents) into millions of segments where they can maximize their bargaining power.

It is not going to be a easy job to remove the trader cartel as they would be well entrenched and well armed (lobby groups etc). That being said, they have a place in the system by performing facilitating roles in the process. It is just the excessive power and margin distorted the market.

I think the digitalization we have seen in another form will really help to improve the market efficiency. A electronic trading por auction platform like Alibaba or GlobalDairyTrade (for dairy products, run by Fonterra) can help connect the farmers with procurement agencies or bulk buyers and bypass the middle man or at least weaken their position significantly. Naturally it will need a more thinking around the design of the market place to tailor to the specific situation but the concept should be the same.
 
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The most articles I read on this topic seems to suggest that the cartel of the agri traders are the ones that distort the market by suppressing the price paid to farmers and jack up the price when selling to the procurement agency

Friend, why you think these cartels exist? Who backs and gains from them etc?

They are a natural consequence of the Mandi system pretty much forced on farmers. When you have enforcement of limited buy/sell avenues (i.e market distortion), the cartels inevitably appear. Just like black market appears when you have rationing (another govt intervention in the market). Just like blossoming of private schools (both good and dubious) because of heavy govt intervention into education and choking the supply (w.r.t actual demand).

Cartels basically develop when there is not proper free market...and this invariably ties to the govt in the end (directly, indirectly or both).

A lot in your post are good, pragmatic suggestions. Some states have taken such things on board (cooperative formation help etc) and there is now also a federal e-NAM program (to improve more market access for every farmer). It will take some time to fully permeate and percolate (and also to bring in the requisite parallel investment into cold storage warehouses, food processing etc), lets see how it goes. But the older status quo where its still entrenched....is largely on govt I would say....lot of the cartel thugs have political connections too. The govt is not a very segregated delineated thing in lot of places in India...they are hand in hand with perpetuating the social ills and economic problems (just to maintain optics of later intervention)....i.e keep issues on the gentle simmer rather than boiling away the water.
 
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Friend, why you think these cartels exist? Who backs and gains from them etc?

They are a natural consequence of the Mandi system pretty much forced on farmers. When you have enforcement of limited buy/sell avenues (i.e market distortion), the cartels inevitably appear. Just like black market appears when you have rationing (another govt intervention in the market). Just like blossoming of private schools (both good and dubious) because of heavy govt intervention into education and choking the supply (w.r.t actual demand).

Cartels basically develop when there is not proper free market...and this invariably ties to the govt in the end (directly, indirectly or both).

A lot in your post are good, pragmatic suggestions. Some states have taken such things on board (cooperative formation help etc) and there is now also a federal e-NAM program (to improve more market access for every farmer). It will take some time to fully permeate and percolate (and also to bring in the requisite parallel investment into cold storage warehouses, food processing etc), lets see how it goes. But the older status quo where its still entrenched....is largely on govt I would say....lot of the cartel thugs have political connections too. The govt is not a very segregated delineated thing in lot of places in India...they are hand in hand with perpetuating the social ills and economic problems (just to maintain optics of later intervention)....i.e keep issues on the gentle simmer rather than boiling away the water.
Good post. Thank you for pointing me to “mandi” market. After some read up (probably should have done earlier), I started to understand your point wrt government involvement in the Indian Agri market. key regulations like APMC has played key role in contributing the inefficiency/distortion in the market place.

An article on Business Today summarizes it quite nicely about the current state. APMC is being followed in India which limits the scope of trading in agriculture commodities. There are multiple translation costs levied to move the produce from one mandi to another even within the same state. Multiple licenses are required to trade in different market in the same state. This has lead to a expensive and fragmented economy, increasing the gain for middlemen and minimize the farmers market.

eNAM seems really promising and there has been good buyin from existing mandi markets. It probably needs to be harmonized with liberalization of regulations wrt licensing etc but all seem to move the right direction.
 
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Good post. Thank you for pointing me to “mandi” market. After some read up (probably should have done earlier), I started to understand your point wrt government involvement in the Indian Agri market. key regulations like APMC has played key role in contributing the inefficiency/distortion in the market place.

An article on Business Today summarizes it quite nicely about the current state. APMC is being followed in India which limits the scope of trading in agriculture commodities. There are multiple translation costs levied to move the produce from one mandi to another even within the same state. Multiple licenses are required to trade in different market in the same state. This has lead to a expensive and fragmented economy, increasing the gain for middlemen and minimize the farmers market.

eNAM seems really promising and there has been good buyin from existing mandi markets. It probably needs to be harmonized with liberalization of regulations wrt licensing etc but all seem to move the right direction.

Yep truly (a while ago) I studied and contrasted the ground level "bottom-up" reform that Deng did (often overlooked in favour of studying the industrial + SEZ + export "juicy" brochure stuff) that India was either slow to do or still has not done (effectively or at all) in rural+agri areas. Thus I am quite aware of the specific areas where legacy of the license raj kind of over-control complex (even to micro production unit level) by the socialist state still continued in India's case (and some persist)...especially when it concerns the bulk of traditional voting blocs (rural + agri) etc. Same goes for subcontinent more broadly.

Here is a good read (a summary for me given the depth I went into heh) in China's case:

http://factsanddetails.com/china/cat2/sub7/item347.html#chapter-0

You are right with now better digital infra (e-Nam etc), there is good opportunity increasing to "bypass" the older legacy stuff altogether (rather than hack it down/re-invent/reform it etc which is a nightmare in India's case lot of the time) esp combined with aadhar etc.

It's similar to why IT industry took off in India in the 90s (helped by the 91 reforms), simply the Indian govt had not regulated the sector so much.. because it was quite an unknown/unforeseen thing in the earlier socialist era.

@Joe Shearer @jbgt90 @scorpionx @lemurian @Krptonite @Dante80 @serenity @Two @Tanveer666 @Mage @bluesky @Atlas @Indus Pakistan @anant_s @ziaulislam @VCheng @OsmanAli98 @Jackdaws @Jungibaaz @Chak Bamu @Desert Fox @Major Sam @farhan_9909
 
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Yep truly (a while ago) I studied and contrasted the ground level "bottom-up" reform that Deng did (often overlooked in favour of studying the industrial + SEZ + export "juicy" brochure stuff) that India was either slow to do or still has not done (effectively or at all) in rural+agri areas. Thus I am quite aware of the specific areas where legacy of the license raj kind of over-control complex (even to micro production unit level) by the socialist state still continued in India's case (and some persist)...especially when it concerns the bulk of traditional voting blocs (rural + agri) etc. Same goes for subcontinent more broadly.

Here is a good read (a summary for me given the depth I went into heh) in China's case:

http://factsanddetails.com/china/cat2/sub7/item347.html#chapter-0

You are right with now better digital infra (e-Nam etc), there is good opportunity increasing to "bypass" the older legacy stuff altogether (rather than hack it down/re-invent/reform it etc which is a nightmare in India's case lot of the time) esp combined with aadhar etc.

It's similar to why IT industry took off in India in the 90s (helped by the 91 reforms), simply the Indian govt had not regulated the sector so much.. because it was quite an unknown/unforeseen thing in the earlier socialist era.

@Joe Shearer @jbgt90 @scorpionx @lemurian @Krptonite @Dante80 @serenity @Two @Tanveer666 @Mage @bluesky @Atlas @Indus Pakistan @anant_s @ziaulislam @VCheng @OsmanAli98 @Jackdaws @Jungibaaz @Chak Bamu @Desert Fox @Major Sam @farhan_9909


What I do find funny to observe (for both countries) is a Communist and Socialist system achieving economic success by following Capitalist principles while proclaiming their old ideals as the best way forward, and creating filthy rich classes while doing it all to serve the society at large. :D

(And yet still Capitalism is evil! :lol: )
 
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Yep truly (a while ago) I studied and contrasted the ground level "bottom-up" reform that Deng did (often overlooked in favour of studying the industrial + SEZ + export "juicy" brochure stuff) that India was either slow to do or still has not done (effectively or at all) in rural+agri areas. Thus I am quite aware of the specific areas where legacy of the license raj kind of over-control complex (even to micro production unit level) by the socialist state still continued in India's case (and some persist)...especially when it concerns the bulk of traditional voting blocs (rural + agri) etc. Same goes for subcontinent more broadly.

Here is a good read (a summary for me given the depth I went into heh) in China's case:

http://factsanddetails.com/china/cat2/sub7/item347.html#chapter-0

You are right with now better digital infra (e-Nam etc), there is good opportunity increasing to "bypass" the older legacy stuff altogether (rather than hack it down/re-invent/reform it etc which is a nightmare in India's case lot of the time) esp combined with aadhar etc.

It's similar to why IT industry took off in India in the 90s (helped by the 91 reforms), simply the Indian govt had not regulated the sector so much.. because it was quite an unknown/unforeseen thing in the earlier socialist era.

@Joe Shearer @jbgt90 @scorpionx @lemurian @Krptonite @Dante80 @serenity @Two @Tanveer666 @Mage @bluesky @Atlas @Indus Pakistan @anant_s @ziaulislam @VCheng @OsmanAli98 @Jackdaws @Jungibaaz @Chak Bamu @Desert Fox @Major Sam @farhan_9909
I have an idea. It may be immature... We should encourage farmers to put agricultural products on e-commerce platform. @GeraltofRivia You know, some Chinese farmers do this.

@Nilgiri do you think that?
 
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What I do find funny to observe (for both countries) is a Communist and Socialist system achieving economic success by following Capitalist principles while proclaiming their old ideals as the best way forward, and creating filthy rich classes while doing it all to serve the society at large. :D

(And yet still Capitalism is evil! :lol: )

Well human ego and psyche is another realm altogether. For example what is now being proposed by many democrat presidential candidates...on top of lot of socialist stuff already implanted into the US that really took off since LBJ :P...but the US is near purely capitalistic apparently.

To me its not so much about the labelling (which ties into that human ego) of what is capitalist and socialist etc (for whatever higher purpose a leader/politician/1%-er might have on that)...its the actual content,merit and data of the policy (working or not working)....and also the moral argument.

To me socialism is forced, as it takes (by govt power) resources of one individual to give to another....thus the argument for doing so has to be bourne by the data (as opposed to the default that exists...which can be argued to be capitalism)....if not it must be allowed to revert to the better default at the minimum.

To me simply improving the moral, legal and executive framework of society should be the key (so things operate by free will and free markets as much as possible, except only the areas clearly delineated by proof and logic and debate where authority is absolutely required for a society to exist) rather than disproportionate political investiture into a small group of people who simply go about stealing from people who have more, to "give" to those that have less...which generally just ends up in everyone losing long term (as dependency replaces responsibility....as despondency and envy replaces drive and self-improvement...as immoral big govt replaces moral free choice).

Adam Smith wrote it best in his two major works. They are a must read even for those that think capitalism is evil.

I have an idea. It may be immature... We should encourage farmers to put agricultural products on e-commerce platform. @GeraltofRivia You know, some Chinese farmers do this.

@Nilgiri do you think that?

Yes this is what India is trying to get going with e-NAM. There have been previous programs, but now there is actual infrastructure thats taking shape to really give it the scale needed.
 
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Yep truly (a while ago) I studied and contrasted the ground level "bottom-up" reform that Deng did (often overlooked in favour of studying the industrial + SEZ + export "juicy" brochure stuff) that India was either slow to do or still has not done (effectively or at all) in rural+agri areas. Thus I am quite aware of the specific areas where legacy of the license raj kind of over-control complex (even to micro production unit level) by the socialist state still continued in India's case (and some persist)...especially when it concerns the bulk of traditional voting blocs (rural + agri) etc. Same goes for subcontinent more broadly.

Here is a good read (a summary for me given the depth I went into heh) in China's case:

http://factsanddetails.com/china/cat2/sub7/item347.html#chapter-0

You are right with now better digital infra (e-Nam etc), there is good opportunity increasing to "bypass" the older legacy stuff altogether (rather than hack it down/re-invent/reform it etc which is a nightmare in India's case lot of the time) esp combined with aadhar etc.

It's similar to why IT industry took off in India in the 90s (helped by the 91 reforms), simply the Indian govt had not regulated the sector so much.. because it was quite an unknown/unforeseen thing in the earlier socialist era.

@Joe Shearer @jbgt90 @scorpionx @lemurian @Krptonite @Dante80 @serenity @Two @Tanveer666 @Mage @bluesky @Atlas @Indus Pakistan @anant_s @ziaulislam @VCheng @OsmanAli98 @Jackdaws @Jungibaaz @Chak Bamu @Desert Fox @Major Sam @farhan_9909

I lived in the US when the Indian IT sector took off. There was one major catalyst - Y2K. Everything just gelled at the right time.
 
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Well human ego and psyche is another realm altogether. For example what is now being proposed by many democrat presidential candidates...on top of lot of socialist stuff already implanted into the US that really took off since LBJ :P...but the US is near purely capitalistic apparently.

To me its not so much about the labelling (which ties into that human ego) of what is capitalist and socialist etc (for whatever higher purpose a leader/politician/1%-er might have on that)...its the actual content,merit and data of the policy (working or not working)....and also the moral argument.

To me socialism is forced, as it takes (by govt power) resources of one individual to give to another....thus the argument for doing so has to be bourne by the data (as opposed to the default that exists...which can be argued to be capitalism)....if not it must be allowed to revert to the better default at the minimum.

To me simply improving the moral, legal and executive framework of society should be the key (so things operate by free will and free markets as much as possible, except only the areas clearly delineated by proof and logic and debate where authority is absolutely required for a society to exist) rather than disproportionate political investiture into a small group of people who simply go about stealing from people who have more, to "give" to those that have less...which generally just ends up in everyone losing long term (as dependency replaces responsibility....as despondency and envy replaces drive and self-improvement...as immoral big govt replaces moral free choice).

Adam Smith wrote it best in his two major works. They are a must read even for those that think capitalism is evil.



Yes this is what India is trying to get going with e-NAM. There have been previous programs, but now there is actual infrastructure thats taking shape to really give it the scale needed.

To me capitalism and socialism are 2 ends of the spectrum and there is no country can be regarded as extreme or pure form of either capitalism or socialism, rather the nations are all somewhere in the middle. Tax is a common form of wealth transfer that is practiced extensively in the capitalist countries. It is clearly not a volunteery matter and wealth is being transferred from one class to another depending on how government sees appropriate. The amount being taxed has clearly gone way beyond to the level of keeping the government and public service running. It has profound impact to the economical outcome. The amount of governmental involvement can be seen clearly in the GDP calculation.

What is notable to me is that both capitalism-ish and socialism-ish countries have been fine tuning their system over the years and they have made adjustments based on the lessons they learned either through their own experience or other countries’ experience. USSR’s early success (rapid industrialization, science advancement etc) and ultimate failure have provided great lesson to other socialist countries like China. On the other hand, a more socialist flavored Keynesian economics was also prompted to address the flaw in the classical capitalism that caused the major crisis in the 30s and almost brought down to entire capitalist world. I kind of regard this dynamic being some sorts of convergence between these two schools that are commonly treated as mutually exclusive.

I have an idea. It may be immature... We should encourage farmers to put agricultural products on e-commerce platform. @GeraltofRivia You know, some Chinese farmers do this.

@Nilgiri do you think that?
I know what you mean, lots of farmers sell their produce mostly fruits on TaoBao directly the consumers.

What is needed in Indian rural food grain market is something like Alibaba (b2b) which is basically eNAM.
 
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To me capitalism and socialism are 2 ends of the spectrum and there is no country can be regarded as extreme or pure form of either capitalism or socialism, rather the nations are all somewhere in the middle. Tax is a common form of wealth transfer that is practiced extensively in the capitalist countries. It is clearly not a volunteery matter and wealth is being transferred from one class to another depending on how government sees appropriate. The amount being taxed has clearly gone way beyond to the level of keeping the government and public service running. It has profound impact to the economical outcome. The amount of governmental involvement can be seen clearly in the GDP calculation.

What is notable to me is that both capitalism-ish and socialism-ish countries have been fine tuning their system over the years and they have made adjustments based on the lessons they learned either through their own experience or other countries’ experience. USSR’s early success (rapid industrialization, science advancement etc) and ultimate failure have provided great lesson to other socialist countries like China. On the other hand, a more socialist flavored Keynesian economics was also prompted to address the flaw in the classical capitalism that caused the major crisis in the 30s and almost brought down to entire capitalist world. I kind of regard this dynamic being some sorts of convergence.

Problem also with comparisons, are we don't have the alternate histories to compare the opportunity costs of how things turned out under some system.

For example with USSR, the early successes get attributed to communism...but what would have the result been like under some other system (after all Tsarist Russia certainly wasnt capitalist in any real sense either) etc.

In the end it does come to what Deng said "it doesn't matter if the cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice"...i.e doesn't matter what you call something...as long as it works. Basically it is for each society to find where authoritarian top down stuff is needed...and where it ruins things.

Take me, I am pretty libertarian at root...BUT I recognise a country needs borders + defense security, a system of law and administration etc...and all of these need some amount of resources taken away from the individual for the greater good (of society, country, civilisation etc)....and that is the fundamental operation of a government (i.e addressing stuff the individual with only free markets and free will cannot do) i.e I am not an anarchist.....in fact I find them just about as repulsive as extreme authoritarians. Just like I find pacifists as extreme as violence-mongers.
 
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To me capitalism and socialism are 2 ends of the spectrum and there is no country can be regarded as extreme or pure form of either capitalism or socialism, rather the nations are all somewhere in the middle. Tax is a common form of wealth transfer that is practiced extensively in the capitalist countries. It is clearly not a volunteery matter and wealth is being transferred from one class to another depending on how government sees appropriate. The amount being taxed has clearly gone way beyond to the level of keeping the government and public service running. It has profound impact to the economical outcome. The amount of governmental involvement can be seen clearly in the GDP calculation.

What is notable to me is that both capitalism-ish and socialism-ish countries have been fine tuning their system over the years and they have made adjustments based on the lessons they learned either through their own experience or other countries’ experience. USSR’s early success (rapid industrialization, science advancement etc) and ultimate failure have provided great lesson to other socialist countries like China. On the other hand, a more socialist flavored Keynesian economics was also prompted to address the flaw in the classical capitalism that caused the major crisis in the 30s and almost brought down to entire capitalist world. I kind of regard this dynamic being some sorts of convergence.


I know what you mean, lots of farmers sell their produce mostly fruits on TaoBao directly the consumers.

What is needed in Indian rural food grain market is something like Alibaba (b2b) which is basically eNAM.
As long as it can protect the interests of farmers, we should give 100% support.
@Nilgiri
 
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Thanks for posting @GeraltofRivia



This is exactly what I have been on about on other threads. There is too little actual free market opportunity for farmers...this is the single biggest cause of depressed prices....esp as their production increases.

The govt causes the problem in first place, just so it can intervene (downstream of the problem) in another way to "fix/address" it. Similar to how minimum wage legislation is unnecessary if the govt didnt heavily intervene in the free market in all kinds of ways (that create all kinds of price distortions) in the first place.
My aunt has potato farms and it has huge risk due to all the diseases that crop prone too. She sell 5 Rs per 5 KG in market while we get around 50 Rs per 5Kg so someone in between getting rich for no reason at all.
 
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As long as it can protect the interests of farmers, we should give 100% support.
@Nilgiri
There are so many competing interests, so many stake holders, any action for the relief of farmers tends to be distorted by those interests.

Its come to the point where any action taken as relief for one section in the produce chain comes at the cost of either the farmer or the customer(never the movers and shakers:undecided:)

Digitisation and a common market network access for all, something along the lines of a flipkart for produce(a direct connection between sellers and buyers) should be an optimum solution, or atleast should be encouraged. There are startups which do exactly that, but none of them currently are big enough to cover the entire country under one network( they are in nascent stages) .
 
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