Record number of Pakistanis visited India last year

[Sam Manekshaw]

Poison expands. It's like cancer. It won't stay one place or affect one place only.

Right

 

[halupridol]

@Contrarian
u do make some interesting points....
but dont u think, there r protocols in place to restrict the potentially harmful entries,,,,,i doubt ,its easy for Pakistanis to get Indian visa...

 

[Icarus]

Icarus, you are a man of numbers and analysis.

Let me break down the details. Most radicalization has happened in Pakistani punjab. It is 10 times more than what has happened in Sindh. It is in Punjab that SSP has a base, it is in Punjab where Punjab police damages graves of Ahmadis, it is in Punjab where massive crowds gather to kill people accused of blasphemy, it in Punjab where educated lawyers throw roses on Qadri.

Now the maximum number of Pakistani's that come to India are from Pakistani Punjab. Are you able to gather how the the extremists in Pakistan are disproportionately more represented in the tourists to India.

I would disagree, these instances you noted have a degree of recurrence which I will address one by one:

1. Punjab has seen more radicalization than Sindh because it has been a systematic target of foreign funded madrassahs and terrorist recruitment due to the high population density.

2. SSP is severely disabled in Punjab, they have little circulation out of a small portion of Jhang and have otherwise been eliminated to a great degree, their loyal elements now exist as the ASWJ who represent a small segment of society but they have been de-weaponized and they have now become a matter of little priority. The SSP still hold sway in areas of Balochistan where they have pledged allegiance to LeJ.

3. Use of Punjab Police to destroy Ahmedi graves is a very isolated occurrence. They may be tasked to remove the Kalimah from the graves which I condemn none the less.

4. Mumtaz Qadri should have never been able to garner that sort of support but unfortunately, Salman Taseer had been painted as such a deviant that supporting Qadri became some sort of worship, I got into heated arguments with some of my distant relatives who said that I was a heretic for not supporting Qadri.

5. The crowd violence is usually triggered by religious parties, the people have no real connections to religious parties or terrorists and neither do they have any sympathy for their agendas, its just mob mentality. Though I agree it must be curbed.

 

[Contrarian]

Touche, but it was not something that happened in months or even years, it took over 3 decades of gradual ideological corruption.

And why do you think that this cannot be a start to those very same 3 decades in India ?
India and Pakistan are both going to be here 3 decades from now.

Maybe three decades from today, we say the same thing, that it was not a big deal earlier, but we let it carry over for a long time and today we have the same problems.

So my question is - while I appreciate all normalization of relations and trade and mutual benefit in a hundred areas. I am not in favour of granting visas to ordinary Pakistani's. It is the middle and lower class who is always the most affected by radicalization.

Therefore, only the elites of Pakistan(on all sphere's - economic, cultural, military, political) must be given visas. And relations can be carried forward and deals transacted, if we take along the elites of Pakistan.

 

[cyphercide]

It applies to everyone.

Not really. I'm certain you wouldn't feel the same way if a loved one from your family was on the waiting list for a organ transplant and some Pakistani gets priority because he has more cash to pay.

There is no facility for a transplant back home,” he says over video, still not completely up to hobnobbing with media persons. His folks did a search and contacted K.R.Balakrishnan, director, Cardiac Sciences, Fortis Malar Hospital, here.
He was critically ill even as he was flown to Chennai via Dubai from Lahore.To make matters worse, he was Hepatitis C positive.

Though he spent about two months in the ICU at the hospital, Ashmi’s condition continued to deteriorate. Doctors had to find a donor heart for him or put him on an artificial implant device. It turns out a donor became available in March. The family of a 37-year-old man who had met with a road accident and been declared brain dead, came forward to donate the organs.

A transplant that won a Pakistani heart - The Hindu

Keep in mind that this is a mullah being funded by the Pakistani state. Only god knows what he teaches kids back home.

 

[Icarus]

so.....adding a line that "I was trolling" or adding a 'sarcastic' smiley after using slur......is ok according to you.....
Is that what you suggest to avoid negative ratings??.......

Secondly, when a person is admitting that he is trolling......why not give him an infraction/negative rating..........oh! I forgot, you consider trolling as "building an argument".........

If he had offered a one liner or used slurs, I would have rated him too. In my opinion, he was not out of line.
If you feel my judgement is flawed, you are free to refer your case to the management for referral.

 

[Chronos]

You look at PDF itself... There are people who are hostile towards each other, and there are people who are friendly to each other....

stop talking sense, logic looks bleak in this insane asylum

These acts do not represent Indian culture, some of them are even born and raised there... and such acts happen many eastern societies (and believe it or not even in your country!) If you honestly believe in the nonsense written by you, I feel sorry for you.

And besides, Indian immigrants are hardworking and are considered as a model minority in many countries and play a significant role in the economies of their new countries.

@WishLivePak did say that he was trolling the @Contrarian

 

[Contrarian]

Do you have a breakdown of the Pakistani visitor numbers in terms of Indian state??

No, I dont.

@Contrarian
u do make some interesting points....
but dont u think, there r protocols in place to restrict the potentially harmful entries,,,,,i doubt ,its easy for Pakistanis to get Indian visa...

There are protocols in place to prevent terrorists and their known sympathisers.

But I reiterate, this is not about terrorists and their sympathisers. This is about the common Pakistani's. Those Pakistani's who do not condone terrorism.

But even they have their social outlook which is very - dare I say - Contrarian - to the generic Indian social outlook.
Their views on Islam, blasphemy, Shariah, jihad, and Ahmadis, non-Muslims are very distinct thanks to decades of creeping radicalization injected in their society.

And they will undoubtedly leave their mark on those they interact with. In limited numbers, this would not be a problem at all. But looking at massive numbers like 1 lakh per annum, it will leave a major impact in 1 decade's time.

 

[halupridol]

Icarus, you are a man of numbers and analysis.

Let me break down the details. Most radicalization has happened in Pakistani punjab. It is 10 times more than what has happened in Sindh. It is in Punjab that SSP has a base, it is in Punjab where Punjab police damages graves of Ahmadis, it is in Punjab where massive crowds gather to kill people accused of blasphemy, it in Punjab where educated lawyers throw roses on Qadri.

Now the maximum number of Pakistani's that come to India are from Pakistani Punjab. Are you able to gather how the the extremists in Pakistan are disproportionately more represented in the tourists to India.

punjabis again lol

 

[Contrarian]

punjabis again lol

Pakistan punjab. Indian punjab is non sequitor to this discussion. Its cumbersome to write Pakistani Punjab each time.

 

[Chronos]

No, I dont.

There are protocols in place to prevent terrorists and their known sympathisers.

But I reiterate, this is not about terrorists and their sympathisers. This is about the common Pakistani's. Those Pakistani's who do not condone terrorism.

But even they have their social outlook which is very - dare I say - Contrarian - to the generic Indian social outlook.
Their views on Islam, blasphemy, Shariah, jihad, and Ahmadis, non-Muslims are very distinct thanks to decades of creeping radicalization injected in their society.

And they will undoubtedly leave their mark on those they interact with. In limited numbers, this would not be a problem at all. But looking at massive numbers like 1 lakh per annum, it will leave a major impact in 1 decade's time.

I do have to ask one question though, if you have such low opinion of Pakistan and Pakistanis, I am curious as to why you are in this forum, and do you think Indians are that gullible to be easily persuaded? Aren't you infantilising Indians?

 

[Icarus]

And why do you think that this cannot be a start to those very same 3 decades in India ?
India and Pakistan are both going to be here 3 decades from now.

Maybe three decades from today, we say the same thing, that it was not a big deal earlier, but we let it carry over for a long time and today we have the same problems.

So my question is - while I appreciate all normalization of relations and trade and mutual benefit in a hundred areas. I am not in favour of granting visas to ordinary Pakistani's. It is the middle and lower class who is always the most affected by radicalization.

Therefore, only the elites of Pakistan(on all sphere's - economic, cultural, military, political) must be given visas. And relations can be carried forward and deals transacted, if we take along the elites of Pakistan.

I read the same argument elsewhere on the forum as well and I was quick to point out that this approach has been tried and failed. During Ayub's time, the relations between India and Pakistan were quite cordial, there was significant economic activity and it seemed that the two were very close to becoming perfect neighbours but because the people had not been taken onboard, we see that the cordial relations have broken down, we have no real trade but the hate still remains. If the same momentum has had been maintained and had taken the populations onboard, we might have achieved something of consequence.
We don't have to start issuing visas to every Tom, Dick and Harry for there to be peace, simply initiating greater contact is enough to start a movement, greater sports, student visits, some common representation such as highlighting Indo-Pak co-operation is SAARC or the UN (where troops fight under the same banner) can help turn public opinion around.
If we stick with fostering hatred by running hate campaign on TV, run news of false encounters pointing to each other's nations without any proof and continue to exploit the "Anti-Them" vote bank to secure positions in politics, I am afraid that we will continue to be at each other's throats.

 

[halupridol]

No, I dont.

There are protocols in place to prevent terrorists and their known sympathisers.

But I reiterate, this is not about terrorists and their sympathisers. This is about the common Pakistani's. Those Pakistani's who do not condone terrorism.

But even they have their social outlook which is very - dare I say - Contrarian - to the generic Indian social outlook.
Their views on Islam, blasphemy, Shariah, jihad, and Ahmadis, non-Muslims are very distinct thanks to decades of creeping radicalization injected in their society.

And they will undoubtedly leave their mark on those they interact with. In limited numbers, this would not be a problem at all. But looking at massive numbers like 1 lakh per annum, it will leave a major impact in 1 decade's time..

damn,,,,,,that's a strong valid argument...
r u a lawyer,,mishraji?

 

[oFFbEAT]

If he had offered a one liner or used slurs, I would have rated him too. In my opinion, he was not out of line.
If you feel my judgement is flawed, you are free to refer your case to the management for referral.

.....I got infractions so many times before.....and the reason they gave is 'TROLLING' or 'TROL POST'........and here is a person admitting that he is trolling himself and you think he is not eligible for an infraction let alone a negative rating??.....

 

[Contrarian]

I do have to ask one question though, if you have such low opinion of Pakistan and Pakistanis, I am curious as to why you are in this forum,

My job somewhat involves Pakistan.

and do you think Indians are that gullible to be easily persuaded? Aren't you infantilising Indians?

No I am not.
Society and culture keeps changing. Consequently which direction it changes to must be controlled.
It is easy for hardliners and extremists to gain space in society than it is for liberals and moderates. Human nature I suppose.

And I have seen the effects of this first hand. I gave an example in another post. I am sure when the wahabi mosques and funding came in Pakistan, they felt the same thing. That people were capable enough to reject it and it would entail no social cost. Just as how they were proved wrong, so will we if we think that we can let this continue on such a scale and have no consequences to pay for it.