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Realistic worst care scenarios for Indian Muslims

In north india it doesnt remain because of the islamic invasions.Go to south india and you will find the greatest temples in existence.The red forts can be easily matched by the forts of rajasthan.Beautiful temples in the classical nagara style have been rebuilt at somnath and at ashkardham.Ashokas stupas still stand.The iron pillar still stands rust free as a testament to indian metallurgy.As for exotic portrayal,not anymore..the hoysala temples at halebidu,the meenakshi amman and ajanta ellora.Go watch the videos on youtube.Halebidu is a wonder,never ever seen such intricate stonework on granite anywhere in the world.And it wasnt even known until recently.The internet has changed the world.

Most indian women still wear and will continue to wear saree with several regional styles.Unless they are wearing casual westerns.Salwars are largely limited to north western india and some cities.And salwars were introduced by sakas,not turks.Saree is the epitome of indian female dress and an indian woman always looks most beautiful in it.They know it.

Our language is 'ours'.We will not speak foreign tongue and adopt foreign script and be mental slaves of middle eastern civilization.You are welcome to do it.Sanskrit we consider the noblest and most precise language of all.Tamil is as old.Nothing against arabic or farsi ,they are beautiful too.But they are not us.If you want to be second rate arab-persian knockoff imitations without anything of your own you are welcome to it.
As for landmass.We don't care,we never have.We don't have a global mission to spread across the world.India has always been an insular civilization.Nobody cares.

Gunpowder was invented in china and was transmitted to middle east from there by the mongols,it wasnt invented in the muslim middle east.There is not a single significant invention between 1500-1700 when the 3 islamic empires were at their peak.
Indian civilization had universities.The best in the world that attracted students from as far as egypt and china.We all know what happened to those universities and were replaced by useless madrasas under royal patronage.Islamic india was a dismal scientific failure along with its middle eastern cousins that allowed tiny western nations to totally outcompete and eventually dominate them.

It is actually the arabs and the turks that are tribal societies.Only thing they kept was their language.Its is the persians and graeco-romans that civilized these nomads.We taught the arabs how to count.So called 'arabic' numerals makes an indian chuckle with amusment.Persia is the one great civilization worthy of respect.India has its own language,script,coinage,sacred geography,epics,stories,architecture,art,schools of philosophy, dance, food,music,mathematics,dress,customs.We will not be arabized,we wont prostrate 5 times a day towards the arabian desert or feel our life in incomplete without trip to arabian desert.Look at egypt and mesoptamia,just generic arab nations now who have lost all their ancient greatness and identity.Their ancestors would spit on them if they could see them now.We will never go down that road.India has its own identity and own unique path.Like us or hate us we will stay on it.We dont intend to become a people without identity and culture of their own.
Islamophobia in a nutshell.
 
Lets see what Indian Muslims on this forum say about you involving your western neighbor.

@The_Showstopper @AfrazulMandal @xeuss @secular.muslim
Thanks for the tag.

Well, while definitely the Hindutva brigade is hell bent on destroying the Muslim minority in India, in practical terms apart from the riots (Once sided murder, plunder & rapes) which has been happening against minorities, there is nt much they can do about it. Most of the Muslims in India, are devout, adhering to Sunni / Salafi branch of Islam. I can clearly see a shift to salafi school of thought in the last two decades. And these Muslims tend to be more devout and hence it is difficult to dilute them the way RSS is hoping regardless of the multifaceted propaganda and discrimination they perpetuate.
In fact, they are actually helping ordinary Muslims to have a higher resolve in maintaining their faith. Even historically, Muslims always have been a minority in India even while they were ruling the subcontinent. If anyone is thinking the larger number is somehow equated to higher efficiency, just look at the current state of affairs in the world. Jews, number a few million, Japs the same, even most European countries are not bigger than a state in India. So what we cannot achieve with 200 million, we possibly can't with 2 billion as well.
I would summarize the immediate steps needed to be taken as below. I really don't know if it somehow can materialize even in the next decade or so, will be very happy if so.

Move to Muslims majority areas / states and become politically assertive. concentrated population = more number of MPs in parliament + Physical security from so called "riots". this needs to be done in the most unstable / insecure places ASAP.
In areas where the above is not possible, make sure to make broader political alliance with secular parties. Yes, they do exists though not as visible as RSS / BJP

As for exterminating Muslims in India, its just the day dream of retarded Sanghis. Its not 1940s and Muslims are not just a few million like the Jews to be thrown out to Arabian sea. Moreover, people who dream of imitating Nazi Germany, India is not remotely as capable a country as 1940s Germany. Moreover, Sanghis are not invincible as they want you to believe. Its all false bravado, only to be shown with full support of law enforcement. Secular Hindu organizations like Maoists are far more deadly. Even mainstream political parties like CPIM (Communist party) in Kerala is another example, which again, is majority Hindus.

And yeah, same applies to a Pakistan sponsored armed struggle. Neither Pak has the resources to sustain such a massive undertaking, nor Muslims in India at this stage has any appetite for it.

Till now, none of us has ever thought about such a scenario, apart from few downtrodden Muslims from north who are at the receiving end and has taken some desperate measures.

At the moment, we feel such a drastic measure is uncalled for, as the avenues of addressing the grievances are not completely lost. At least, so do we hope. Next 10 years are very important.

Else it won't bode well for anyone involved.
 
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WHAT A LIAR YOU'RE WE ALWAYS WANT TO PLEBISCITE IN IOK ACCORDING TO UN RESOLUTIONS
YOU ALWAYS ATTACHED STRINGS TO THE TABLE NOT PAKISTAN
All caps- are you yelling?- Cool down its only a discussion- Go google about what the prerequisites are- (You have already gifted a small part to China anyways)-
 
It is actually the arabs and the turks that are tribal societies.Only thing they kept was their language.Its is the persians and graeco-romans that civilized these nomads.We taught the arabs how to count.So called 'arabic' numerals makes an indian chuckle with amusment.Persia is the one great civilization worthy of respect.India has its own language,script,coinage,sacred geography,epics,stories,architecture,art,schools of philosophy, dance, food,music,mathematics,dress,customs.We will not be arabized,we wont prostrate 5 times a day towards the arabian desert or feel our life in incomplete without trip to arabian desert.Look at egypt and mesoptamia,just generic arab nations now who have lost all their ancient greatness and identity.Their ancestors would spit on them if they could see them now.We will never go down that road.India has its own identity and own unique path.Like us or hate us we will stay on it.We dont intend to become a people without identity and culture of their own.

In a separate thread, you claimed all these were unjustified complaints of the radical Hindus. In this, almost verbatim para, you seem to be repeating them as your own.

So what is it?
 
In a separate thread, you claimed all these were unjustified complaints of the radical Hindus. In this, almost verbatim para, you seem to be repeating them as your own.

So what is it?
I agree but this Afrazul guy usually come off as insulting to Hindus/Hinduism too. I think we should rather leave the ancients in their graves/rivers, my concerns include the living people mainly.
 
There is not a single significant invention between 1500-1700 when the 3 islamic empires were at their peak.
Indian civilization had universities.The best in the world that attracted students from as far as egypt and china.We all know what happened to those universities and were replaced by useless madrasas under royal patronage.Islamic india was a dismal scientific failure along with its middle eastern cousins that allowed tiny western nations to totally outcompete and eventually dominate them.

I note that you added a caveat of "significant" as a qualifier before the word invention. The use of a vague adjective is deliberate because you know that scientific inventions were present during the Ottomon and Mughal years, you just don't want to give them any credit. Therefore, I don't think it would be wise to provide any examples (a simple google search brings up many), because you will simply dismiss them as non-significant, since obviously you have no interest in looking at this objectively, but rather scoring points.

That brings us to the second point. Universities in pre-Islamic India. Sure there were a few, and like any normal civilization that exists and progresses, centers of education were a must. Nalanda, the most famous one, was a Buddhist center of learning. Taxila and Vikramshila, two other famous ones, were also Buddhist Universities. There were also few less famous one, whose names escape me now, but they were all Buddhist centers of learning.

I am quite perplexed that why did the Hindus not establish great centers of learning? Could it be because of the infamous caste system, where education was reserved for only the Brahmin class? Is it possible that in order to get educated, ancient Indians converted to Buddhism, in order to access education? And perhaps that is why these universities flourished?

You then go on to make the claim that the Muslim empires in India, provided patronage to the madrassas, where scientific invention was scarce, and that is what contributed to the eventual colonization of India.

These are very tall claims that take an element of truth and surround it by lies to further a weak position. While it is true that madrassas were patronized by the ruling Muslims, these were not religious seminaries as they are today. During the Muslim world, madrassas were schools where every science was thought. Education was imparted to both Muslims and non-Muslims. The famous pearls of Akbar's court, all Hindus, were all educated in madrassas.

Like every education system, when closely analyzed, flaws begin to appear. This was no exception. Modern historians have noted some of these flaws, namely that education was stale and narrow. Basically a curriculum once established, was rarely modified to meet the evolving needs of society.

Now I am sure we can say that this was one of the contributors of British rule in the subcontinent, but to claim that this was the only contributor or even a major contributor is a stretch.

Mostly irreligious here, half of my lot are xtians, pa in law is a bigot with a Portugese passport lol

mujhe mat sikha faith shaith and the rest of that chewtiap. lol

I have observed your posts and behavior on this forum for the last few weeks and a few things stand out.

You have studied enough of Islam and Muslims to point out what are their "perceived flaws" in your opinion. Mostly the perceived flaws that you cite are vague generalizations based on a little bit of information.

At the same time, when confronted with flaws within your own society, you brush them aside, mostly citing that you don't care or, as above, are irreligious, so therefore exempt from any criticism.

I just find your behavior curious, and wanted to better understand, why you spend so much effort to on a society, just to malign it at every opportunity you get.
 
I note that you added a caveat of "significant" as a qualifier before the word invention. The use of a vague adjective is deliberate because you know that scientific inventions were present during the Ottomon and Mughal years, you just don't want to give them any credit. Therefore, I don't think it would be wise to provide any examples (a simple google search brings up many), because you will simply dismiss them as non-significant, since obviously you have no interest in looking at this objectively, but rather scoring points.

That brings us to the second point. Universities in pre-Islamic India. Sure there were a few, and like any normal civilization that exists and progresses, centers of education were a must. Nalanda, the most famous one, was a Buddhist center of learning. Taxila and Vikramshila, two other famous ones, were also Buddhist Universities. There were also few less famous one, whose names escape me now, but they were all Buddhist centers of learning.

I am quite perplexed that why did the Hindus not establish great centers of learning? Could it be because of the infamous caste system, where education was reserved for only the Brahmin class? Is it possible that in order to get educated, ancient Indians converted to Buddhism, in order to access education? And perhaps that is why these universities flourished?

You then go on to make the claim that the Muslim empires in India, provided patronage to the madrassas, where scientific invention was scarce, and that is what contributed to the eventual colonization of India.

These are very tall claims that take an element of truth and surround it by lies to further a weak position. While it is true that madrassas were patronized by the ruling Muslims, these were not religious seminaries as they are today. During the Muslim world, madrassas were schools where every science was thought. Education was imparted to both Muslims and non-Muslims. The famous pearls of Akbar's court, all Hindus, were all educated in madrassas.

Like every education system, when closely analyzed, flaws begin to appear. This was no exception. Modern historians have noted some of these flaws, namely that education was stale and narrow. Basically a curriculum once established, was rarely modified to meet the evolving needs of society.

Now I am sure we can say that this was one of the contributors of British rule in the subcontinent, but to claim that this was the only contributor or even a major contributor is a stretch.



I have observed your posts and behavior on this forum for the last few weeks and a few things stand out.

You have studied enough of Islam and Muslims to point out what are their "perceived flaws" in your opinion. Mostly the perceived flaws that you cite are vague generalizations based on a little bit of information.

At the same time, when confronted with flaws within your own society, you brush them aside, mostly citing that you don't care or, as above, are irreligious, so therefore exempt from any criticism.

I just find your behavior curious, and wanted to better understand, why you spend so much effort to on a society, just to malign it at every opportunity you get.


Good informative post...


It was not the Muslim invaders who destroyed the Takshila or Nalanda universities established by the Buddhists...rather the Brahmanical rulers who were against any sage and knowledge delivered to the natives and masses, how can they perpetuate their regime with universities and centers of learning when these are anti thesis to the Brahmanical forces...

Posting a related article, full article attached below.

Buddhist shrines massively destroyed by Brahmanical rulers in "pre-Islamic" era: Historian DN Jha's survey


Providing evidence from Mathura, which was a flourishing town in western Uttar Pradesh during the Kushana period, Jha says, "Some present-day Brahminical temples, such as those of Bhuteshwar and Gokarneshwar, were Buddhist sites in the ancient period. Here, the Katra Mound, a Buddhist centre during Kushana times, became a Hindu religious site in the early medieval period."

Further, at Kaushambi, near Allahabad, "the destruction and burning of the great Ghositaram monastery has been attributed to the Shungas -- more specifically to Pushyamitra", says Jha, adding, "Sarnath, near Varanasi, where the Buddha delivered his first sermon, became the target of Brahminical assault. This was followed by the construction of Brahminical buildings, such as Court 36 and Structure 136, probably in the Gupta period, by reusing Mauryan materials."

Quoting Chinese pilgrim Fa-hsien, who visited India in the early fifth century, during the Gupta period, Jha says, at Sravasti, where the Buddha spent much of his life, "Brahmins seem to have appropriated a Kushana Buddhist site, where a temple with Ramayana panels was constructed during the Gupta period."

Jha notes, "In fact, the general scenario of Buddhist establishments in what is today Uttar Pradesh was so bad that in Sultanpur district alone no less than 49 Buddhist sites seem to have been destroyed by fire when, as described in a paper by the archaeologist Alois Anton Führer, 'Brahminism won its final victories over Buddhism'.”
In the post-Gupta centuries, says Jha, Chinese Buddhist pilgrim and traveller Hsüan Tsang, who visited India between the years 631 and 645, during the reign of Harshavardhana, "states that the sixth-century Huna ruler Mihirakula, a devotee of Shiva, destroyed 1,600 Buddhist stupas and monasteries and killed thousands of Buddhist monks and laity. He further tells us that 1,000 sangharamas in Gandhara were 'deserted'/and in 'ruins,' and describes 1,400 sangharamas in Uddiyana as 'generally waste and desolate'.”

Then, says Jha, "Hsüan Tsang tells us that the king Shashanka of Gauda cut down the Bodhi tree at Bodh Gaya in Bihar -- the place of the Buddha’s enlightenment -- and removed a statue of the Buddha from a local temple, ordering that it be replaced by an image of Maheshvara... Bodh Gaya came under Buddhist control again during the period of the Pala rulers, who were Buddhists, and the place has, in fact, remained a site of religious contestation throughout Indian history."

Referring to the internationally reputed Buddhist university at Nalanda, especially the its vast monastic complex where Hsüan Tsang spent more than five years, Jha says, it's library was set on fire by "Hindu fanatics", insisting, "The popular view, however, wrongly attributes this conflagration to the Mamluk commander Bakhtiyar Khilji, who never went there, but, in fact, sacked the nearby Odantapuri Mahavihara at modern-day Bihar Sharif."

Suspecting that even the Jagannath temple at Puri, one of the most prominent Brahminical pilgrimage centres in eastern India, built in the twelfth century during the reign of the Eastern Ganga ruler Anantavarman Chodaganga Deva, "is said to have been constructed on a Buddhist site" something which "may be contested", Jha says, "There is hardly any doubt that the temples of Purneshvara, Kedareshvara, Kanteshvara, Someshvara and Angeshvara, all in Puri district, were either built on Buddhist viharas, or made of material derived from them."

https://www.counterview.net/2018/06/buddhist-shrines-massively-destroyed-by.html
 
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