Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

[Awesome]

Fauzia Wahab's stupidity criticized:

 

[Awesome]

Probe finds connection between Davis, drone attacks

KARACHI: Investigation teams were astonished to learn about Raymond Davis’s alleged connections in North Waziristan, sources told DawnNews.

Sources revealed that a GPS chip recovered from the possession of Davis was being used in identifying targets for drone attacks in the tribal region.

The 36 year old US official was hesitant in giving out information about his visits to the tribal region during investigations, sources said.

The US Embassy Officials were also exerting pressure on the investigation teams, asking the not to expose the information received from Davis.

It was also learnt that Davis made up to 12 visits to the tribal areas without prior notification to Pakistani officials.

The Punjab government has shared the investigation and the possessions recovered from Davis with the federal government, said sources.

Now this is a national security threat. Not only Davis should be on trial but the current CIA department chief in Pakistan should be taken to court on this issue.

 

[VCheng]

Too much patience, can also allow facts to be subverted through concentrated media manipulations that has started ever since the US machinery has become active.

AA: If there is any manipulation going on, it is the Pakistani media who are manipulating the general population into a needless frenzy that will be detrimental to Pakistan itself in the long run.

 

[Awesome]

AA: If there is any manipulation going on, it is the Pakistani media who are manipulating the general population into a needless frenzy that will be detrimental to Pakistan itself in the long run.

What frenzy? I don't understand what is the acceptable response in your opinion to a foreign country coming and killing your nationals?

Demand for a judicial end to this incident is not frenzy.

How you fail to see that setting a precedent of American consulate/embassy staff (which now number above 1000) murdering Pakistanis and walking off scot free won't be detrimental to Pakistan is beyond me.

Your definition of "detrimental to Pakistan" is flawed.

 

[Pak_Sher]

Probe finds connection between Davis, drone attacks



Now this is a national security threat. Not only Davis should be on trial but the current CIA department chief in Pakistan should be taken to court on this issue.

No just the CIA also the FBI Operations and their local agents need to be monitored. Mushraaf allowed CIA and FBI to hire locals. This is a big national secuirty threat.

 

[VCheng]

What frenzy? I don't understand what is the acceptable response in your opinion to a foreign country coming and killing your nationals?

Demand for a judicial end to this incident is not frenzy.

How you fail to see that setting a precedent of American consulate/embassy staff (which now number above 1000) murdering Pakistanis and walking off scot free won't be detrimental to Pakistan is beyond me.

Your definition of "detrimental to Pakistan" is flawed.

Please allow me to explain:

There is no doubt that proper process needs to be followed to adjudicate the death of two Pakistani nationals by an individual whose claim of diplomatic immunity has been verified by the sitting US president. Such a process is already underway. This "trial by media" tactic (fed by leaks from within the investigating and adjudicating authorities) for a matter that is clearly subjudice may amount to contempt of court since overt and covert threats by terrorist outfits and opportunistic political interests are well known, as well as pressure by media pundits.

Let us all wait for the hearing on the 25th without endlessly revisiting fixed points of view by both sides, that is all I can say at this point.

As for "detrimental" as I intended to use it, at present, Pakistan can ill-afford the economic price that is surely going to be extracted if this process is perceived in the US as having violated international treaties and the freedom of a diplomat. Patriotic chest-thumping about eating grass to survive is one thing, recovering from an on-going war and recent disastrous flooding, with a worsening civil strife situation, is quite another.

I hope my contention is clearer now.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Can you point out what Pakistani newspapers (not counting comments sections or anonymous letters) have advanced my arguments, specifically that (1) the diplomatic treaties are the highest law of the land, (2) that under full immunity Davis cannot be jailed or prosecuted for any reason, and that (3) even under "consular" immunity he can't be held in jail once the police on the scene had determined that no "grave crime" had been committed?

Almost every major Pakistani paper that I have read has carried articles both in support of and against the argument that Davis has blanket immunity from prosecution for the murder of two Pakistanis and his other crimes.

Here is a sampling of three articles just from today's Express Tribune:

Raymond Davis case: Bitter truths – The Express Tribune
Ghairat and other issues – The Express Tribune
Not for the court to decide – The Express Tribune

Other articles by Pakistani authors such as Kamran Shafi etc., in support of the US position, were posted earlier in the thread.

Properly analyzing the facts related to an argument you intend to make, especially when accusing an entity (in this case the Pakistani media) of one sided bias, would be in order next time.

 

[HRK]

I have read some reports that he (Davis) had established some contact with members of the taleban.

Can somebody confirm this, or is it a mere theory?

I read the same in news papers

 

[AstanoshKhan]

I have read some reports that he (Davis) had established some contact with members of the taleban.

Can somebody confirm this, or is it a mere theory?

There you go...

Detained US official ‘in telephone contact with terrorist groups’

By Rob Crilly, Islamabad 4:54PM GMT 10 Feb 2011

A US official, detained in Pakistan after shooting dead two men, had made contact with Taliban-linked extremists in the country’s lawless, tribal region, according to details of phone records leaked by the police.

Sources close to the investigation said Raymond Davis, 36, had made a series of telephone calls to South Waziristan, a tribal area along the border with Afghanistan synonymous with militant activity.

The mystery surrounding Davis has deepened since he was arrested in Lahore two weeks ago. He has told police officers he shot dead two men in self defence.

The US insists he is a diplomat based at the embassy in Islamabad and should be granted immunity.

However, security sources have leaked a series of details suggesting that he may have had a clandestine role.

“His phone records clearly show he was in contact with Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, for what reason we can only speculate,” said a police officer, referring to a terrorist group with close links to the Pakistani Taliban.

Hamid Gul, a former head of Pakistan’s spy agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence directorate, said the phone calls suggested he was a secret agent.

“This is a classic intelligence technique – to get inside the head of the enemy,” he said.

Davis, who is due to appear in court on Friday, is a former special forces soldier who left the US army in 2003 after 10 years of service, according to Pentagon records.

Mobile phone footage obtained by the Dunya TV channel shows him pleading for the return of his passport shortly after his arrest.

“I need to tell the embassy where I am at,” he said, during a confused interrogation as police officers interrupt and laugh in the background.

He went on to tell them that he was working at the US consulate in Lahore “I just work as a consultant there, with the [Regional Affairs Office],” he said.

His arrest is deeply embarrassing to the governments of both Pakistan and the US, which has suspended some high-level talks in order to increase pressure on Islamabad.

Source: The Telegraph

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I thought the U.S. declared taleban an enemy (and a terrorist group)?

if accurate, that's just a tad bit bizarre.

 

[Solomon2]

Obama's opinions means squat to us. American justice system means squat to us.

Sounds like a lot of Pakistanis badly need education on these issues.

We have actual evidence of guilt -

No, you don't. The killings qualify as a "grave crime" only if the intent of murder can be proved. The police immediately on the scene did not believe this was the case. At this point Davis, whether he had full diplomatic immunity or the weaker "consular" type, should have been released while a police investigation continued without him. If Davis has full immunity he should be sent home. If he has the "consular" sort he is supposed to remain out of prison until a final determination of the case is made.

However, it seems likely Davis has the full immunity usually granted to security men. Hasn't anybody interviewed his Pakistani counterparts in the U.S.? I imagine they have the same level of immunity. Nothing unusual there.

Based on what happened after the Mumbai attack, I put much more faith in the initial police reports than a politicized investigation. After Mumbai Pakistani police quickly found the home village and family of the surviving gunman, but were then ordered to suppress that information for many months. link On what grounds do high-ranking law enforcement officials possess greater credibility now than they did then?

...we have no presentation of immunity papers from the Pakistani FO -

Yes, they have dithered. It is against international law but the FO is doing so. I suppose that after Tasser's popular murder every official is afraid to do something unpopular among the armed and angry folk.

- we have only demanded he go to trial, and expose all these hair brained theories of ours as false and uphold the truth, justice and American way!

Sounds to me like you've already convicted him and a sentence of nothing less than death will satisfy you.

If your man is immune, then present those papers. If your man is innocent then fight in court.

Under international law the U.S. isn't supposed to present papers to a Pakistani court but to the FO. The FO then intervenes. This, the FO is afraid to do.

It doesn't surprise me so much. How many Pakistani officials are willing to take an unpopular stand merely out of moral and legal concerns?

 

[Solomon2]

And read the Pakistani law that states that the determination of immunity rests with the federal government.

That seems to conflict with the 1961 Vienna Convention which makes the FO alone the judge of such matters. Reference, please.

 

[AstanoshKhan]

I thought the U.S. declared taleban an enemy (and a terrorist group)?

that's just a tad bit bizarre.

I'm quite young and not matured enough but one thing i've learned so far that in todays world "reality and appearance is always opposite to each other'' and the case of Taleban/Alqaeda is one such good example. Thanks to RAD and his arrogance, this just put a confirmation stamp on it. Bravo RAD

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Even if a diplomat didn't follow proper procedure, he retains his immunity and therefore the proper venue for his offense is the court of the country who sent him, not court of the country where the deed was committed. All the host country can do is expel him.

That is correct, though the question of blanket diplomatic immunity in the case of Raymond Davis continues to be unanswered.

However, this brings up a related point. Pakistani law enforcement stopped US and other Western diplomats several times over the last year or two when they were traveling in areas they were not authorized to be in, and carrying weapons they were not authorized to carry. The GoP ordered the release of the individuals involved in these cases with absolutely no consequences for the diplomats and missions concerned - and by consequences I am referring to expulsion of the concerned individuals, and perhaps even the head of the missions (if the incidents did not cease) to send a message that such flagrant violations of Pakistani laws and procedures would not be tolerated.

Had the above been done when these cases were coming to light in the past year or so, we might not have had 'Raymond Davis' roaming around in an unauthorized area, illegally carrying weapons. For this we only have our wonderful Zardari/PPP led government to blame. As the article I posted earlier indicates, not only did the Zardari government allow all these 'diplomats' caught committing illegal acts off the hook, it further facilitated the issuance of visas without the correct background checks or vetting of individuals concerned.

Zardari and his coterie of PPP sycophants deserve a lot of the blame here.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I strongly doubt that's the case, since the initial police report said it was self-defense. The police cover-up claiming "murder" came later.

I am not sure which police report you are referring to, since the only official 'Initial Police Report' I can locate states the following:

Police investigators into the double murder case of American killer Raymond Davis have submitted their initial report to the Punjab government, on Friday. According to government sources the investigators did not find the US killer's claim of self-defence convincing. Instead, the investigators see his act as an excessive and disproportionate use of force, which is not covered in the definition of self-defence as per the law of the land. It also added that the US Consulate is mum over the driver and the vehicle that crushed Amadur Rehman.​

Police investogators submit initial report in Raymond case to Govt | Pakistan News | Onepakistan.com

No joke. Wrongful imprisonment is a serious matter, especially to Mr. Davis. Eventually he or his estate will be able to seize Pakistani government property in the U.S. to meet a court-ordered settlement - and the longer Davis is in prison, the more property that will cost Pakistan.

Hogwash - if 'wrongful imprisonment' was really a serious matter, then we would not have seen the following decision from US courts, pushed and supported by the US government, on far, far worse treatment meted out to an individual at the hands of the United States:

The U.S. Supreme Court declined Monday to review the dismissal of a lawsuit brought against the government by a Canadian citizen who, under suspicion of being connected to Al Qaeda, was sent by U.S. authorities to be tortured in Syria.

The rejection likely marks the end of Maher Arar’s chances of getting redress from the federal government for an egregious decision made by the Bush administration. The U.S. stonewalling of Arar’s search for justice has continued under the Obama administration, which argues that the doctrine of “State Secrets” precludes allowing any judge to review the materials that led John Ashcroft’s Justice Department to send Arar to Syria.

Arar was detained in the United States on a stopover at JFK on his way back to Canada from a family vacation in Tunis. After being held for 12 days, he was sent to Syria, the country of his birth, where he was imprisoned for almost a year. The Bush administration ignored his protests that he would be tortured there.

Arar was held in Syria for 10 and a half months in a cell measuring 3 feet by 6 feet by 7 feet, and was tortured with steel cables.

Upon his release, Arar sued Bush’s Justice Department, but his lawsuit was rejected by a succession of U.S. courts, in part out of deference to the executive branch’s claim that national security would be harmed by allowing a federal judge to review the relevant evidence. That’s a common legal maneuver that was used frequently by the Bush administration, and which Obama pledged to use less often. So far, those promises have been proven to be empty.​

Supreme Court Rejects Case of Tortured Canadian | Threat Level | Wired.com

One set of laws for Americans, and another set for the rest, especially Muslims.