rampant extortion in KPK

[Shahmir]

I do not believe in tribal divisions, tribal nationalisms.....i believe in one pashtun qaum. Our biggest shortcoming is tribal divisions and disunity, I am pashtunist not marwatist.
In 20th and 21st century were supposed to grow into a nation. But we didnt, and as you can see we are in miserable state. When i see pashtuns in such state, khushal khan khattak's poetry echoes in my ear. We saw a glimpse of pashtun unity during ahmad shah baba period and then we lost it.
@ghoul pashtuns were elites and landowners of punjab even during delhi sultanates. During tuqhlaq dynasty, jagirs of hundred villages called saheh were given to pashtuns and mongol converts in punjab and rest of india. Read full article here
History of Pashtuns: Tughlaq dynasty and Afghans
It were mughals who removed pashtuns from rule of punjab and allowed your rajas, ghakkars etc to prosper.

Not everyone among pashtuns will be in agreement with you on that. Some people are by nature very clannish and view people of other clans speaking same language also as aliens to them. You believe in one pashtun qaum but you cannot make every pashtun in this world to follow you and your wishes, people have individual characters.

@ghoul pashtuns were elites and landowners of punjab even during delhi sultanates. During tuqhlaq dynasty, jagirs of hundred villages called sadeh were given to pashtuns and mongol converts in punjab and rest of india. Read full article here
History of Pashtuns: Tughlaq dynasty and Afghans
It were mughals who removed pashtuns from rule of punjab and allowed your rajas, ghakkars etc to prosper.
And check gazetter of attock 1901, pashtuns (then numbering 38 thousands) were already settled two centuries ago before 1901. Attock was under various pashtun tribes before mughals.

This could be true, I believe the current land holdings and local power structures in punjab owe to Moghuls and later on to British. I have recently found that Mughals (the moronic mongols) also destroyed the society of kashmiri people after which it could never recover. Mughals were destructive people not constructive ones. I never understand why people give so much importance to them, they were just doing their dirty work like any other opportunist invaders, I am myself also part of that brigade who often uses mughal empire to establish muslim supermacy over hindu baniyas but that is for fun only in my case as otherwise in real life I have no love for anything called mughal shughal.

 

[ghoul]

I do not believe in tribal divisions, tribal nationalisms.....i believe in one pashtun qaum. Our biggest shortcoming is tribal divisions and disunity, I am pashtunist not marwatist.
In 20th and 21st century were supposed to grow into a nation. But we didnt, and as you can see we are in miserable state. When i see pashtuns in such state, khushal khan khattak's poetry echoes in my ear. We saw a glimpse of pashtun unity during ahmad shah baba period and then we lost it.
@ghoul pashtuns were elites and landowners of punjab even during delhi sultanates. During tuqhlaq dynasty, jagirs of hundred villages called saheh were given to pashtuns and mongol converts in punjab and rest of india. Read full article here
History of Pashtuns: Tughlaq dynasty and Afghans
It were mughals who removed pashtuns from rule of punjab and allowed your rajas, ghakkars etc to prosper.

Maybe in Delhi region they had, but I highly doubt them having numerous jagirs in Punjab during that period. You see, no Delhi sultan could ever exert his control on homeland of Gakhars or rajas(northern punjab). Balban went in to punish Khokhars, but stopped at the base of salt range as he didn't want to confront a "Raepal", the local king. During Tughlaq dynasty, Pakhtun jagirs in Punjab would mean certain death as almost whole Punjab was overran by rampaging Khokhar bands. In the chaos following Timur's invasion, Khokhars sacked and burnt Lahore to the ground.

And get your facts right. When Babur showed up, Janjua and Gakhars were already local rulers with proper armoured armies. Babur had a small fight with Gakhars too. Potohar has never seen outsiders as rulers. Only in Kasur and Mankera is there any evidence of Pakhtuns ruling over Punjabis.

I'm not denying Pakhtun bravery, and they did find success in central India as Pindaris and in Multan at the backing of Afghan state, but their hamsaye like Jhang Sial, Tiwana, Gakhars and Janjuas were never wearing bangles. Haha.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Not everyone among pashtuns will be in agreement with you on that. Some people are by nature very clannish and view people of other clans speaking same language also as aliens to them. You believe in one pashtun qaum but you cannot make every pashtun in this world to follow you and your wishes, people have individual characters.



This could be true, I believe the current land holdings and local power structures in punjab owe to Moghuls and later on to British. I have recently found that Mughals (the moronic mongols) also destroyed kashmir after which it could never recover. Mughals were are destructive people not constructive ones. I never understand why people give so much importance to them, they were just doing their dirty work like any other opportunist invaders.

I agree with you, ofcourse i am not fascist and i respect the different ideologies and choices of pashtuns (as long as they are not against interests of pashtun qaum. I am supporter of mainstream party like PTI as i believe they are better for us. I was once supporter of ANP, but i realized they are trash and useless people....

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Maybe in Delhi region they had, but I highly doubt them having numerous jagirs in Punjab during that period. You see, no Delhi sultan could ever exert his control on homeland of Gakhars or rajas(northern punjab). Balban went in to punish Khokhars, but stopped at the base of salt range as he didn't want to confront a "Raepal", the local king. During Tughlaq dynasty, Pakhtun jagirs in Punjab would mean certain death as almost whole Punjab was overran by rampaging Khokhar bands. In the chaos following Timur's invasion, Khokhars sacked and burnt Lahore to the ground.

And get your facts right. When Babur showed up, Janjua and Gakhars were already local rulers with proper armoured armies. Babur had a small fight with Gakhars too. Potohar has never seen outsiders as rulers. Only in Kasur and Mankera is there any evidence of Pakhtuns ruling over Punjabis.

I'm not denying Pakhtun bravery, and they did find success in central India as Pindaris and in Multan at the backing of Afghan state, but their hamsaye like Jhang Sial, Tiwana, Gakhars and Janjuas were never wearing bangles. Haha.

When i say punjab, i mean entire east and west punjab. Kasur was jagir given by mughals and mankera was of later period during ranjeet singh times. There were numerous states and jagirs of pashtuns , not only in punjab but all over india. Just today i was searching and i found out that miyana pashtuns who accompanied army of amir timur during invasion of india, got positions during subsequent afghan rule and were able to establish a state for themeselves in karnataka during mughal period. Which was later reduced by tipu sultan and marathas and survived as princely state upto 1947, savanur.
If some exensive research is done, we might find some interesting revelations. Khokhars etc were hindus at that time and they were against muslim rule of delhi. So the obvious choice would be to place muslim nobility over them which could be turk, afghan, khorasani, persians etc. If hindus of punjab resisted, they were also tempted to favours of the foriegn rulers.

 

[ghoul]

When i say punjab, i mean entire east and west punjab. Kasur was jagir given by mughals and mankera was of later period during ranjeet singh times. There were numerous states and jagirs of pashtuns , not only in punjab but all over india. Just today i was searching and i found out that miyana pashtuns who accompanied army of amir timur during invasion of india, got positions during subsequent afghan rule and were able to establish a state for themeselves in karnataka during mughal period. Which was later reduced by tipu sultan and marathas and survived as princely state upto 1947, savanur.
If some exensive research is done, we might find some interesting revelations. Khokhars etc were hindus at that time and they were against muslim rule of delhi. So the obvious choice would be to place muslim nobility over them which could be turk, afghan, khorasani, persians etc. If hindus of punjab resisted, they were also tempted to favours of the foriegn rulers.

Didn't know Delhi sultanate ever went up till South India. I thought south India remained untouched until Aurangzeb. As for the Khokhars, they might have converted to Islam as they sided with Shah Khwarezm against Genghis Khan. And they were too ballsy to be ruled. Heck, they even resisted Timur when he made most state heads piss themselves in fear. They had a clash with Timur on Beas. And it's mere speculation if Pakhtun jagirs existed in their insurgency hit areas. I mean they were present all over Punjab and even Sindh during sultanate period. After Timur's invasion, they burnt Lahore and tried to burn Delhi, but failed there.

Timur, even though a mass murderer is an admirable personality. The Europeans prayed to God to be spared his wrath. All in all, Turkic nomads, Mamluks and mongols have been the best warriors arguably in the history of the world. I heard Uzbeks are quite ferocious warrior. Do they have a reputation in Afghanistan?

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

@ghoul pindaris is late phenomena , they were pashtun dacoits led by karim khan , chitu khan etc who served as auxillary forces of marathas. They used to raid malwa as well as rajasthan. They were powerful but were not allowed by marathas to settle as jagirdars. You are giving example of raiders to me, when there is example of nearby tonk, a powerful state in rajputana established by a yousafzai , amir khan. Lets not go beyond punjab, as you would be surprised to hear the extent of pashtun rule there. Pashtuns have ruled regions from azerbaijan to northren burma.

 

[ghoul]

@ghoul pindaris is late phenomena , they were pashtun dacoits led by karim khan , chitu khan etc who served as auxillary forces of marathas. They used to raid malwa as well as rajasthan. They were powerful but were not allowed by marathas to settle as jagirdars. You are giving example of raiders to me, when there is example of nearby tonk, a powerful state in rajputana established by a yousafzai , amir khan. Lets not go beyond punjab, as you would be surprised to hear the extent of pashtun rule there. Pashtuns have ruled regions from azerbaijan to northren burma.

Bhopal was also a Pashtun princely state.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Didn't know Delhi sultanate ever went up till South India. I thought south India remained untouched until Aurangzeb. As for the Khokhars, they might have converted to Islam as they sided with Shah Khwarezm against Genghis Khan. And they were too ballsy to be ruled. Heck, they even resisted Timur when he made most state heads piss themselves in fear. They had a clash with Timur on Beas. And it's mere speculation if Pakhtun jagirs existed in their insurgency hit areas. I mean they were present all over Punjab and even Sindh during sultanate period. After Timur's invasion, they burnt Lahore and tried to burn Delhi, but failed there.

Timur, even though a mass murderer is an admirable personality. The Europeans prayed to God to be spared his wrath. All in all, Turkic nomads, Mamluks and mongols have been the best warriors arguably in the history of the world. I heard Uzbeks are quite ferocious warrior. Do they have a reputation in Afghanistan?

Tuqhlaqs extended their rule to south india, their Afghans soldiers and nobles at the end of their period were able to carve out bahmani sultanate in south india.
As for as ferocity of uzbeks is concerned, they are very fearless folk (and quite brutal) and i believe are tougher than pashtuns.
Hazaras on the other hand are not impressive like uzbeks even though they are also armed to teeth.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Bhopal was also a Pashtun princely state.

So was jonagadh under babee pashtuns who were controlling half of gujrat at one time but lost much territory to marathas. These pashtun states in rajputana, malwa and gujrat in 18th century were impressive as they were facing a largest empire of subcontinent at that time, maratha still they survived. Nadir shah invasion of india proved blessing for pashtuns and we were able to make fortunes for ourselves after two hundred years of strong mughal rule which prevented pashtun settlements in india.

 

[ghoul]

So was jonagadh under babee pashtuns who were controlling half of gujrat at one time but lost much territory to marathas. These pashtun states in rajputana, malwa and gujrat in 18th century were impressive as they were facing a largest empire of subcontinent at that time, maratha still they survived. Nadir shah invasion of india proved blessing for pashtuns and we were able to make fortunes for ourselves after two hundred years of strong mughal rule which prevented pashtun settlements in india.

The Bahmani sultanates were in Deccan and not really South India. Ironically, a lot of these sultanates and jagirs were supported by Marathas who extorted money from them. Some of them even fought on Marathas' behalf against Abdali. And Marathas became powerful indirectly due to Nadir Shah, who destroyed Mughal empire.

Mughals stopped them perhaps because of memories from Sher Shah's rule. Sher Shah and his son Islam couldn't pacify the Gakhars though. Ironically, he rather made Gakhars rich lol. According to the local folklore, the thekaydaar of Rohtas, Todar Mal Khatri paid an ashrafi per brick in Rohtas to Sarang. I have seen some Gakhar heirloom weapons and they look crazy. Sarang's son Kamal was used by Akbar to crush rebellions in Bajaur later on. Gakhars were only successfully crushed by a combined Sikh and Dogra attack, when Sikhs put all Gakhar chieftains and claimants in prison in Lahore.

As for the Uzbeks, I believe they are the main fighting force in ANA are they? And ironically, they have been ruled for the most part in the last 300 years by either Persians, Abdalis or Russians. Though I wouldn't expect them to be pacified completely, as was the case in the "ruled areas" of Potohar/AJK.

 

[mughal arslan shah mirza]

Didn't know Delhi sultanate ever went up till South India. I thought south India remained untouched until Aurangzeb. As for the Khokhars, they might have converted to Islam as they sided with Shah Khwarezm against Genghis Khan. And they were too ballsy to be ruled. Heck, they even resisted Timur when he made most state heads piss themselves in fear. They had a clash with Timur on Beas. And it's mere speculation if Pakhtun jagirs existed in their insurgency hit areas. I mean they were present all over Punjab and even Sindh during sultanate period. After Timur's invasion, they burnt Lahore and tried to burn Delhi, but failed there.

Timur, even though a mass murderer is an admirable personality. The Europeans prayed to God to be spared his wrath. All in all, Turkic nomads, Mamluks and mongols have been the best warriors arguably in the history of the world. I heard Uzbeks are quite ferocious warrior. Do they have a reputation in Afghanistan?

Interesting fact I read about the Khokhars is that there were Khokars serving in Hyder Ali ,Tiger of Mysore's army and valiantly defended against Maratha attacks against their army.
Before Mughals, parts of south India was pre-dominantly under Turkmen type migrant dynasties who were allied to certain factions in Delhi proper but already had sovereignty of sorts before the Mughals came . Check the Qutb-shahi in Golconda.
As far as Khokhars and Delhi is concerned, Khokars fought in Second Battle of Panipat just like Janjuas and Gakhars had fought in first battle of Panipat and Battle of Khanwa. It was actually Jasrath Khokar 's grandson who commanded his Khokhar contingent.Before the coming of Mughals, Sayyid dynasty of Delhi had tried to get Lahore and lands to the West of it but Lahore was under Khokhar rule at the time.
And yeah Khokhars were most likely muslims for a long while by now

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

The Bahmani sultanates were in Deccan and not really South India. Ironically, a lot of these sultanates and jagirs were supported by Marathas who extorted money from them. Some of them even fought on Marathas' behalf against Abdali. And Marathas became powerful indirectly due to Nadir Shah, who destroyed Mughal empire.

Mughals stopped them perhaps because of memories from Sher Shah's rule. Sher Shah and his son Islam couldn't pacify the Gakhars though. Ironically, he rather made Gakhars rich lol. According to the local folklore, the thekaydaar of Rohtas, Todar Mal Khatri paid an ashrafi per brick in Rohtas to Sarang. I have seen some Gakhar heirloom weapons and they look crazy. Sarang's son Kamal was used by Akbar to crush rebellions in Bajaur later on. Gakhars were only successfully crushed by a combined Sikh and Dogra attack, when Sikhs put all Gakhar chieftains and claimants in prison in Lahore.

As for the Uzbeks, I believe they are the main fighting force in ANA are they? And ironically, they have been ruled for the most part in the last 300 years by either Persians, Abdalis or Russians. Though I wouldn't expect them to be pacified completely, as was the case in the "ruled areas" of Potohar/AJK.

Interesting, but hard to believe that todar mal would be so stupid to pay a gold coin for a brick. Khawas khan, who was put in charge of rohtas fort, was a marwat. And i think the fort was built to keep in check humayun and kamran mirza, as well as their local supporters in potohar.
As for as pashtun rebellions in bajaur, tirah, yousafzai country against akbar are concerned, they proved very disastrous for mughal armies and got defeated, it was during aurangzeb times that mughals were able to establish military posts in swat. Akbar failed because he was facing ideological roshniya movement which gave trouble to mughals for 70 years from 1560 to 1633, shahjahan made peace with them and earned their support. Although ghakkars and others were loyal to mughals, i am surprised why they were not given role in rule like hindu rajputs ?
Uzbeks were fierce enemies of shia safavids, persians never ruled them. They infact terrorized persians and used to capture them and sold them as slaves. Babur and timurids were defeated several times and expelled them from central asia. Shahjahan and aurangzeb made attempts to conquer uzbekistan but failed with disastrous consequences. They were sunnis and reliable like afghans so nadir shah recruited them.
When russians came, they were as backward and underdeveloped as afghanistan (khiva , bukhara etc). They got easily defeated. Russians were unstoppable, they also captured Merv city of turkmenistan from afghans and a large territory west of amu, that also afghanistan lost to russia.
Perhaps uzbeks in 19th century were degenerated into some thing like bahadur shah zafar, mirza ghalib etc. It is documented that when dost mohammad khan fled to bukhara with young sons in first anglo-afghan war, he was given asylum by emir e bukhara. But dost muhammad got shocked when emir e bukhara expressed his desire that he want to sleep with his two beautiful kids. Dost muhammad fled from bukhara in the same night.

 

[ghoul]

Interesting, but hard to believe that todar mal would be so stupid to pay a gold coin for a brick. Khawas khan, who was put in charge of rohtas fort, was a marwat. And i think the fort was built to keep in check humayun and kamran mirza, as well as their local supporters in potohar.
As for as pashtun rebellions in bajaur, tirah, yousafzai country against akbar are concerned, they proved very disastrous for mughal armies and got defeated, it was during aurangzeb times that mughals were able to establish military posts in swat. Akbar failed because he was facing ideological roshniya movement which gave trouble to mughals for 70 years from 1560 to 1633, shahjahan made peace with them and earned their support. Although ghakkars and others were loyal to mughals, i am surprised why they were not given role in rule like hindu rajputs ?
Uzbeks were fierce enemies of shia safavids, persians never ruled them. They infact terrorized persians and used to capture them and sold them as slaves. Babur and timurids were defeated several times and expelled them from central asia. Shahjahan and aurangzeb made attempts to conquer uzbekistan but failed with disastrous consequences. They were sunnis and reliable like afghans so nadir shah recruited them.
When russians came, they were as backward and underdeveloped as afghanistan (khiva , bukhara etc). They got easily defeated. Russians were unstoppable, they also captured Merv city of turkmenistan from afghans and a large territory west of amu, that also afghanistan to russia.
Perhaps uzbeks in 19th century were degenerated into some thing like bahadur shah zafar, mirza ghalib etc. It is documented that when dost mohammad khan fled to bukhara with young songs in first anglo-afghan war, he was given asylum by emir e bukhara. But dost muhammad got shocked when emir e bukhara expressed his desire that he want to sleep with his two beautiful kids. Dost muhammad fled from bukhara in the same night.

Lol they were given the whole Potohar AJK region as a vassal state. They were entrusted with taxing the locals, which they had varying success at. They also served as generals and entrusted with raising soldiers for mughals' northern campaigns. Kamal Khan Gakhar was a general in Mughal army and sent to Bajaur from whence he returned successful. He also served in Panipat as a general and against the Miyana afghans. He was a celebrated noble in mughal court. For rest of the mughal period, Potohar remained peaceful but Gakhars assisted mughals in nearby campaigns.

And Todar Mal had a reason. You see, Gakhars managed to kill a large number of Afghans and sold their captured women and children into slavery according to Akbarnamah by Abu Fazl. They're also said to have killed hundreds of labourers. So it does make sense, that they were paid to be allowed Rohtas's construction. About Gakhars, Akbarnamah read: "courage and activity are implanted in the nature of the Gakhars"

And Khwas Khan of Rohtas was a mughal rather than a Marwat. And Akbar defeated all the Pakhtunkhwa rebellions. During his reign, Mughal empire was at its strongest.

The Janjuas were also allied with the mughals, and also entrusted with raising foot soldiers and horsemen. They gave tough to time to Ranjit Singh, particularly at Kusak fort in Choa Saiden Shah where they are said to have killed hundreds of Sikhs. They held on their own for some 6 months.

In summary, northern Punjab was always ruled by locals as was central Punjab, except Kasur. Most foreigners before the Sikhs got their arse kicked in North Punjab and their descendants got gharak from the world. Sarang's descendants are the famous Rajas of Haripur. Where are Sher Shah's descendants?

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

You are confusing with a mughal by name of khawas khan, i am talking about this one Khawas Khan Marwat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sher shah suri expelled all mughals from india , it would be absured if his most important general was a mughal. Niazis, marwats/lohanis and other tribes of lodhi confederation were pillars of suri empire, who themeselves were branch of lodhis.
Descendants of sher shah suri perhaps live in bihar. Hard to verify as mughal's conquering displaced most of the pashtuns towards bengal and deccen.
Akbar failed, yousafzais actually destroyed entire mughal armies. His birbal got killed by yousafzais. After that mughals retreated from yousafzai country and focused more on keeping peshawer-kabul route open. You conquer any territory when you recieve taxes from its population and establish military posts and forts there. Mughals didnt establish their rule on pashtun belt and only peshawer and kabul were in their possessions. Infact they had to bribe pashtun tribes to keep peshawer-kabul route open and remain peaceful else where. Even aurangzeb's armies got defeated from 1671 to 1676, at the end he was able to pacify pashtun tribes through bribes and gifts.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Sikhs in potohar-hazara region was truely defeated only once by pashtun mashwani tribe of haripur in battle of srikot 1824. Most of the sikh garrisson in srikot fort was killed and injured hari singh nalwa barely escaped with his life. Though sikhs returned with large force from attock and defeated mashwanis and their other supporters like tareenis and syed khanis.
Jadoons and tanolis got defeated by hari singh nalwa in 1821 in battle of mangal while swati tribe of manshera was defeated earlier in 1819 in battle of pakhli