Ramadan Kareem 2013

[Kompromat]

Sir when you are a Muslim you have to follow rules and state has to enforce many rules Sir because in Islam that is responsibility of state that ayat came for kafirs they can't be forced to convert to Islam but in Islamic state they also have to follow some rules Sir and Muslims to that is clear from Quran and Sunnah and life of Sahabas

I would respectfully disagree, in Islamic theology compulsion cannot be used as a tool for enforcing religion. Islam is nothing but an "idea" and no idea can be "enforced", and those ideas which are enforced don't last long, i-e Marxism,Communism etc

Quran describes itself as the book of guidance which is why Islam is an "Un-organized Religion" .... we don't have pope or a "figurehead". Sahaba,Taba tabein, interpreters of Hadith, Sufi scholars etc were not "a unilateral authority" but a "medium" between the message and audience. By taking organization and figureheads out of Islam, it has increased and appreciated individualism. That individualism is the core of thought process that allows Sufis to interpret Islamic theology through poetry and people like Iqbal to interpret it into a political ideology using poetry as a medium of expression.

I hope i made my point.

Best regards

 

[Zarvan]

I would respectfully disagree, in Islamic theology compulsion cannot be used as a tool for enforcing religion. Islam is nothing but an "idea" and no idea can be "enforced", and those ideas which are enforced don't last long, i-e Marxism,Communism etc

Quran describes itself as the book of guidance which is why Islam is an "Un-organized Religion" .... we don't have pope or a "figurehead". Sahaba,Taba tabein, interpreters of Hadith, Sufi scholars etc were not "a unilateral authority" but a "medium" between the message and audience. By taking organization and figureheads out of Islam, it has increased and appreciated individualism. That individualism is the core of thought process that allows Sufis to interpret Islamic theology through poetry and people like Iqbal to interpret it into a political ideology using poetry as a medium of expression.

I hope i made my point.

Best regards

No Sir Islam is nothing but a complete system Sir it has laws and regulations for everything which mostly government has to enforce form How to worship to do trade and run government and laws of crime and in some cases also evidence collection and social life it has laws and regulations for everything which in most cases Sir it is government which has to enforce them Sir that is clear from Quran and Sunnah and life of Sahabas

 

[L@eeq]

har banda uth k apni tashreh kar deta hai islam ke. apny ghar ka mazhab banaya howa hai islam ko. point of view k name par apny ap ko tasali deny waly. apny ideas dosron par musalat karty howy yeh bat nahi sochty jab islam ke bari aati hai tab yad aata hai k islam ko force nahi karna.
jab k islam to bilkul practical bhe hai aur Quran or sunnat say bhe jis tarah sabit hai. laikin bajaye Quran aur hadith parhny k apni tashreh kar dety hain.

 

[Kompromat]

No Sir Islam is nothing but a complete system

And what does this complete system come from? , What i stated is that all systems in world history were/are in effect a "set of ideas". Those who choose to follow those ideas are called followers or adherents. Islam is not the only system of life in the world, its one of them and it is also a "set of ideas". How those ideas came into affect can vary between human invention and revelation from God.

Sir it has laws and regulations for everything which mostly government has to enforce form How to worship to do trade and run government and laws of crime and in some cases also evidence collection and social life it has laws and regulations for everything which in most cases Sir it is government which has to enforce them Sir that is clear from Quran and Sunnah and life of Sahabas

Even Though i agree, that social and communal aspects of a certain way of life not just Islamic way of life needs a governance structure. My problem with it is that i don't buy the idea of "enforcing" as in "making people do it". This is what i find misunderstood about Islam "as if you are having to enforce Islam" on people you are doing a pathetic job at sharing and explaining its ideals to the population of that country who otherwise will follow the same advice as per their free will.

 

[Zarvan]

And what does this complete system come from? , What i stated is that all systems in world history were/are in effect a "set of ideas". Those who choose to follow those ideas are called followers or adherents. Islam is not the only system of life in the world, its one of them and it is also a "set of ideas". How those ideas came into affect can vary between human invention and revelation from God.



Even Though i agree, that social and communal aspects of a certain way of life not just Islamic way of life needs a governance structure. My problem with it is that i don't buy the idea of "enforcing" as in "making people do it". This is what i find misunderstood about Islam "as if you are having to enforce Islam" on people you are doing a pathetic job at sharing and explaining its ideals to the population of that country who otherwise will follow the same advice as per their free will.

Sir this system came from ALLAH which Muslims have to enforce and ALLAH has said clearly those who don't decide according to what ALLAH has revealed they are the kafirs sir laws and orders of Islam are clear and Muslims have to enforce them Sir that is their duty which me you and all Muslims have to do and Islam has laws for everything from worship to trade to crime to social life to economy everything Sir and these laws have to be enforces every government has to enforce laws Sir that is common sense and ALLAH has told laws which need to be enforced by governments Sir other wise people will rise up and do it on their own than you have groups like Taliban which in many cases go on extreme

 

[Kompromat]

Sir this system came from ALLAH which Muslims have to enforce and ALLAH has said clearly those who don't decide according to what ALLAH has revealed they are the kafirs sir laws and orders of Islam are clear and Muslims have to enforce them Sir that is their duty which me you and all Muslims have to do and Islam has laws for everything from worship to trade to crime to social life to economy everything Sir and these laws have to be enforces every government has to enforce laws Sir that is common sense and ALLAH has told laws which need to be enforced by governments Sir other wise people will rise up and do it on their own than you have groups like Taliban which in many cases go on extreme

You see this is where you and i have a difference of opinion. Even Though what you said is correct, but i believe that Islam is not going to be enforced especially by those trying to do it using violence as a tool. It can not be enforced but it can be established, how ...is an interesting question .

 

[L@eeq]

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL: Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

surah tauba.

 

[Zarvan]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10151538079545098

 

[Zarvan]

 

[Zarvan]

 

[Zarvan]

my stomach is not well right now make dual everyone

 

[Leader]

 

[Armstrong]

I am trying to follow this routine

Tafseer-e-Siddiqui.. with Three Ayat daily
Memorizing Three Hadiath daily(most hadiath are one or two lines so it hasnt been too difficult)
and a chapter of the prophets life.. Ive finished one seerat.. so will repeat so for another to get multiple views.

Oscar why not learn Classical Arabic first & explore the Koran from every conceivable angle by appreciating what the meanings & implications of a word or a verse in the Holy Koran would be by understanding the nuances of the language it is written in & their historical context !

On the Hadith bit - What would you say if I were to make the observation that the first known collection of Hadith (one of the Sahih-al-Sitta), unless I'm mistaken, dates from around 197 After Hijri - Thats easily a 100 + Years after the Prophet (PBUH)'s death ! Furthermore we do know of countless attempts (some successful..others not) of deliberate fabrications of the Ahadith throughout Muslim History.

Even though I'm a Sunni of Hanafi Fiqh, like most Pakistanis, of late I've been drawn to the Koranist School of Thought - the ones who reject Hadith altogether & only try to find the answers in the Koran & the Koran Alone ! Naturally the simplicity of that & the rationale behind it appealed to me but at the same time what I found most irrational was the notion of how one may interrupt the Koran anyway one pleases without any Prophetic context to it ! Therefore what would you say if I said that maybe both we - the Sunnis & Shias & they - the Koranists, are missing the point here; Hadith should neither be rejected altogether, as if we don't need them or that because there are fabrications there & so they'd all be tainted in one way or the other, nor should they be elevated to such a level that we find ourselves utterly bogged down in them. What if we should just treat Hadith, less as a matter of Faith & more a matter of 'History' in that we employ the tools that Historians employ to determine what the Prophet (PBUH) might have said or done at a particular point in time just as Historians tell us what Julius Ceaser or Pompeii said at the floor of the Roman Senate at a particular point in time. Consequently we afford the same 'doubts' & the same 'stringent' criterion that we employ to any other Historical Evidence & instead of making the Prophet (PBUH) 's purported words out to be, perhaps unconsciously, 'another source of Divine Instructions' we treat it as a part of 'Historical Narrative' that may or may not be 'correct' given the same doubt, the same respect & the same 'authority', if we may, as the one given to any other 'Historical Narrative' whether it, allegedly, comes out of the mouth of a Prophet or (say!) a General/Politician from the Antiquity Era ! Which is not to say that I'm somehow advocating the Prophet (PBUH) 's stature & the respect that he holds in our hearts is the same as that of any other Historical Figure & that we value his words & the words of another on parity but that it is impossible to tell whether the Prophet (PBUH) actually did utter those words & did the said things, at a particular point in time, as is being purported or alleged simply because of the inherent deficiencies in determining most things 'Historical' !

I would imagine that maybe such a view could be our salvation out of this incessant Sunni-Shia BS with each side bringing their religious scholars, their own narration of the Hadith & their own world-view that they've developed from the aforementioned two, to advocate the 'righteousness' of their conviction when compared with the other ! Because even when it comes to Shias & Sunnis...we've got dozens of sects within these sects who've engaged in this fruitless competition for 1400 years.

What if we're able to give more currency to the Koran & less legitimacy to the Ahadith as some sort of an infallible source of Islamic Knowledge ? But instead treat the Ahadith as one treats any other 'Historical' piece of evidence - Something that could or couldn't be correct & there isn't a need to assume, at lest unconsciously, that the Prophet (PBUH) came with multiple 'Words of God' instead of the One Book that we all have in common.

I'd like your thoughts too @Talon @Developereo @Hyperion @LoveIcon @RazPaK @Secur @niaz @DESERT FIGHTER @Chak Bamu @Areesh @Abu Zolfiqar @mafiya @chauvunist @Rafi @darkinsky @HAIDER @Raja.Pakistani @Spring Onion @TaimiKhan @Pakistanisage @Aeronaut @RazorMC @Marshmallow @cb4

 

[Patriots]

 

[Patriots]