Rafales are 'overhyped', Rafale is no 'game-changer' - Former indian airforce Air Vice Marshal

[denel]

But Peri-Peri is God's medicine!

You are right though, I was watching the current saga unfolding in india with one of their actresses on an Indian news channel, and the reporting and media standards in India are seriously lacking.
They can spin anything, but the most scary part is that a majority of Indians buy into the narrative.

yes... it is god's medicine . I grow it by tonnes.

 

[Tair-Lahoti]

Old news but still relevant.....Hope Indian will understand before getting shot down by PLAAF or PAF.


Rafale can be shot down like 'mosquitoes by Chinese-made Sukhoi': Russian envoy

Rafale can be shot down like 'mosquitoes by Chinese-made Sukhoi': Russian envoy

Indirectly expressing his country's surprise over the Indian Government and its defence establishment's decision to go ahead with its reported plan to buy 126 Rafale combat aircraft from France, Russia's Ambassador to India, Alexander M. Kadakin, said the Dassault Aviation-manufactured fighter...

www.business-standard.com

 

[Pandora]

Anyone who thinks the Rafale is a stealth fighter should not even be in a military forum.

There is no such thing as semi stealth. It is either stealthy or just a normal fighter jet. Indians have a habit of branding garbage as gold.

 

[Xerxes22]

View attachment 668687

Rafale has the lowest RCS in South Asia
The best most lethal BVR in Meteore
The best HMD in dash 5 from
The most advanced crystal blade next generation twin engines
THE MOST advanced EW suite in spectra

So yes RAFALE x 4 planes

4 mirage2000-5
View attachment 668689


& 8 su30 mki



View attachment 668690

WILL BE DEADLY PACKAGE OF 16 FIGHTERS

one WORD WOW

If you think this has any chance against the coming batch of the 5th gen stealth fighters with BVR that tens of other nations will soon get then you are truly deluded and handicapped.

 

[My-Analogous]

Well one thing is sure, IAF was capable enough to go deep inside Pakistan and drop bombs without any resistance from PAF.
Hence rafael adds to these capabilities rather than being a paradigm shift in capabilities.

Replace Mig 21s with Rafaels ASAP...!!

What happened to your mighty 6th Gen SU30MKI batter then any Russian fighter?

 

[MilSpec]

One thing internet Indians won't understand is that even if you were tomorrow given F-35s and we had to respond with F-7s and Mirages, you might have in that case a huge tactical superiority, but your provocation would still not go answered, nor would you be immune to the consequences we decide to exact from you. But that is even if the situation was way more lop-sided, unfortunately for you, it isn't.

Indian air force came in the early hours of the morning in darkness, launched their SOWs from some distance, used diversionary tactics in other sectors. Granted then, India can target Pakistan with standoff weapons and conduct some degree of incursions and probing. But this confident fantasy of dominating our skies, deeper incursions into our airspace without being intercepted, is ill-founded.

In response to your strike. We entered your airspace, used SOWs and captured strike footage, we suppressed your local air defenses and shot down your interceptors. Our display was also undoubtedly more impressive. Both airforces displayed the capability to strike deep into enemy territory. Nothing has changed.

No doubt your reading is accurate.
But for Indian standards, it's definitely different based on the precedent it had set for itself in aftermath of terror attacks in India emanating from Pakistan. The IAF launched a mission vs Foreign Office issuing dossiers was the big change in attitude.

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

Well one thing is sure, IAF was capable enough to go deep inside Pakistan and drop bombs without any resistance from PAF.
Hence rafael adds to these capabilities rather than being a paradigm shift in capabilities.

Replace Mig 21s with Rafaels ASAP...!!

The word "deep" is wrong.
They just came 3-5 km inside and ran away.

 

[Jungibaaz]

No doubt your reading is accurate.
But for Indian standards, it's definitely different based on the precedent it had set for itself in aftermath of terror attacks in India emanating from Pakistan. The IAF launched a mission vs Foreign Office issuing dossiers was the big change in attitude.

I think that was attempted, but only partially achieved. And definitely while some new precedence has been set, IMO it failed to achieve the desired level. The way I see it, the strike was perhaps worth the internal political points, but failed to exact any real cost out of Pakistan. There was an idea floating about in previous years that India had built a huge economic, diplomatic, military edge against us, and that the latter was not just scale, but also in tech. Hence surgical strike, punitive actions against the state of Pakistan could be taken unilaterally at a whim. In the same way Israel might for example strike some place in Syria whenever it wishes. This was a delusion that was going to face reality one day or another.

Instead what we had was a raid that arguably didn't achieve the desired results. And a follow up counter by Pakistan that not only restored parity, in my view it also dispelled any notions of a huge Indian edge, while also allowing Pakistan a great political and propaganda victory at Indian expense. I don't think anyone in India expected that sort of retaliation from us. I'm not boasting here, it's that we had no choice, and we could not afford to allow a new precedence to be set.

In fact, so much so is this the case, the days after 27th Feb, nobody in Pakistan was worried that this is now the new normal or that all future attacks in India will cause them to lash out at us, instead we were worried about direct escalation by Indian motivation to settle the score given how badly that event turned out.

As for whether indeed a new precedent has been set, we'll find out in coming years I imagine. Only three years had elapsed between the last two strikes.

Also, I just want to add one comment that I think is pertinent. I think Indian surgical strike policy has far less to do with the military disparity or any perceived ascendancy in capabilities, if the perception was there before 27th Feb, I don't think it's there any more. Instead I think the main cause of this policy is a shift in internal Indian politics, power projection intended to placate voters. From your perspective, the positive take-away was that your government put their interests first and stood up to us with more than just words. This has serious signalling effects that need to be acknowledged, but the utility beyond that is debatable.

 

[MilSpec]

I think that was attempted, but only partially achieved. And definitely while some new precedence has been set, IMO it failed to achieve the desired level. The way I see it, the strike was perhaps worth the internal political points, but failed to exact any real cost out of Pakistan. There was an idea floating about in previous years that India had built a huge economic, diplomatic, military edge against us, and that the latter was not just scale, but also in tech. Hence surgical strike, punitive actions against the state of Pakistan could be taken unilaterally at a whim. In the same way Israel might for example strike some place in Syria whenever it wishes. This was a delusion that was going to face reality one day or another.

Instead what we had was a raid that arguably didn't achieve the desired results. And a follow up counter by Pakistan that not only restored parity, in my view it also dispelled any notions of a huge Indian edge, while also allowing Pakistan a great political and propaganda victory at Indian expense. I don't think anyone in India expected that sort of retaliation from us. I'm not boasting here, it's that we had no choice, and we could not afford to allow a new precedence to be set.

In fact, so much so is this the case, the days after 27th Feb, nobody in Pakistan was worried that this is now the new normal or that all future attacks in India will cause them to lash out at us, instead we were worried by Indian motivation to settle the score given how badly last years event turned out.

As for whether indeed a new precedent has been set, we'll find out in coming years I imagine. Only three years had elapsed between the last two strikes.

Also, I just want to add one comment that I think is pertinent. I think Indian surgical strike policy has far less to do with the military disparity or any perceived ascendancy in capabilities, if the perception was there before 27th Feb, I don't think it's there any more. Instead I think the main cause of this policy is internal Indian politics, power projection intended to placate voters. From your perspective, the positive here is that your government put their interests first and stood up to us with more than just words. This has serious signalling effects that need to be acknowledged, but the utility beyond that is debatable.

I wish this could have been an one on one conversation, regardless, respectfully I am not going to respond to others .

I have been out of military circles for a while so I don't have any firsthand knowledge of what went down.

Few things that have bothered me were
1> Lack of BDA, using Spice kits, all the while we had KH59 Kingbolt with inherent BDA perplexed me.
2> MKI's conundrum as mentioned by Kaiser Tufail, I am not sure IAF was open to fire on solutions beyond the border, given we did not do that even during Kargil, when I from firsthand source know we have positive locks on Phazatrons, with R27ET's.
3>R77's and Bars N011M, I have been a proponent of upgrading to K77M and K77ME or atleast the RVV-PD for long but IAF did not pay heed. With Astra I/II no way near full induction and MBDA's flat refusal to work on Meteor for MKI, IAF for a stop-gap should have at least picked up the Derby ER, but they did not. So it's going to be a big question for now if indeed my point above was invalid and KT is right, then we have a big chink in the armor.

Strategic implications, its effects, new redlines and it's effects on internal politics as you have mentioned so well, unfortunately, I am not qualified to speak on. As of now, I remain a mere spectator to see how things unfold.


Just fyi, for the foul-mouthed morons on the thread that keep talking about raptor of the east, the monicker was for termed for it's Vectored thrust Slow Speed Manuverbilty and not it's Invincibility....

 

[Basel]

If Rafale was truly a game-changer all notable air forces around the world would be buying them left and right. Rafale was ignored for a very long while by many air forces. It is very expensive and the French aren't the most reliable. Recently it has had some success with Middle Eastern countries and India.

When PAF evaluated Rafale back in Mush time it even didnt had several capabilties which back then F-16 block-50/52 offered that is also one of many reasons PAF went for F-16 block-50/52 so now one can imagine where F-16 block-70/72 should be compared to Rafales and what LM can offer to its customers if one want a customize version.

 

[maverick1977]

Any fighter in Indian hands is bound to fail.

Thats the crux of the problem. Historically any aircraft given to India has been an utter failure, 1965 the best aircrafts in IAF got a beating from an under powered F86 ... sad state of IAF capabilities

 

[drunken-monke]

Just an Indian wish.

Dear Half Moon,

Fighter jets are very sophisticated equipment and I believe you know it very well. Letting others know all its technical specs and tricks may hamper the user very unpleasantly. Qatar Air force is small, but a potent one and any modern air-force works on SOPs. They wont gonna disclose or let other get a detailed info of their toys. A small peak on to the jet or photo-shoot won't compromise Fighter jets capabilities..
However, if you have details of PAF accessing Rafael, i would appreciate if you could share the same. Till then its just a speculation..

 

[Saahir Malik]

History is witness thaT PAF has always beaten IAF.i want to mention here some of the important things which happened on 27th feb 2019.in the middle of night IAF entered pak air space with intention to destroy some so called militant training camps.PAF intercepted them & challenged them which IAF didn't accept & threw their payload on forests killing some crows & disturbed ecological balance of that area by eliminating some trees.
On the same morning mr Asif gafoor briefed the press of IAF incursion,but at the last moment of the press briefing he also said we have planned a surprise for India inshallah we ill soon execute it.just after few hours PAF without entering Indian air space locked six Indian army targets but instead of hitting the targets they hit the open areas deliberately,it was just an act of warning to India what PAF is capable.One of the locked target was a Indian army northern army headquarter where top generals & chief of army were holding meeting,actually this was the surprise.Indians got very worried &I ordered IAF stationed at badami bagh cantoment Srinagar to intercept & engage PAF.IAF Immediately went on air with some migs & sukhoyi & tried to engage PAF,here it was 2nd surprise,PAF who were in air disengaged.IAF was ordered to chase them within the vicinity.while ist batch of PAF disengaged there was 2nd batch who went into air.This was a luring trap by PAF,4 fighter jets entered into pak air space same time all the jets were jammed & they were not able to contact with ground radars.indians on ground radars signaled their jets to "GO COLD GO COLD"but due to jamming it was not heard by one mig piloted by abhinandan & sukhoyi piloted by Rakesh pandey,rest 2 heard go cold go cold they came back to Indian air space.now 2 were in air they didn't got even time to fire any of their payload bcoz both jets were hit within seconds.One mig 21 fell in AJ&K while second one sukhoyi was hit in pak air space but fell in keran sector of Kashmir,both pilot ejected successfully,abhinandan was captured by pak army while second pilot mr Ramesh pandey's story is different & need a big topic what happened to him.when Indians came to know about 2 fighter jets there was chaos,in that chaos a helicopter of Indian army m17 was flying back from Uri which is about 100 km from where it was shot down by a missile.it fell outskirts of Srinagar near to the international airport of Kashmi,6 IAF personnel were killed.Dogfights are all about strategies tactics traps then skills awareness formations.little matters which plane u r flying.In short PAF defeated IAF in ever manner that day.They had doubts about present PAF capabilities which now is no more.HUSSAN SIDIQUI & NUMAN ALI were the 2 heroes of Pakistan who shot down 2 fighter jets with 3 minutes of taking of from the base.India should admit that they were defeated in that skirmish.They also failed to hit the target.Intelligance agencies of India had not done their homework
properly.IAF chief was suspended along with some of his deputies.some other day ill tell about second pilot mr RAKESH PANDEY what happened to him..

 

[masterchief_mirza]

I'd say it's cool.....but rude.

 

[CrazyZ]

Paper Tiger Analogy again.

SU30 MKI was considered superior to F-16 and JF-17, however as the events unfolded even the vintage Mirage-III and Mirage-V made their mark against anything that IAF could put in the air.

Vintage Mirage 3/5 are much faster then Rafale. They can drop their stand off munitions, go to full afterburner and no Rafale can catch them.....especially if based in Ambala. Mirage Rose is one of the best strike AC in the region.