RAFALE VS F-16 BLOCK52+

[Manticore]

 

[DARKY]

I have been tracking this thread including 14/15... maybe my comprehension of the written word is not as good; feel free to spell out your ideas/thoughts as to why US will OR will not do something?

Am I correct in sensing that my Indian friends have made some premature assumptions about what US will NEVER do and then gone public with 600+ technical criteria based decision that informs premier American defence companies that they are just not as good as the LAST Gaullist experiment?

Consider this; if I had written on this forum on 12th September 2001, "in less than a decade Indian mirage 2000H will have to contend with newest vipers armed with AIM 120 in its own backyard".......one of you guys would have said read such and such as to why that would NEVER happen. Another would have said Oh! I am shaking in my blue suedes! .......you get what I am putting down?

So if Indians want to play the old game and be on their own ( but using French equipment) that s fine. US can also play another old game it calls keeping the strategic regional balance intact for peace.

Of course US could play a new game and make Bangladesh Or Sri Lanka its new best friend.
Did you guys know that Karzai is asking for F16s too? ...Now walk that logic through.............to the end.
And yes US has supplied Red China with weapons in the past. You or anyone else cannot predict the future on that.
When US gets exasperated it does take matters into its own hands. Dare I say Abbottabad?
But that will NOT define future US - Pakistan relations. Let's wait and see!!!

Talking of U.S. tech. F-16s/Aim 120D what you forget is that better planes like PAK FA/FG FA, Rafael, EF2000 are in offering coupled with weapons like R-77RVV-AE-PD (range about 160km+dual seekers+anti-jamming capabilities) and MBDA Meteor (Highly advanced seeker+110km+ range) both having ramjet propulsion are on offer with high of level ToT.............only a fool will waste his money on decades old F-16 and Aim 120D when these are on offer................Americans are good businessmen and I don't see them loosing billions of $$$$ contracts in Indian defense market just to show that they can sell couple of dozen of their crap to XYZ opponents of India on lease/aid basis and teach a lesson to India............even if they do it would hardly affect the Supremacy of Indian weaponry but greatly damage their defense trade and lucrative market in India.

 

[kingdurgaking]

If America really want to be close.. it should have been F-35 in the first case... F-35 getting offered now at the end of contest is totally a set back for both US and India... Secondly even if F-35 is offered foregoing money.. how will they satisfy the offset?.. because 200 of them is nearly a good deal for US... as we will become the second w.r.t to the number

 

[deckingraj]

You're all over the place, what does visa abuse or illegal immigration have to do with outsourcing?

Well i am still talking about the context - i.e. "Loss of American Jobs"....Why you think i was all over the place....This was your claim..

The US has already rolled back some of the 'clean' nuclear exemptions made to India in 2008, there is more to come including visa fees of 2,000 dollars aimed specifically at Indian workers.

Anyhow as far as abuse or illegal immigration is concerned then it is not just India specific...Tighten up the rules...Who is stopping you from doing that????

Secondly you made another claim and even after asking you twice you have not responded to this one...may i ask why???

India has not delivered on its promise to open up its market, it has raised new barriers to US business.

As for technical reasons for the elimination of American aircrafts, the two American firms have as recently as le bourget 2011 stated they have not received any clarification.

Well as said, if they are not satisfied then let them seek clarification...What on the earth made you believe they got rooted out because of corruption as claimed by you earlier??? As far as we are concerned we know that there were 6 techincal reasons......On top of that concerns about TOT and offset conditions added to the rejection.....

 

[deckingraj]

If America really want to be close.. it should have been F-35 in the first case... F-35 getting offered now at the end of contest is totally a set back for both US and India... Secondly even if F-35 is offered foregoing money.. how will they satisfy the offset?.. because 200 of them is nearly a good deal for US... as we will become the second w.r.t to the number

I am not sure even if they offer F-35 they would have won...Understand the need of MRCA Deal....The time frame is important as well...Our Migs are depleting very fast and we need to plug the gap...We cannot wait for eternity...If F-35 is on offer then we might got for it(which i doubt because of so many 5 generation fighter programs - may be the naval version) but not as part of MRCA...The $11 billion is not the only money we have...

 

[The_Sidewinder]

hmmm.....you are right in your own point of view. But it is not applied to other air forces who can afford better warplanes than jf17. Jft is just a good overall solution in pakistaans case.

 

[dbc]

DBC, indications are that US fighters easily scored over their European counterparts in electronics. Rafael or Typhoon is superior in the long term --- you may mock their bang for buck.

There will be plenty of banging for buck, now that the IAF has shortlisted two overpriced EuroCanards

You seem to be getting increasingly angry these days. Please do not forget that Nixon threatened India in '71. How do you think that a traditionally non-aligned country like India will get locked in an embrace with US so quickly?

USAF was flying sorties over Delhi in 1962/63 to help Nehru sleep better at night after the beating India took at the hands of the Chinese - what's your point?

You also do not seem to understand the dynamics of corruption. Just because corruption is prevalent at all levels it does not automatically mean that corruption can compromise national security.

..er ok

 

[deckingraj]

DBC my personal impression about you as a poster is that you are reasonable but do get a bit arrogant and stubborn on certain points...

There will be plenty of banging for buck, now that the IAF has shortlisted two overpriced EuroCanards

Again that is your perception...We believe we have made the right choice....Don't underestimate the negogiation skills of Indians...we have done that throughout of our lives because we are a poor nation...We are no west who can afford to loose some money here and there.....

USAF was flying sorties over Delhi in 1962/63 to help Nehru sleep better at night after the beating India took at the hands of the Chinese - what's your point?

Another claim.....the history that i have read makes me believe that we requested for the help but that help never arrived..the damage was already done...would appreciate if you can share some data about flying sorties...b/w the year would be 61/62....Just to help a bit his point is that there was a point in history when US did openly support our arch rival and even sent their warship in Indian Ocean.....There is a baggage in the past ..though it is past and i am confident is not effecting the phyche anymore...

..er ok

Upto you to believe it or not... but as said before - this is the most transparent defense deal in Indian History....

 

[dbc]

DBC my personal impression about you as a poster is that you are reasonable but do get a bit arrogant and stubborn on certain points...

I don't have a problem with the IAF opting for European fighters, I do believe the MMRCA competition was a farce, it is clear to everyone including vendors like Dassault that the decision to exclude US fighters was political. But unfortunately no one in India has the courage to admit it was a political decision and instead Indians choose to hide behind an IAF evaluation report no one has seen.

The MMRCA down select has me convinced strategic relations with India is a waste of time. India does not trust the US and never will, I think the Administration is reaching the same conclusion.

As things stand, I'd embrace Pakistan give them the strategic depth they crave in Afghanistan and get out. At the same time exert every effort to improve Pakistan's economy, give them a nuclear deal and plenty of military equipment to secure Pakistan against India.

Another claim.....the history that i have read makes me believe that we requested for the help but that help never arrived..the damage was already done...would appreciate if you can share some data about flying sorties...b/w the year would be 61/62....

Those records are not public and have been kept out of the public domain at the request of the government of India. I know someone who flew his SABRE with the 352nd Tactical Fighter Squadron out of Palam air force base in Delhi.

Here is a narrative from a former Indian Airforce Pilot

This initiative, I believe, was a follow on from the 1962 Chinese military incursion into NEFA, Sikkim and Ladakh. A military show of strength with the presence of the US Navy Fleet in the Bay of Bengal and an Air exercise called "Shiksha" was brought together. Fighter and Bomber units from the USAF, RAF and the IAF engaged in War simulation activities along the northern ring of bases from Baghdogra and Kalaikunda in the east to Pathankot in the west.

Upto you to believe it or not... but as said before - this is the most transparent defense deal in Indian History....

How do you know its transparent? Have you seen the evaluation report?

 

[kingdurgaking]

I am not sure even if they offer F-35 they would have won...Understand the need of MRCA Deal....The time frame is important as well...Our Migs are depleting very fast and we need to plug the gap...We cannot wait for eternity...If F-35 is on offer then we might got for it(which i doubt because of so many 5 generation fighter programs - may be the naval version) but not as part of MRCA...The $11 billion is not the only money we have...

True.. that is the headache of the vendor.. if they are offering.. they should plan it.. and the money is not less... if F-35 is offered it will be nearly $30 billion.. Secondly MMRCA is the only way F-35 had a chance to come into IAF circle.. but F-35 can really make the cut with offset and ToT?.. no never.. secondly how can americans argue that F-16 and F-18 can lead the cut for next half century???.. nearly impossible... Americans never can accept it or understand that...If India request for cutting edge product it will be there in the armor for a long year... for (e.g.) take Mig-21 it outlived the age.... this is the real thing.. for instance take P-8i and E-2D... american have been generous only after India argued that it will be operated for several decades...

 

[kingdurgaking]

I don't have a problem with the IAF opting for European fighters, I do believe the MMRCA competition was a farce, it is clear to everyone including vendors like Dassault that the decision to exclude US fighters was political. But unfortunately no one in India has the courage to admit it was a political decision and instead Indians choose to hide behind an IAF evaluation report no one has seen.

IAF chief has alread expressed it .. the competition was open and transparent and it is not political... Your senators themself understood that India has settled for a fighter ... not for strategy... if you are not convinced you can ask your own LM and Boeing... Boeing has stopped campaigning knowing that they miserably lost it.. and LM is coming with a 40 year old plane with out any heart...

 

[thinkingcap81]

I don't have a problem with the IAF opting for European fighters, I do believe the MMRCA competition was a farce, it is clear to everyone including vendors like Dassault that the decision to exclude US fighters was political. But unfortunately no one in India has the courage to admit it was a political decision and instead Indians choose to hide behind an IAF evaluation report no one has seen.

Sure politics played a big part. The same would also have been true if US fighters was chosen --- and in that event it would be quite hard to deny politics triumphing over national security.

There are just too many ways in which the 600 odd technical points can be tweaked to give weightage to keep the Americans out. But since most informed members, here and elsewhere, say that overall the European birds are more potent over the 40 year span of active service life, i'd go with them. But don't say it is a farce as the accusation would have held had US fighters been chosen. Hell, even cancellation of Airbus refuellers raised eyebrows.

The MMRCA down select has me convinced strategic relations with India is a waste of time. India does not trust the US and never will, I think the Administration is reaching the same conclusion.

Quite a hasty conclusion. Friendship/trust between us is probably not the kind that you think. Give it a few more years. There will be enough convergence. MMRCA is just one aspect. But again don't think that India will join US for ganging up against China it that is what you mean.

USAF was flying sorties over Delhi in 1962/63 to help Nehru sleep better at night after the beating India took at the hands of the Chinese - what's your point?

About '62 --- it is not in the open as you say. '62 was something horrible gone wretchedly wrong for us --- and we are still scarred by it. But we do remember that our green revolution had significant American inputs.

You make it look as if India backstabbed US not once but twice. Enough mistakes were committed by both and the net result was that both parted ways for many decades.

But reward Pakistan at your peril. I cannot fathom how after all these years you seem to trust Pakistan more than India --- after all the barbs US and Pakistan regularly trade. Pakistanis have moved irreversibly away from you.

I shall not go any more off-topic as this space has been hijacked.

 

[danger007]

why discussion friends, how can rafale counter mighty F-16 block52 and su30mki --jf17. dont forget OLD is always gold.new jets cant fight with old jets. better we bring rafale and su-30mki from our storage after 40 years.

 

[deckingraj]

I don't have a problem with the IAF opting for European fighters, I do believe the MMRCA competition was a farce, it is clear to everyone including vendors like Dassault that the decision to exclude US fighters was political.

May i know how do you know that?? Have you seen the IAF evaluation report??? It is common sense that had this been a political decision then US would have won...Who can give more leverage than US when it comes to Geo-politics???? Care to tell me benefits that we will get from France/Germany which US cannot give...It seems you feel that Indians are nothing but bunch of jokers who are very keen on buying overpriced and less lethal machines(as per your POV) and are more keen in dealing with Europeans who cannot give even half the geo-political leverage that US can do....

But unfortunately no one in India has the courage to admit it was a political decision and instead Indians choose to hide behind an IAF evaluation report no one has seen.

You have got it all wrong...There are many occassions where we have opposed US where we feel our interests are being compromised and you don't need courage for that....Anyhow courage part is anyways a stupid term to use...In diplomacy you use your brain and not act like a macho man with an adraline rush....

The MMRCA down select has me convinced strategic relations with India is a waste of time. India does not trust the US and never will, I think the Administration is reaching the same conclusion.

Why are you being so naive??? For haven sake we have inked $5 Billion worth arms deal with you and still counting....I don't think the administration feels the same as you do...As far trust is concerned then kindly look at the stringes you put on the arms sale...Understand the Indian system...Soveriegnty is taken very seriously in India...That is the prime reason we followed NAM and even in desparate times did not join Soviet Block even though we were pushed by you guys...

As things stand, I'd embrace Pakistan give them the strategic depth they crave in Afghanistan and get out. At the same time exert every effort to improve Pakistan's economy, give them a nuclear deal and plenty of military equipment to secure Pakistan against India.

Well now you are acting stupid...Anyways you are most welcome to do it...But not sure what are you going gain out of it...

Those records are not public and have been kept out of the public domain at the request of the government of India. I know someone who flew his SABRE with the 352nd Tactical Fighter Squadron out of Palam air force base in Delhi.

Here is a narrative from a former Indian Airforce Pilot

Well as far as i know there was no Air-war with China...After the china debacle we went crazy as far as improvising our defense is concerned...Russia stepped in and helped a lot..I am sure at that time we would have taken US help as well but sorties, really????...Anyhow as you have said that these records are not public so there is no way for common man like me to find out...

How do you know its transparent? Have you seen the evaluation report?

Have you???? Do you even know how much time has been spent on evaluating the fighters??? This is the first deal of its kind in India where things are done so openly....b/w it is foolish to say that there is no political leverage being seeked...In the same token it is foolish to say that US was denied the deal due to politics....The first preference has been given to technical evaluation. Had it been pure politics you would have seen US fighter's winning it...In fact even the critics(experts in defense) in India don't challenge the technical evaluation...they wanted US to win even though there fighters were not as potent as the chosen one because of geo-political leverage...

 

[MastanKhan]

But reward Pakistan at your peril. I cannot fathom how after all these years you seem to trust Pakistan more than India --- after all the barbs US and Pakistan regularly trade. Pakistanis have moved irreversibly away from you.

I shall not go any more off-topic as this space has been hijacked.

Sir,

It is very simple---I thought you would understand---no---so here it is---we are a dictatorship sometimes real---an elected dictatorship sometimes elected---you are a democracy---. When they tell you to jump---you waste the time by counting votes----when they say jump---to us---we are already in the air in anticipation before they uttered those words.

Do you know why beautiful women fall for ar-se holes---or why do good men fall for sl-uts----.