Rafale proposal 'effectively dead' as Dassault bid not cheapest

[MilSpec]

The confusion is due partly to MoD inexperience with "life cycle costing" (LCC). 4
@sancho Doesn't that sound familiar....

 

[CMYX4BJ]

Looks like mother of all deals just aborted, or was that "pregnancy" just a persistent constipated lump of shit? the reality behind all shit talk is that indian purse is empty so empty that they even have to change the way how GDP is calculated to fool the world, on the other hand it also serves the Frenchies right for back tracking from avionics deal with Pakistan

A Pakistani talking about empty purse . Even without changing GDP numbers , India is growing at 5.5%. World bank prediction is that India will surpass 6.5% growth rate by 2016. For Pakistan , that's would be distant dream. We have enough money to sign 100s of such deals, but we don't like to throw our money.
Now go back to begging China/Saudi or IMF for money. You desperately need it to buy some buses for Karachi and to build some power plants. You can spend the rest of the aid money to buy some "indigenous" JF 17s from China .

 

[帅的一匹]

A Pakistani talking about empty purse . Even without changing GDP numbers , India is growing at 5.5%. World bank prediction is that India will surpass 6.5% growth rate by 2016. For Pakistan , that's a dismal dream. We have enough money to sign 100s of such deals, but we don't like to throw our money.
Now go back to begging China/Saudi or IMF for money. You desperately need it to buy some buses for your so called commercial capital Karachi and to build some power plants. You can spend the rest of the aid money to buy some "indigenous" JF 17s from China .

why French dares to cheat India in Rafale deal?

 

[Bang Galore]

The reason: During three years of negotiations between Dassault and MoD officials in the so-called "contract negotiation committee" (CNC), it has emerged that Dassault's bid was actually higher than that of the Eurofighter Typhoon, not lower as the MoD had announced on January 31, 2012.

Dassault had submitted a sketchy commercial bid, and when the CNC obtained details from the French company to arrive at the actual cost of the Rafale, the figures added up to significantly more than had originally been estimated.

The confusion is due partly to MoD inexperience with "life cycle costing" (LCC). The global tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) was the first time the MoD was awarding a contract based on LCC. This meant the winner would not be the fighter with the cheapest purchase price; instead the chosen fighter would be the one that was cheaper to buy, fly, maintain and overhaul over its 30-40 year service life.

"An inexperienced MoD, working off incomplete and sketchy details provided by Dassault, had incorrectly adjudged the Rafale cheaper. Now, after three years of obtaining clear figures from the French, we find India would be paying significantly more than had been initially calculated," says an official in the CNC.

What I have been saying for long. CAG would pretty much severely criticise this deal. This is a nightmare. No wonder Antony didn't want to sign this. Never understood how the L1 was calculated if the L1 price then could be changed.

 

[Agent_47]

But,How can it be so sure Euro fighter is the cheapest ? as LCC is done wrong in the first place.

 

[CMYX4BJ]

But,How can it be so sure Euro fighter is the cheapest ? as LCC is done wrong in the first place.

It was done wrong because dassault provided false/limited data.

 

[black-hawk_101]

Even as three Rafale fighters line up in Bengaluru for eye-popping aerobatics displays at the Aero India 2015 exhibition this week, senior ministry of defence (MoD) sources say the proposal to buy the French fighter is "effectively dead".

The reason: During three years of negotiations between Dassault and MoD officials in the so-called "contract negotiation committee" (CNC), it has emerged that Dassault's bid was actually higher than that of the Eurofighter Typhoon, not lower as the MoD had announced on January 31, 2012.

Dassault had submitted a sketchy commercial bid, and when the CNC obtained details from the French company to arrive at the actual cost of the Rafale, the figures added up to significantly more than had originally been estimated.

The confusion is due partly to MoD inexperience with "life cycle costing" (LCC). The global tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) was the first time the MoD was awarding a contract based on LCC. This meant the winner would not be the fighter with the cheapest purchase price; instead the chosen fighter would be the one that was cheaper to buy, fly, maintain and overhaul over its 30-40 year service life.

"An inexperienced MoD, working off incomplete and sketchy details provided by Dassault, had incorrectly adjudged the Rafale cheaper. Now, after three years of obtaining clear figures from the French, we find India would be paying significantly more than had been initially calculated," says an official in the CNC.

Contacted for comments, the MoD has not responded.

The MoD has been backing away from the Rafale for two months now. On December 30, 2014, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar admitted for the first time there were "complications" in the negotiations with Dassault, and outlined the IAF's alternatives.

"The Sukhoi-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force's needs", said Parrikar.

Last week the prime minister was pointedly distanced from the Rafale. On Saturday, an unusual MoD press release denied a newspaper report that the PM would fly in the Rafale during the Aero India 2015 air show at Bangalore this week.

"It is clarified that there is no plan for the Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi to fly in any fighter jet. The news item is incorrect, misconceived and is not based on facts", stated the MoD.

This is the second time the MoD has gone wrong in LCC evaluations. As Business Standard reported on Saturday ("Defence ministry official questions whether Pilatus was cheapest trainer", February 14) an internal MoD noting last month sharply questioned the award of a contract for 75 PC-7 Mark II basic trainer aircraft to Swiss company, Pilatus. There too, the LCC was calculated incorrectly.

Significantly, that noting, signed by AR Sule, the MoD's "Finance Manager (Air)", who handles financial aspects of military aircraft purchases, alerts the defence minister to issues with LCC evaluation in the MMRCA tender.

Sule writes: "The issue (with LCC calculations) may be brought to the notice of the RM (Raksha Mantri) as two high value cases of IAF based on LCC model are at CFA (competent financial authority) approval stage."

Dassault's impending loss, however, will not be the Eurofighter Typhoon's gain. Eurofighter GmbH has maintained an expensive presence in Delhi for the last three years, just in case Dassault's bid encounters trouble. But Parrikar has made it clear that procurement procedures do not permit the second-placed vendor, i.e. Eurofighter GmbH, to be awarded the contract in place of the "preferred vendor", i.e. Dassault.

Dassault was adjudged winner of the MMRCA tender through a two-stage process. In the first stage the IAF ruled out on April 27, 2011 four of the six competing fighters. Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin's F-16IN Super Viper; Saab's Gripen NG, and the Russian MiG-35 were adjudged not to have met the IAF's performance requirements.

In the second stage, the commercial bids of the remaining two vendors -Dassault's Rafale, and the Eurofighter Typhoon - were compared on a "life cycle basis" to select the lower bidder. On January 31, 2012, the Rafale was chosen as the cheaper of the two options, a decision that the MoD is now walking away from.

A senior official familiar with the Rafale contract negotiations says, "Given the value of this contract, it was always going to be scrutinised in detail. No MoD official is willing to endorse a Rs 100,000 crore contract with Dassault when it seems as if Rafale is not even the cheapest option".

This means the IAF would have to look elsewhere for fighters to increase its depleted squadrons from the current 35 to the authorised 45 (with 18 fighters in each squadron).

Besides enlarging its Sukhoi-30MKI fleet from the 272 fighters HAL will build by 2018, the IAF could order more indigenous Tejas Mark I fighters, over and above the 40 now on order from HAL. The IAF could also intensify its co-development of the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) with Sukhoi.

For Dassault, an Indian cancellation would be a serious blow. The French air force and navy, dogged by budget cutbacks, have reduced their planned Rafale numbers from 310 to just 180. On Friday, Egypt announced it would buy 24 Rafale fighters, becoming the first and only overseas buyer for Dassault.

"India will take longer than Egypt," said Eric Trappier, the chief executive officer of Dassault on Friday.

Rafale proposal 'effectively dead' as Dassault bid not cheapest | Business Standard News

I think 150 Mirage-2000s will be cheap for IAF to get from France.

 

[CONNAN]

I think 150 Mirage-2000s will be cheap for IAF to get from France.

Mk 2000 production is closed we need to buy second hand again negotiate with France to upgrade and same old saga i would just buy mig 35 since we already license produce the engines , compatable weapons , instructors , and we also have fully trained service personal and service depot and they are cost effective . or . Produce more Su-30MKI and Su-HAL FGFA.

 

[black-hawk_101]

Mk 2000 production is closed we need to buy second hand again negotiate with France to upgrade and same old saga i would just buy mig 35 since we already license produce the engines , compatable weapons , instructors , and we also have fully trained service personal and service depot and they are cost effective .

Yes second hand will be the best.

 

[Agent_47]

It was done wrong because dassault provided false/limited data.

No,mate the assessment method was wrong. 3 year negotiations with partners and other things shoot up the expected price.

 

[CONNAN]

Yes second hand will be the best.

Not really If Dassault plays hard ball

AIN reports that a quarter of India’s Mirage 2000 fleet is grounded because a contract for spares has been stuck in the bureaucracy for years. This means some planes are scavenged for parts.

Meanwhile, the 2 aircraft upgraded in France are awaiting certification. Beyond that, the 7-year timeline to complete the upgrades seems optimistic in light of HAL’s habitual tardiness. At least their staff has reportedly already been trained in France. Source: AIN – Indian Air Force Mirage 2000 Upgrade Progresses Despite Groundings.

so better stay away from them more info

Indian Air Force Mirage 2000 Upgrade Progresses Despite Groundings | Defense: Aviation International News

India’s Fighter Upgrades: Mirage 2000s Grounded Parts, Waiting Upgrades

 

[black-hawk_101]

Not really If Dassault plays hard ball

AIN reports that a quarter of India’s Mirage 2000 fleet is grounded because a contract for spares has been stuck in the bureaucracy for years. This means some planes are scavenged for parts.

Meanwhile, the 2 aircraft upgraded in France are awaiting certification. Beyond that, the 7-year timeline to complete the upgrades seems optimistic in light of HAL’s habitual tardiness. At least their staff has reportedly already been trained in France. Source: AIN – Indian Air Force Mirage 2000 Upgrade Progresses Despite Groundings.

so better stay away from them more info

Indian Air Force Mirage 2000 Upgrade Progresses Despite Groundings | Defense: Aviation International News

India’s Fighter Upgrades: Mirage 2000s Grounded Parts, Waiting Upgrades

Then they should sell these Mirage-2000s. But I think IAF like to have more of these in the fleet.

 

[CONNAN]

Then they should sell these Mirage-2000s. But I think IAF like to have more of these in the fleet.

hope you can understand this

The bear is smiling. Expect 60-70 more Su-30 mkI to be signed.

 

[AUz]

 

[Kompromat]

India should invest its $20 billion to develop AMCA and Tejas.