Rafale proposal 'effectively dead' as Dassault bid not cheapest

[sancho]

Yes, you could doubt the authenticity of his sources. But there is nothing to indicate he is being paid by any entity, which is a prety serious charge and one not to be bandied lightly.

As said, his one sided articles do inidicate that, especially since he tried to push F35 not only for MMRCAs but also for FGFAs and that with pretty nonsense stuff.

 

[Bang Galore]

But there is nothing to indicate he is being paid by any entity, which is a prety serious charge and one not to be bandied lightly.

Unfortunately bandied about way too often. Some Rafale supporters have tended to go overboard. Almost like that charge will next be made of the Defence Minister himself.......


Don't understand the logic behind such reactions. If there is no merit to what Ajai Shukla, Bharat Karnad & pretty much every major Indian publication says, so be it. What exactly is the problem, not like GoI or MoD will just go by what some chap writes in a newspaper. If they are wrong, it is their credibility that will be in tatters. Somehow the Rafale supporters almost seem to want to stop every single adverse story or attribute motives etc. There have been Rafale supporters & opponents, everybody has had their say. The overreaction seems completely unnecessary.

 

[sancho]

No named sources? Seriously? Like sources would agree to be named here? If one took that line seriously, there would never be any kind of investigative reporting.

Investigative reporting includes stating facts, not only speculate. If he can't name his source, he can go to IAF or MoD officials and ask them about this. It's not like he doesn't have the access, but all he did was, to send an email and now says, MoD was not ready to comment, well that shows his level of investigation don't you think?

If there is no merit to what Ajai Shukla, Bharat Karnad & pretty much every major Indian publication says, so be it.

Oh boy, don't tell me take even a single word of that nutjob to be serious?

 

[Bang Galore]

Investigative reporting includes stating facts, not only speculate. If he can't name his source, he can go to IAF or MoD officials and ask them about this. It's not like he doesn't have the access, but all he did was, to send an email and now says, MoD was not ready to comment, well that shows his level of investigation don't you think?

Your version of investigative reporting is pretty much your way alone. There will be no one who will confirm this one way or the other. the truth will only be know about the merits when the deal is decided on. If decided against, Mr. Ajai Shukla was probably correct, If for, he was clearly wrong. MoD simply cannot make an official comment on this matter. Period.

You would probably have dismissed Watergate investigations because the source was unnamed.Or Bofors.

 

[IND151]

- it's a bad fighter and doesn't comply to IAF flight performace requirements
- it's not available for licence production based on ToT, so doesn't comply to the industrial requirements of the tender
- the US doesn't share critical techs, which is a crucial part of the MMRCA requirement
- it comes with high operational and maintenance restrictions, just as no customizations
- we have FGFA which covers all the above
- it is more expensive per unit than any MMRCA and roughly twice as expensive to operate than Rafale

It has aerodynamic performance of a brick.

it is more expensive per unit than any MMRCA and roughly twice as expensive to operate than Rafale

I know F-35 is more expensive than Rafale but how did you arrive at roughly twice as expensive to operate than Rafale conclusion?

 

[doppelganger]

Or Bofors.

Sir/s, sorry for asking this unrelated question on Rafale thread but since many Indian defence experts are here pls allow me the liberty of asking this question that has been vexing me greatly.

Bofors was always considered a very good gun, technically. Forget the scam for a moment (amateur levels of money, by today's standards anyways ....)

But I have heard that Indian Govt since that time has not bought a single new gun. So are we still using those aging Bofors? Are we not planning on buying some good replacement any time soon? Wasn't there some news of Tata building a gun?

I can understand tanks and helicopters and planes are complex pieces of equipment. But what stops us from making a really big gun? I mean, from the looks of it, its a really long tube/metal pipe, moving around on two wheels .... (asking seriously)

Thanks.

 

[Bang Galore]

Oh boy, don't tell me take even a single word of that nutjob to be serious?

Serious? What difference does it make to me? Either a good read or bad read, however when article after article say something similar, it would be wise not to dismiss it. Can always dismiss a single article, doesn't make sense to dismiss a rash of them. I would take your word at face value if you said that something was within the purview of your knowledge until proven otherwise, don't see any reason to dismiss the word of people in the public arena who have a reputation to lose.

 

[Donatello]

If the price is higher than what they considered the winner on.......seriously, wtf is going?

 

[sancho]

Your version of investigative reporting is pretty much your way alone.

Not really, I gave 3 clear reasons!

1) Former MoD investigated charges about Rafales life cycle costs and didn't found anything
2) Current government reviewed the Rafale bid and officially went on with the negotiations since then
3) official records of European governments that shows the operational costs of EF and Rafale

I could even had said that there is not a single competition, where the EF was found to be cheaper per unit or more cost-effective than the Rafale, but that's fact that I can't confirm obviously. But the above is more than enough and I don't see anything in this article that would prove them wrong. If you can, please show us!

Serious? What difference does it make to me?

The difference is actual knowledge or just claiming BS! HE has no idea of what he is talking of, be it of the LCA that he supports blindly, of the Russian fighters, that he shows as cheaper alternatives and even less of the Rafale, where @halloweene proved him wrong multiple times.

So it should make a difference for you, if you base your opinion on facts or not!

It has aerodynamic performance of a brick.



I know F-35 is more expensive than Rafale but how did you arrive at roughly twice as expensive to operate than Rafale conclusion?

Rafale costs around $15.000 per hour according to French Senat figures, the F35 is estimated by the US forces around $31.000 per hour.

 

[Bang Galore]

Bofors was always considered a very good gun, technically.

Very good gun.

But I have heard that Indian Govt since that time has not bought a single new gun. So are we still using those aging Bofors?

Yup. Down to around 200 from the original 400.

Are we not planning on buying some good replacement any time soon?

Yup. Just like we were planning on buying fighters under the MMRCA contract.

Wasn't there some news of Tata building a gun?

Among others.

I can understand tanks and helicopters and planes are complex pieces of equipment. But what stops us from making a really big gun? I mean, from the looks of it, its a really long tube/metal pipe, moving around on two wheels .... (asking seriously)

I like your reference to it as being just a long metal tube with 2 wheels. Apparently, it is a bit more complicated. Bharat Forge is pretty much the only one in India with real capacity to build as of now but since MoD is the only customer, it is not like they can just build something that might not have a buyer though they have invested about $100 million in actually buying the Austrian plant (and bringing it to India) where the competitor of Bofors built their guns..

 

[anant_s]

Why are Indian members resisted of F35?

Till the time FGFA project is in line, there is little possibility of of having another fifth generation fighter. I would be prohibitively costly to have two side by side and that too at the same timeline of induction.

 

[Bang Galore]

Not really, I gave 3 clear reasons!

1) Former MoD investigated charges about Rafales life cycle costs and didn't found anything
2) Current government reviewed the Rafale bid and officially went on with the negotiations since then
3) official records of European governments that shows the operational costs of EF and Rafale

I could even had said that there is not a single competition, where the EF was found to be cheaper per unit or more cost-effective than the Rafale, but that's fact that I can't confirm obviously. But the above is more than enough and I don't see anything in this article that would prove them wrong. If you can, please show us!

It is not about finding it wrong or correct. I certainly don't have sources in the MoD to prove it one way or the other. The point is simply about the attributing of motives and in this particular case, was about whether sources agree to be named. I'm not taking sides beyond what is already in the public domain - that this deal is in a bit of trouble. I have absolutely no problems if you think that this deal is the way to go, we can agree to disagree but to hear every article being dismissed as someone being on the take is getting boring.

 

[doppelganger]

Thanks @Bang Galore

I really get depresed when I read that we can't even make our own guns. I mean we have been building and fighting with various types of canons for over 600 years now ....

We have to get out of this buy-use-lose- wait-buy cycle of ours. What are we going to do in a world war when its every country for itself, every factory retooled and churning out arms for its own people? Sit on our thumbs and look at DRDO?

 

[Bang Galore]

Thanks @Bang Galore

I really get depresed when I read that we can't even make our own guns. I mean we have been building and fighting with various types of canons for over 600 years now ....

We have to get out of this buy-use-lose- wait-buy cycle of ours. What are we going to do in a world war when its every country for itself, every factory retooled and churning out arms for its own people? Sit on our thumbs and look at DRDO?

I agree, this (artillery) & not being able to have a decent rifle of our own is the most depressing part.

 

[SrNair]

this deal is very much related with the national core security matters. any one get negligent on this shall be charged in the military court. India hall not let these go so easily that we can't exclude the possibility of collusion of Indian officer with Dassault which leads to the so called false data.


yes, that's why you don't make progress all the time. you too easily forgive every fault.

In India defence issues like these are transperant to entire public .But AFAIK entire defence matters in PRC are absolute opaque.So even if a powerful person in PRC military did q thing like this how can you get those info.After all your entire knowledge is just based on CCP news.

In India things are way different .I hope you can understand.