Rafale performance review

[Umair Nawaz]

Watch till the end, guys how many Gs you guys think Rafale is pulling here?

I had found this comment from internet;

''Some have claimed the Rafale to be capped at 12G in standard operating manoeuvers (although 12G is still pretty extreme), but they also claim that the Rafale can mechanically go up to 14G in emergency operating manoeuvers. I have no official info to back that claim so we can't use it as 100% reliable. There is however a video of a near-miss accident of the French Navy, where we see a Navy Rafale engage in a "Split S" manoeuver too low : the jet pulls up less than 5 meters from the waves (the exhaust of the engines actually create a wake in the water because the jet came so low). I honestly don't know how many Gs were pulled by the pilot when he realized he wasn't going to make it by pulling "normal" hard Gs, but I wouldn't be surprised that he eventually did 14Gs at that moment. '' Here is that video;

Rafale F3R can turn upto 27 degrees/sec. too compared with JF17's 26 deg/sec.{with Block-1/2} and 8.5 Gs of Block 1-2 and maybe 9Gs{?} for Block-3

@airomerix @Hodor @Windjammer plz review if this info. is accurate and if so then how will PAF manage Rafale in ACM?
@gambit

 

[FuturePAF]

Perhaps with more composites the JF-17 maybe able to sustain higher Gs for longer. IMHO, But this also has to do with energy management; TWR, and the fact this Rafale looks like it is in clean configuration. A mig-21 pulled a similar maneuver during one of the Arab-Israeli wars

the last few minutes of this video

 

[The Accountant]

I am not an aviation expert but based on my knowledge of physics this is not a high G manuver.

g is a product of speed and angle. In this case although angle is high but speed is slow therefore i feel that its is much kower than extreme 12G or 14G situations where aircarfts take turns at mach 1.5 and above.

Watch till the end, guys how many Gs you guys think Rafale is pulling here?

I had found this comment from internet;

''Some have claimed the Rafale to be capped at 12G in standard operating manoeuvers (although 12G is still pretty extreme), but they also claim that the Rafale can mechanically go up to 14G in emergency operating manoeuvers. I have no official info to back that claim so we can't use it as 100% reliable. There is however a video of a near-miss accident of the French Navy, where we see a Navy Rafale engage in a "Split S" manoeuver too low : the jet pulls up less than 5 meters from the waves (the exhaust of the engines actually create a wake in the water because the jet came so low). I honestly don't know how many Gs were pulled by the pilot when he realized he wasn't going to make it by pulling "normal" hard Gs, but I wouldn't be surprised that he eventually did 14Gs at that moment. '' Here is that video;

Rafale F3R can turn upto 27 degrees/sec. too compared with JF17's 26 deg/sec. and 8.5 Gs of Block 1-2 and maybe 9Gs{?} for Block-3

@airomerix @Hodor @Windjammer plz review if this info. is accurate and if so then how will PAF manage Rafale in ACM?
@gambit

 

[Bossman]

Human body cannot sustain anything higher than 9gs so anything higher is meaningless. Except for the low level acceleration over the wave tops a pretty routine performance. Max maybe 8 gs.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

If you guys remember, Wg Cdr Nouman Akram died the same way when he couldnt recover from his Split S in low flying in an F16, But here Rafale's performance is totally different and point to notice is that its on Sea level where Air is thick. And Nouman Akram died in Islamabad which is above sea level.

There is lot more to it then meets the eye about Rafale's true performance in my view.

 

[The Accountant]

If you guys remember, Wg Cdr Nouman Akram died the same way when he couldnt recover from his Split S in low flying in an F16, But here Rafale's performance is totally different and point to notice is that its on Sea level where Air is thick. And Nouman Akram died in Islamabad which is above sea level.

There is lot more to it then meets the eye about Rafale's true performance in my view.

Watch 2 videos simultaneously. There is a hell of difference in speed of 2 aircrafts.
For the sake of simplicity u can compare turn toom by a car driving at 20 km/h with driving at 200km/h

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Watch 2 videos simultaneously. There is a hell of difference in speed of 2 aircrafts.
For the sake of simplicity u can compare turn toom by a car driving at 20 km/h with driving at 200km/h

speed maybe different but got to remember he is flying at sea level too while other wasnt.

 

[airomerix]

Watch till the end, guys how many Gs you guys think Rafale is pulling here?

I had found this comment from internet;

''Some have claimed the Rafale to be capped at 12G in standard operating manoeuvers (although 12G is still pretty extreme), but they also claim that the Rafale can mechanically go up to 14G in emergency operating manoeuvers. I have no official info to back that claim so we can't use it as 100% reliable. There is however a video of a near-miss accident of the French Navy, where we see a Navy Rafale engage in a "Split S" manoeuver too low : the jet pulls up less than 5 meters from the waves (the exhaust of the engines actually create a wake in the water because the jet came so low). I honestly don't know how many Gs were pulled by the pilot when he realized he wasn't going to make it by pulling "normal" hard Gs, but I wouldn't be surprised that he eventually did 14Gs at that moment. '' Here is that video;

Rafale F3R can turn upto 27 degrees/sec. too compared with JF17's 26 deg/sec.{with Block-1/2} and 8.5 Gs of Block 1-2 and maybe 9Gs{?} for Block-3

@airomerix @Hodor @Windjammer plz review if this info. is accurate and if so then how will PAF manage Rafale in ACM?
@gambit

Okay. So there are two things.

In modern fighter aircraft, there are two types (or only one) of limiters, namely G limiter and AoA limiter. They both do their own jobs to a) Protecting the pilot b) protecting the aircraft's structural integrity.

In F-16, there is only AoA limiter (analog flickus in our Block 15s and digital flickus in Block 52) that limits the AoA of the aircraft to 28 degrees. There is no g limiter. One of the reasons why F-16 pilots sometimes black out and crash.

However, It hardly matters what does the AoA limiter or G limiter says for Rafale and JF-17 in ACM. Since it comes down mainly to the pilot skill. For example, JF-17 and Rafale merge and JF-17 goes in for a lead turn while Rafale does not. It would put Rafale in a disadvantageous position right away. In one circle fight, JF-17 will be able to jam its WEZ (weapons engagement zone) and deliver some rounds as soon as they merge again.

So tactics matter alot as long as it's not F-104 vs F-16 type of scenario.

 

[Raider 21]

Okay. So there are two things.

In modern fighter aircraft, there are two types (or only one) of limiters, namely G limiter and AoA limiter. They both do their own jobs to a) Protecting the pilot b) protecting the aircraft's structural integrity.

In F-16, there is only AoA limiter (analog flickus in our Block 15s and digital flickus in Block 52) that limits the AoA of the aircraft to 28 degrees. There is no g limiter. One of the reasons why F-16 pilots sometimes black out and crash.

However, It hardly matters what does the AoA limiter or G limiter says for Rafale and JF-17 in ACM. Since it comes down mainly to the pilot skill. For example, JF-17 and Rafale merge and JF-17 goes in for a lead turn while Rafale does not. It would put Rafale in a disadvantageous position right away. In one circle fight, JF-17 will be able to jam its WEZ (weapons engagement zone) and deliver some rounds as soon as they merge again.

So tactics matter alot as long as it's not F-104 vs F-16 type of scenario.

The FLCS on the Viper uses a combination of input information from some parameters being AoA & G, roll being flaperons and yaw which includes rudder authority. Because of the seating position and the fact the FCC uses a number of variables to help execute a maneuver, plus the aircraft's design indicates that it may not need a G-limiter. But if it exceeds max AoA and it can exceed 35 degrees, then a similar function to a G-limiter can get applied. I think it was the pitch or yaw override function or something........been a few years.

Just remember this, the Rafale is a full FBW whereas the JF-17 just is on 1 channel if I'm not mistaken. Rafales can surprise the JF-17 in manners that the JF-17 pilot may not expect. However again as you've mentioned, it depends on the pilot's skill and tactics.

 

[airomerix]

The FLCS on the Viper uses a combination of input information from some parameters being AoA & G, roll being flaperons and yaw which includes rudder authority. Because of the seating position and the fact the FCC uses a number of variables to help execute a maneuver, plus the aircraft's design indicates that it may not need a G-limiter. But if it exceeds max AoA and it can exceed 35 degrees, then a similar function to a G-limiter can get applied. I think it was the pitch or yaw override function or something........been a few years.

Just remember this, the Rafale is a full FBW whereas the JF-17 just it on 1 channel if I'm not mistaken. Rafales can surprise the JF-17 in manners that the JF-17 pilot may not expect. However again as you've mentioned, it depends on the pilot's skill and tactics.

Sir aap ki to kya he baat.

On the subject, JF-17 has 3 axis FBW. But yes, the overall flight envelope vis a vis superior power of Rafale would make it a nightmare, provided it is in hands of a capable pilot. But, then again, it comes down to who is a better pilot.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Perhaps with more composites the JF-17 maybe able to sustain higher Gs for longer. IMHO, But this also has to do with energy management; TWR, and the fact this Rafale looks like it is in clean configuration. A mig-21 pulled a similar maneuver during one of the Arab-Israeli wars

the last few minutes of this video

Vallahi Billahi!!! Eleven Egyptian Mig-21s couldn't dominate over a single Israeli Mirage!!!! The Iman and Ihlas of these folks is less than that of the Firaun!!! They deserve to be under the feet of the Jewish folks......

In contrast, PAF gives a bloody nose to the Air Forces of seven times larger India and "father of the Ehl-i Dunya" Israil, being supported by almost entire known world, whenever they meet....

Only the Murtedin and Munafikin can go against Pak.....

 

[crankthatskunk]

Watch till the end, guys how many Gs you guys think Rafale is pulling here?

I had found this comment from internet;

Great start for a thread. Question mark and quote from internet without a reference.
But that is OK, depending.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Okay. So there are two things.

In modern fighter aircraft, there are two types (or only one) of limiters, namely G limiter and AoA limiter. They both do their own jobs to a) Protecting the pilot b) protecting the aircraft's structural integrity.

In F-16, there is only AoA limiter (analog flickus in our Block 15s and digital flickus in Block 52) that limits the AoA of the aircraft to 28 degrees. There is no g limiter. One of the reasons why F-16 pilots sometimes black out and crash.

However, It hardly matters what does the AoA limiter or G limiter says for Rafale and JF-17 in ACM. Since it comes down mainly to the pilot skill. For example, JF-17 and Rafale merge and JF-17 goes in for a lead turn while Rafale does not. It would put Rafale in a disadvantageous position right away. In one circle fight, JF-17 will be able to jam its WEZ (weapons engagement zone) and deliver some rounds as soon as they merge again.

So tactics matter alot as long as it's not F-104 vs F-16 type of scenario.

since yr his fan watch this fight. Hornet is not only tight turning aircraft but has excellent AoA too, actually its AoA is better then Thunder as well.

WEZ gya bharrh main........

Thunder ki gun dekhi b ha? wo kisi kaam ki nai ha. Its pointing downwards and is used for strafing.......

what if that IAF Rafale is being driven by lets say a non indian western pilot in Kashmir in next fight? You do realize that after BECA agreement chances of that happening is quite bright right?

But since you mentioned it, isnt human beings limited to only nine Gs? and if what u claim abt F16 is true then why F16 crashed in Noman Akram's case which didnt had analogous FBW{f16} it was ex USAF f16 delivered just 5 years ago!!!!!!!!! it served in their Edwards AB didnt it?

Also remember that F16 crash in America also happened in exactly same way as Noman Akram's, But in this video of Rafale, This aircraft even though is in slow speed, recovers that too @ sea level where air is thick.

Samajh rahy ho na main kya kahny ki koshish kr raha hun?

 

[Raider 21]

Sir aap ki to kya he baat.

On the subject, JF-17 has 3 axis FBW. But yes, the overall flight envelope vis a vis superior power of Rafale would make it a nightmare, provided it is in hands of a capable pilot. But, then again, it comes down to who is a better pilot.

I think only 1 channel or mode is digital. The rest might be analogue. At least that's what I recall at No. 26 sqn a few years back

 

[Umair Nawaz]

The FLCS on the Viper uses a combination of input information from some parameters being AoA & G, roll being flaperons and yaw which includes rudder authority. Because of the seating position and the fact the FCC uses a number of variables to help execute a maneuver, plus the aircraft's design indicates that it may not need a G-limiter. But if it exceeds max AoA and it can exceed 35 degrees, then a similar function to a G-limiter can get applied. I think it was the pitch or yaw override function or something........been a few years.

Just remember this, the Rafale is a full FBW whereas the JF-17 just is on 1 channel if I'm not mistaken. Rafales can surprise the JF-17 in manners that the JF-17 pilot may not expect. However again as you've mentioned, it depends on the pilot's skill and tactics.

it has 3 axis FBW sir.

waisy if thunder comes against a Rafale in South Asian scenario, turning off the FCS wont be a bad idea, watch the video below Thunder has became Rafale here without FCS.