Rafale Out of MRCA Consequences FOR PAF

[Patriot]

Good point, infrastructure and pilot experience is already there. However there will come a time when PAF will have to wean itself the F-16 and now as we gear our airforce to induct many Chinese platforms, it couldn't be a better time. Plus I have so much faith in the senior pilots that I am sure they would be flying the Rafale with the same precision and expertise as they do with the Falcons.

Who will pay for it?Most of the money for F16 is already paid and they are being built.PAF lacks planes right now and the sooner we get F16's it will be better.Rafale will take a lot of time.Pilot Training takes time.

 

[Zarbe Momin]

We should negotiate with france for radar-avonics and BVR missels and not for Rafale.

 

[BaburCM]

Colossal failure only in strict sales and marketing terms. It is a very, very capable bird with a bright future in the ALA. Also no one is going to give you their latest developments without making you pay a hefty price. France will not just hand over tidbits for PAF to use on JF-17 or FC-20, not in a thousand years. You have to buy the package....Rafale.

That's true. I was indeed referring to the marketing and cost factor. The Rafale is indeed a very capable fighter. One that can serve PAF for many decades to come. Perhaps, Pakistan could join UAE in some sort of consortium and rigorously negotiate for the best possible deal. With the hefty price tag should also come the complete ToT package in my opinion. Now that the Rafale has virtually been rejected from every corner, PAF could show interest, but simultaneously apply the necessary pressure in order to bargain for the right price and terms. Let's face it, Dassault industries is left with a very red face. Cost is a huge issue. I'm afraid that at this rate the French air force will be the only users of Rafale. On a different note, PAF has done exceptionally well by starting a JV with China in this regard. Customers are queuing up for the JF-17. It offers bang for the buck and that's something every customer is looking for.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

Who will pay money for it?Most of the money for F16 is already paid and they are being built.PAF lacks planes right now and the sooner we get F16's it will be better.Rafale will take a lot of time.Pilot Training takes time.

I'm not exactly certain what has been paid, but these planes are still prone to a final approval from Congress and future sanctions.

 

[maverick2009]

Most important issue for JF17 mk2 IS HOW MUCH WILL france/sdassult want to add French engine radar & weapons.

Remember we are talking of a non french fighter in JF17.

French have already quoted over $30 million per plane to upgrade mirage 2000. ie $1.5 billion for 51 planes.

Surely PAF needs to look at British who are offering EJ200 ROLLS ROYCE engine to india for LCA as well as a new undercarriage.

** I also agree withy the earlier post re F16/52 its a brilliant proven platform and should be acquired in much larger nos than just token gesture of 18 new planes. PAF has full combat doctrine and maintenance experience with F16.

 

[BaburCM]

BaburCM, Do you actually believe that the French will give you the Rafale tech. to be integrated on JF-17/18/17 MK-2.

Of course, certainly not the most sensitive high tech parts. However, we could work out a deal with the French in which we can specify our requirements. Perhaps a watered down version of the avionics etc. In the long term, the Chinese will come up with the goodies. It's only a matter of time. PAF won't make any hasty decisions and will only act (when deemed necessary) after the MRCA deal is concluded.

 

[spurdozer]

F-16 B-52 is really important for PAF it's a superb bird and one it knows really well, and we can later on put on the SABR AESA/MESA radar in it which is developed for F-16 by Northrop and I agree it should be bought in large numbers not just 18.

SABR


The Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) will be a full performance fire control AESA. SABR will offer all the advantages of an active electronically scanned multi-function array, but at significant cost savings. Designed to support next generation weapons and tactics, the SABR ensures the needed combat advantage over the adversary. While designed initially to fit the F-16 with no structural, power or cooling modifications, the SABR is scalable to fit other aircraft platforms and mission areas.
Meets/exceeds operational requirements
Multi-function/Multi-mission
Increased Range
Time Sensitive Precision Strike
Data Link/Communications
Interleaved Modes
Improves Reliability & Maintainability
Commonality
Decreased Life Cycle Costs
AESA Array Maintenance
Common/Open System Architecture for Future Growth

 

[MastanKhan]

Colossal failure only in strict sales and marketing terms. It is a very, very capable bird with a bright future in the ALA. Also no one is going to give you their latest developments without making you pay a hefty price. France will not just hand over tidbits for PAF to use on JF-17 or FC-20, not in a thousand years. You have to buy the package....Rafale.

Hi,

You are absolutely correct. When it comes to a sales pitch---nothing comes close to the americans---specially with the new found love between the two india / america---french never had a chance---even though they were made to believe so.

France will end up giving quite a bit to pakistan---pakistan has been a reliable buyer of french equipment---and if thefrench don't let air get into their heads---we will do ok.

 

[BaburCM]

Whilst I agree that the F-16 Block 52+ is the best choice for PAF, the main problem lies with the strings and sanctions. We can barely operate the new F-16s. 18 latest F-16s are a very good number for learning and applying to the JF-17.

 

[Machoman]

Rafale is a good machine and it will be a great assest for Pakistan to add this is in PAF. So what if it is expensive. Sell two JF/17 and buy one Rafale. Its very high tech plane which can cause lot of damage against any enemy. Other then that we cannot just depend Falcon all the time. We need to have different kind a plane in PAF too.

 

[BaburCM]

Something that mustn't be overlooked is the difficult and costly maintenance of Rafale. Also, the twin engine concept just doesn't fit PAFs doctrine. No matter how tempting Rafale may seem, it just doesn't add up for PAF. The wisest approach would be to upgrade the JF-17s and wait for the fully fledged FC-20s.

 

[Keysersoze]

Well the PN might be interested in a few units. and the PAF has operated twin engines before and may do again.

 

[BaburCM]

Well the PN might be interested in a few units. and the PAF has operated twin engines before and may do again.

That's comparing mangoes with bananas. The A-5s are a totally different platform and much less maintenance intensive than Rafale. Also, the cost of the spares would be a huge headache if not the worst nightmare. The Rafale fighters are nice to haves, but not necessary in my opinion. FC-20 will be PAFs advanced multirole air superiority fighter along with upgraded JF-17s and perhaps quite a few latest F-16s.

 

[PAFAce]

The Indians are smart. They have the cash and they have the brains, lethal combination. The Americans make the best value-based defence platforms, hands down, so the "MRCA contest" is merely a formality to push down prices.

On the other hand, how can someone even suggest the Rafale for the PAF. If the Indian Air Force, one which has much more dough to play around with, has discounted the Rafale for poor value, how on Earth can Pakistan justify it? Do you have any idea of the cost of this platform, both short term and long term? Scrap F-16 Block 52 deal for Rafale, scrap a 30-40 million dollar tested and true platform for a 60-70 million dollar brand new plane? Why not buy the Space Shuttle and go to the moon?

Everything the Rafale offers is attainable through other, cheaper, means. No doubt it is a capable plane, and no doubt that it would be very beneficial to the PAF (even though they may not need it), but there is a reason Pakistan rarely buys directly from the French. Second hand Mirage III and V deals were godsend for the PAF. Hopefully, similar minds will prevail this time as well.

 

[Quwa]

Keep in mind that the UAE may go for Rafale, and that may bring forth new confidence in the Rafale - particularly among major Muslim countries. For example the UAE would be seen as a major operator, and Pakistan has close geo-political proximity with the UAE. The two countries can facilitate a joint-order for the Rafale, and perhaps cut a pretty attractive deal given the problems Dassault is having.

Also bear in mind that in logistical terms, PAF can achieve a fair degree of commonality between Rafale and JF-17 by using the same line of avionics, ECM/EW, weapon-systems, HMDS, etc.

The Rafale can play a very solid role in the maritime department. I recall H Khan on PakDef saying that the Rafale's airframe has better durability against erosion, salt, etc than the Super Hornet!

In any case, I believe the PAF could even acquire the 60 Mirage 2000-9s in the UAE-AF, and have the full weight of the French behind to support the deal. For example, the PAF can use the JF-17's engine, avionics, ECM/EW, etc, as leverage, as well as use 1 or 2 squadrons of Rafale as added bait.