Rafale OR fgfa NOT both is the dilemma Facing IAF

[agni 6]

This 50 billion is going to be spread over 10-12 years which is roughly 5-6 Billion a year.Easily done.Problem is we desperately wan't indigenous engine and not depend on America for its GE-404/414.

 

[Darth Vader]

In past we had seen a problem with Indian armed forces they dont stick to one platform , they keep jumping one to others if you have money you can chose the best or you can stick to one til its mature make it the best
Thats what made west best in this field instead of sticking to soo many projects they worked on one now they got the best weapons Its indian money they can chose one of the best 4.5 generation air craft or wait for the 5th generation plane

 

[agni 6]

Today we have reached maturity level as china did some 10 years back.We were able to counter until now by buying weapons
from abroad.Now if the major arms players keep on giving us technology we will be very powerful not only as a country
but technologically also and the major arms exporters will loose their market and instead will have competitor in India.
So now they have ganged up and are resorting to technology denial to us.We can have weapons but no crucial technology
will be transferred to us so at the time of war we are dependent on them for spares etc.The only option that we have is now to strengthen our nuclear triad and make critical technologies at home and the government is doing exactly that.Submarines
Scorpenes and nuclear ones are being denied to us.Barak 8 which was our JV with Israel for MRSAM,LRSAM, Anti ship missiles,
Aircraft engine technology, Tank engine technology, seekers, radars, AA missiles, Helicopter engine technology Pak-FA technology and lots more is being denied.The government is working on all these things on war footing and private sector is being roped in and also Psu's are being forced to compete with each other.This will ultimately be a boon since instead of importing we will be self dependent but we will suffer for 5 years.

 

[Hulk]

If there is a choice to be made. I will go by Rafale. I think maintainability and availability is way higher with French jets. Its not always 5> 4.5. Rafale is super choice. @sancho.

 

[agni 6]

There will be a threat from china in another 3-5 years when their 5 generation J-20 will be completed.Their engine
is underpowered for now but not for long and Rafale will not be able to counter that.We will need Pak-FA at that
time along with AMCA if possible.RIght now our aircraft nos. are going down so we need rafale or other aircraft like
su-30mki, Lca.So we need both Rafale/SU-MKI and LCA for now and Pak-FA and AMCA for later.

 

[ralphleo]

Folks, here are few updates for all of you on the basis of my conversations with some folks.

1. Rafale Deal will be signed and it will cost around USD 25B. This is the money that will be spent by Indian Govt till 2030. India will start manufacturing the first Rafale by 2017 mid time frame and will continue to do so until 2030. The deal will be signed of 126 fighters but everybody knows we will order 189.

2. FGFA will be there and India will sign a deal for the same. I was told that some people are so anxious about that deal that there is more than what meets the eye. It is my personal guess that a number of agreements under this umbrella deal will be signed including transfer of techs that no one will acknowledge on paper.

3. India will also be working on its home grown AMCA despite of all claims of shut-down of that project. That project is being envisaged keeping IAF requirements of a designated stealth ground attack plane in mind with air superiority as its secondary function. This is now envisaged to be licensed produced from 2030 onwards. The project will have inputs from ISrael. What is not yet finalized is if we are going to seek French help for the engine or will evolve KAveri.

More as I learn.

 

[faithfulguy]

When you look at GLOBAL air powers countries with the same or similar budgets as the IAF have laid their futures on one fighter project only

how the hell are IAF suppose to FUND and acquire TWO massive costly platforms over a simlar timeframe

eg

ISRAEL will go for F35
SAUDI WILL GO FOR Typhoon and upgrafe F15 eagles to SILENT standard
Germany & the RAF the Typhoon
France the RAFALE


we are looking at 3 possiblly 4 projects if we include NAVY MIG29 and other future platforms.

fOR A NATION RELYINMG ON IMPORTS for hese macxhines its madness

Many Indians only like to talk about what Indian AF will look like in 10 year. They never talk about how India is going to pay for it. You are the first one. Good for you.

 

[vsdave2302]

It's not a money issue, its the tech transfer not being agreed on.

I believe just scrap the french if they hardball too long and sign up EF with tech transfer.

Euro fighter has offered partnership also. But issue is whether Euro fighter is as capable as Rafale?

We can consider Su 35 or Mig 35 specifically taking care of Indian requirement. We can divert some fund for LCA MK 2 And 3.

 

[faithfulguy]

French are refusing some engine tot which was agreed to thereby we decided to buy this uber expensive toy.Since then as a fall back measure we have revived the Kaveri program and if all goes well it will power the LCA mk2 at a later date.If frenchies don't agree in time before our indigenous engine reaches some maturity in 2-3 yrs, its bye bye to Rafael and in the meantime we are going to ramp up Lca mk1 and Lca mk2 with GE 404 and GE 414 engines and extra Sukhoi-mki while the IAF roughs it for another 2 years.FGFA has nothing to do with it since we will get miniscule TOT and will just finance the plane and get it by 2022.

I thought India will get full TOT of PAKFA? What happened? So is India just a buyer.

Whose ChaCha is going to fund. Estimated 50 billion for both mmrca and fgfa.

We are not rich country like the Saudi nour do we China GDP and forex.


Surely it makes sense to

1 scrap rafale purchase rough it with second hand mirage 2000 and developed tejas into six dads by 2024.

I'm not sure about LCA MKII. But MKI will only be enough for parades.

 

[shree835]

I believe India should start negotiation with EF parallel... Those french guys are creating n number of issue.

 

[faithfulguy]

Folks, here are few updates for all of you on the basis of my conversations with some folks.

1. Rafale Deal will be signed and it will cost around USD 25B. This is the money that will be spent by Indian Govt till 2030. India will start manufacturing the first Rafale by 2017 mid time frame and will continue to do so until 2030. The deal will be signed of 126 fighters but everybody knows we will order 189.

2. FGFA will be there and India will sign a deal for the same. I was told that some people are so anxious about that deal that there is more than what meets the eye. It is my personal guess that a number of agreements under this umbrella deal will be signed including transfer of techs that no one will acknowledge on paper.

3. India will also be working on its home grown AMCA despite of all claims of shut-down of that project. That project is being envisaged keeping IAF requirements of a designated stealth ground attack plane in mind with air superiority as its secondary function. This is now envisaged to be licensed produced from 2030 onwards. The project will have inputs from ISrael. What is not yet finalized is if we are going to seek French help for the engine or will evolve KAveri.

More as I learn.

No one will transfer the engine materials technology. They will manufacture the engine blades in France and Russia but the engine can be assembled in India. So India in effect is manufacturing the advance engine it self.

I believe India should start negotiation with EF parallel... Those french guys are creating n number of issue.

India had already picked France. And India should know better than acquiring sensitive material technology. India definitely can obtain the engine assembly technology though. It just have to import the materials.

 

[agni 6]

Many Indians only like to talk about what Indian AF will look like in 10 year. They never talk about how India is going to pay for it. You are the first one. Good for you.

Are you in the habit of not reading posts? and just talking through your hat.50 Billion spread over 10 years is 5 billion/yr and 50 Billion spread over 20 years is 2.5 Billion.
Both can be afforded by India.We are not a beggar nation unlike our neighbor.Kindly go through previous posts before shooting your mouth out.

 

[shree835]

Many Indians only like to talk about what Indian AF will look like in 10 year. They never talk about how India is going to pay for it. You are the first one. Good for you.

Trolling was not needed ...we are not asking money from you...This is our issue and we know how to deal with it.

 

[shree835]

No one will transfer the engine materials technology. They will manufacture the engine blades in France and Russia but the engine can be assembled in India. So India in effect is manufacturing the advance engine it self.



India had already picked France. And India should know better than acquiring sensitive material technology. India definitely can obtain the engine assembly technology though. It just have to import the materials.

We are going though tough time... and it is going to be decisive moment for Indian defense Industry in coming future...

 

[faithfulguy]

Are you in the habit of not reading posts? and just talking through your hat.50 Billion spread over 10 years is 5 billion/yr and 50 Billion spread over 20 years is 2.5 Billion.
Both can be afforded by India.We are not a beggar nation unlike our neighbor.Kindly go through previous posts before shooting your mouth out.

Indian economy is crashing below 4% growth annually. Though the defiant Indian government would not admit it. Watch for Indian government fudge number.

As for the planes, no money, no planes.




India rejects IMF projections on economic growth

We are going though tough time... and it is going to be decisive moment for Indian defense Industry in coming future...

Its good to be positive. But its even more important to be realistic. India is likely not going to be able to afford what it want.