Rafale Deal Nosedives in Negotiation Combat

[Donatello]

Hi @Donatello

This is something beyond my actual interest yet i would like to shed some more light on this one- Your proposition that How can dassault be held responsible for 108 jets manufactured in india- it is not entirely correct, here are a few reasons -
1) Remember there will be a lot of critical technologies that french wont be parting away - HAL or indian MoD cant expect the french to part away with each and every tech they used or patented in rafale project. Now here starts the trouble- it has been observed,via various projects that the OEMs of these "Critical sub-systems" increase the price mid way during the life cycle of the product or even worse twist the arm of indian r&d labs to their tunes- Scorpene project where india is license producing 6 subs bears testimony to that fact!- So yes,either they PART AWAY with each and every single patent or bear the responsibility

2) your second point regarding HAL being an assembler is not entirely correct- while i agree- itz major source of revenue comes from license production of foreign designed products. However HAL is gradually changing that perception by creating a knowledge based eco-system conducing for aerospace research and that is by filing a lot of PATENTS every year- last year alone they filed 400-430 patents while this year this number is expected to be in the range 450-470!- You must also bear it in mind that HAL's primary responsibility was never to heavily involve itself in research- that was the job of ADA/NAL(ADA is a consortium of DRDO while NAL is a top aerospace lab of CSIR). Yet HAL is filing patent to the tunes of 450 per year does tell a very different story!

1-Dassault has to be responsible for the parts they supply, which in most cases won't be coming from Dassault owned factories but other European companies....so yes they are responsible for that. However, the final product is put together by HAL then they are responsible for the final quality........Dassault's role takes a back seat with respect to the aircraft and they are responsible only for the parts supplied, not put together.

2-About HAL, i didn't say they are incompetent, just that their history is riddled with quality issues....you know that. Last, filing for patents is not a biggie, you and I both know this. There are thousands of patents filed each year around the world of no value and no worth...for example ......Apple patented the shape of it's iphone...........So with regards to patents it is always about the quality of patent rather than the quantity. In a similar fashion, India produces more Engineers and PhDs than the western nations.....however, why is it that their quality and impact on the society is not the same or regarded as the same? Because it is not.

 

[amardeep mishra]

India should go for Russian jets. Powerful and cost efficient.

@Chinese-Dragon
hi my dear chinese friend!

What actually makes you think russian jets are "efficient"- if efficient means - using optimum fuel and optimal cost/sortie then i am afraid Russian jets are no where close to being called "efficient"! I am making such a claim because i happen to have interacted with a couple of research engineers in seminars and heard pilots speak out openly!

you know that. Last, filing for patents is not a biggie

I beg to differ, It is indeed a great deal to file as many patents as you can- for the number of patents actually determine the "innovativeness" of any industry- mind if i tell you i had a whole freaking subject dedicated to IPRs and patents in my 6th semester back in my college(they even taught us how to file patents and the legal nitty grities)! you see,you and me are no one to judge the "industrial applicability" of an "idea" or concept- let the industry decide! I dont think chinese are really crazy to file SO MANY patents every year- ZTE alone files 2700 patents!

In a similar fashion, India produces more Engineers and PhDs than the western nations.....however, why is it that their quality and impact on the society is not the same or regarded as the same? Because it is not.

@Donatello

hi, again, two of your sentences are inconsistent(one is correct and the other is false)- yes india does produce more number of engineers(graduates) than western countries but not the Phds- india roughly produces 11,000-12,000 Phds(2014 data) whereas US produces nothing less than 30,000 and china a massive 50,000(so chinese are actually 4 times ahead of us in numbers) .
Another thing i would like to point out that quality of all the indian engineers is not same- IITs/NITs/BITs occupy the top end of spectrum - i am sure you'd have heard of ruthless IIT-JEE? believe me the competition in IITs is far more cut throat than anything else on this planet!
As for the quality of research is concerned it is gauged by "citation factor"/"impact factor" and it'll come to you as a surprise that the quality(citation factor) of indian journals in certain fields is higher than their chinese counterparts!

i will end up my argument by saying- either french part away with each and every IPR they created for rafale - 100% transfer or bear the responsibilities- i rest my case!

 

[SR-91]

Why is it so difficult to understand?Nobody wants to take responsible for India made stuff. And I do not know why India insist on French to take responsible for India made Rafale if you think HAL manufacturing capabilities is so superior.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! U r too funny.

This is MADE IN INDIA.

The only fighter jet in the WORLD, to make it thru testing/designing/prototype without a single crash.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

A) Deal size is 15 Bn-17 Bn Max
B) Dassualt may be trying to take 50% responsibility or absolving itself from damages for not meeting deadline as it depends on HAL for production and HAL is famous for delays. This is against RFP and hence MOD insists on full 100% responsibility
C) Talks of senior Dassault ppl in permanent placement/long deputation to oversee quality parameters in India
D) Reliance being pushed to do more works then HAL is a baseless story. Its more towards creation of second line

All points posted as per Halloweene post from Rafale Sticky post (B C D)

 

[BDforever]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! U r too funny.

This is MADE IN INDIA.

The only fighter jet in the WORLD, to make it thru testing/designing/prototype without a single crash.

that because 60% component is outsourced and even aircraft design made by Dassault Rafale

 

[thesolar65]

Don't worry, France will blink first!!

 

[gslv mk3]

that because 60% component is outsourced and even aircraft design made by Dassault Rafale

Are you dumb ?

 

[niaz]

I think the issue here is not ‘Offset’ but who carries ultimate responsibility for the quality of product produced in the buying country.

To the best of my understanding; an offset agreement in one where a foreign purchaser requires the contractor to agree to purchase a predetermined level of components from subcontractors located within the purchasing nation.

There are 3 kinds of offset agreements; direct, indirect & semi direct. Since India has a relatively advanced domestic aircraft industry to be able to capitalize on benefits of the offset; it is safe to assume that Rafael deal is a direct offset agreement.

Most common direct offset transaction is where the seller agrees to coproduce specific components of its products or to obtain related services in the buying nation’s territory. Most common modus of execution being through coproduction, direct license production, and subcontractor production or maintenance agreements.

Thus far it appears to be simple, however in case of licence production, whether the seller or the buyer has the ultimate responsibility of the quality of the final product which incorporates components produced in the buying country is indeed a million dollars question.

Don't think that onus of responsibility for the components supplied by Dassault is an issue. I can however understand that it would be tough for the Dassault Aviation to accept responsibility for the components produced inside India. Especially where a very advanced & expensive piece of hardware such as Rafael is involved as any untoward occurrence would seriously hamper reputation of Rafael and thus frighten off possible future sales.

From the purely engineering point of view, this problem can be overcome by having an on-site testing laboratory staffed by Dassault personal. Each & every component manufactured in India is then put through a strict quality control regime before it is sent to the assembly line. However this would translate in increased cost.

I am of the view that given sufficient political pressure, this problem would be overcome.

 

[airmarshal]

Why should a high tech plane manufacturer like Dassault take full responsibility of a jet assembled by HAL? This arrogance is just baffling.

 

[gslv mk3]

Why should a high tech plane manufacturer like Dassault take full responsibility of a jet assembled by HAL? This arrogance is just baffling.

Coz they designed it.Understood ?

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@sancho @DrSomnath999 @Abingdonboy

The responsibility must be shared between Dassault and HAL
to the EXTENT of the components produced by them

Why will Dassault take responsibility for components and parts produced by HAL

 

[rockstarIN]

@h

All these tot requirements will only hurt the Indian airmen. They don't care who build the plane, that just want to have the best and an existing plane, not one that is stuck in development hell or purchasing hell.

Indian airmen is fine as of now. We had purchased su 30 without any such lengthy procedure and even m2k with only gun integrated. If anybody can't comply with our term , it's their problem.

 

[Speeder 2]

This is MADE IN INDIA.

The only fighter jet in the WORLD, to make it thru testing/designing/prototype without a single crash.

A major problem with any Indian thread is perfectly reflected by your post.

it's like to claim that

" because the suns shine with green lights when they arise from the South, it must because they are larger than the planet Earth which is of course the only one in the galaxy without a moon and with 2 legs."

you now know why?

With wild claims like that, many Indians seem to be intellectually disturbed enough to be able to manage to pack 4 lies and 3 logical fallacies into 1 short sentence to start with, and be happy about it.

Back to the claim
'"This is MADE IN INDIA.

The only fighter jet in the WORLD, to make it thru testing/designing/prototype without a single crash."


when a 4-yr-old assembles his block-builder toy house under the instruction of his parents, are you convinced that the 4-yr-old designed the toy and made the toy?

LCA is not the "only in the world" without a crash, , nor has it passed prototype phase yet, mind you.

As for designing? which part of LCA is designed by India, door aside?

a better question is why it took 30 years to barely assemble that block-builder toy you bought? and the assembling is not finished yet... imagine that 4-yr-old now is 34-yr-old and he is still struggling to finish assembling that block-builder toy house, and still under the close supervision of his parents while doing so...

...and you think the Dassault is stupid enough to let this 34-yr-old to build a replica of a real Efel tower on his own and be responsable for the outcome??

even what you said are all true, why the heck Indian air force refuses to buy them in masses as they are designed and planned for?


Nuff said.

 

[SR-91]

that because 60% component is outsourced and even aircraft design made by Dassault Rafale

Ok, so whats ur point?
Chinese copied their jets part to part, but still failed.
You are a hater,nothing more.

 

[rockstarIN]

@sancho @DrSomnath999 @Abingdonboy

The responsibility must be shared between Dassault and HAL
to the EXTENT of the components produced by them

Why will Dassault take responsibility for components and parts produced by HAL

I thunk that's the lesson we learned from mki and mig 21.