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Rafale deal: An expensive buy

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The purchase eats up defence acquisition budget


A highlight of French President Francois Hollande's India visit was the signing of a government-to-government agreement on the purchase of two squadrons of the Rafale multi-role fighter aircraft. But continuing price negotiations, already protracted, stand in the way of a formal contract. It bears recalling that the Rafale offer from Dassault was chosen over rival bids exactly four years ago, in January 2012. That was to have been a contract for 126 aircraft, of which the first 18 were to have been handed over by 2015, with the rest being assembled or made locally. Instead, the rapidly rising cost of the aircraft (deliberately under-stated by Dassault) forced the government last year to cancel the deal as unaffordable, and to decide on buying just two squadrons, without any condition for local assembly or manufacture. Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that the new, restricted deal would be concluded in about three months; but negotiations continue even after nine months. The cost, meanwhile, has ballooned to an astronomical $250 million per plane (about Rs 1,700 crore). That is equivalent to the cost of perhaps three or four heavier Su-MK30 planes from Russia, and about 10 of the home-made Tejas light combat aircraft (quoted price: Rs 162 crore). In truth, therefore, the Rafale continues to be unaffordable. The implication of buying a very expensive aircraft is that it will eat up a good chunk of the defence acquisition budget, leaving less money for other badly-needed equipment-for all the forces.

One reason for why the government is sticking with the Rafale may be that the air force is short of fighters, and inordinate time has already been invested in the purchase process. Arguably, the air force could simply buy many more Su-MK30s and scrap the Rafale deal. Two factors mitigate against this: the poor serviceability of the Russian plane (frequent engine failures, with barely half the 200-odd Sukhois air-worthy at any given time), and the poor logic in deploying heavy, fuel-guzzling planes in situations where smaller, lighter ones are better suited for the job. Fortunately, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has focused on improving Sukhoi serviceability through new deals on maintenance or spare parts which could improve engine life and cut down maintenance delays. Meanwhile, Hindustan Aeronautics is said to be expanding its servicing capabilities.

The high cost and poor serviceability of foreign aircraft (with long-term dependence for the supply of critical spare parts) underline the importance of developing indigenous capabilities. An important issue here is the reluctance on the part of the air force brass to invest time and energy in supporting the indigenisation process-a contrast with the navy's more productive stance. The air force brass has been quizzical of the Tejas light-combat aircraft project, at a time when replacements for the ageing MiG-21s are urgently required. Indeed, the air force has been so sold on the Rafale that it has even obfuscated on the joint project with the Russians to develop a fifth-generation fighter aircraft. Again, Mr Parrikar seems to have banged heads together, because the Indian Air Force and Hindustan Aeronautics have now agreed on the improvements that will be made to the Rafale (to improve its survivability and also ease of maintenance), following which orders for 100 aircraft will be placed. It is now up to HAL to ensure that it delivers on time and with the quality required.


http://www.business-standard.com/article/opinion/rafale-deal-an-expensive-buy-116012701150_1.html
 
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Its no an expensive buy,its an exteavagence. There are cheep and more potent platforms like su34&35 are available in market. But in my opinion Rafale-M will be a good option for IN's future vishal class carriers till the arrival of AMCA.
 
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Again, Mr Parrikar seems to have banged heads together, because the Indian Air Force and Hindustan Aeronautics have now agreed on the improvements that will be made to the Rafale (to improve its survivability and also ease of maintenance), following which orders for 100 aircraft will be placed. It is now up to HAL to ensure that it delivers on time and with the quality required.

It should be LCA right instead of the bolded Rafale ?
 
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maybe but a single squadron of these will down 4 or so of our enemies:-)
Both paf & plaaf are not a joke like Iraqis & erstwhile Yugoslavian airforces. So I don't think we can achieve 4:1 kill ratios with insanely overpriced bird. We need both numerical & quality edge.
 
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This article looks half baked. The main reason why we need Rafale is Sead, deep penetration terrian hugging mode etc which only mirage in our current inventory is partially capable of ( Ofcourse we do have Jaguar but they are not in this league (Single role fighter)). and infact the cost of last 42 MKI's was whopping 102 M $ each with huge maintenance costs. To be frank MKI is no way cheaper to own ( Purchase+ Maintenance). Looks like most of our media is too biased, and comparing MKI, Tejas with Rafale is like comparing apples and oranges.
 
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Cancel Rafael and buy more tejas mk1 and mka1 and mk2 this makes more sense plus announce new tejas mk3 with twin engines
 
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The purchase eats up defence acquisition budget


A highlight of French President Francois Hollande's India visit was the signing of a government-to-government agreement on the purchase of two squadrons of the Rafale multi-role fighter aircraft. But continuing price negotiations, already protracted, stand in the way of a formal contract. It bears recalling that the Rafale offer from Dassault was chosen over rival bids exactly four years ago, in January 2012. That was to have been a contract for 126 aircraft, of which the first 18 were to have been handed over by 2015, with the rest being assembled or made locally. Instead, the rapidly rising cost of the aircraft (deliberately under-stated by Dassault) forced the government last year to cancel the deal as unaffordable, and to decide on buying just two squadrons, without any condition for local assembly or manufacture. Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that the new, restricted deal would be concluded in about three months; but negotiations continue even after nine months. The cost, meanwhile, has ballooned to an astronomical $250 million per plane (about Rs 1,700 crore). That is equivalent to the cost of perhaps three or four heavier Su-MK30 planes from Russia, and about 10 of the home-made Tejas light combat aircraft (quoted price: Rs 162 crore). In truth, therefore, the Rafale continues to be unaffordable. The implication of buying a very expensive aircraft is that it will eat up a good chunk of the defence acquisition budget, leaving less money for other badly-needed equipment-for all the forces.

One reason for why the government is sticking with the Rafale may be that the air force is short of fighters, and inordinate time has already been invested in the purchase process. Arguably, the air force could simply buy many more Su-MK30s and scrap the Rafale deal. Two factors mitigate against this: the poor serviceability of the Russian plane (frequent engine failures, with barely half the 200-odd Sukhois air-worthy at any given time), and the poor logic in deploying heavy, fuel-guzzling planes in situations where smaller, lighter ones are better suited for the job. Fortunately, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has focused on improving Sukhoi serviceability through new deals on maintenance or spare parts which could improve engine life and cut down maintenance delays. Meanwhile, Hindustan Aeronautics is said to be expanding its servicing capabilities.

The high cost and poor serviceability of foreign aircraft (with long-term dependence for the supply of critical spare parts) underline the importance of developing indigenous capabilities. An important issue here is the reluctance on the part of the air force brass to invest time and energy in supporting the indigenisation process-a contrast with the navy's more productive stance. The air force brass has been quizzical of the Tejas light-combat aircraft project, at a time when replacements for the ageing MiG-21s are urgently required. Indeed, the air force has been so sold on the Rafale that it has even obfuscated on the joint project with the Russians to develop a fifth-generation fighter aircraft. Again, Mr Parrikar seems to have banged heads together, because the Indian Air Force and Hindustan Aeronautics have now agreed on the improvements that will be made to the Rafale (to improve its survivability and also ease of maintenance), following which orders for 100 aircraft will be placed. It is now up to HAL to ensure that it delivers on time and with the quality required.


http://www.business-standard.com/article/opinion/rafale-deal-an-expensive-buy-116012701150_1.html
Expensive compaared to what? The MKI? Not really, the latest batch of MKIs are costing the IAF >$100 million each and will offer FAR less availablity rates than the Rafale, will be FAR more expensive over their life cycle and won't be able to perform all of the Rafale's mission profiles (notebly low level strike missions).

Don't forget the IAF has not procured a new fighter jet type in over a decade.

In the face of all this what prescription is being given by the Indian media? Not a damn thing- just oppose for the sake of opposing, just to secure those oh so worhshiped TRPs. Let's allow the IAF to stagnate at current force levels (well below even the most conservative sanctioned strength sanctioned strength) all whilst its adversories are expanding. What kind of traitors are these?

By 2025, with just 2 SQNs of Rafale bought- the PAF's fighter wing will be as large as the IAF's- THINK ABOUT THAT. The PLAAF will have 3 fighters for every 1 IAF jet and about 1/3rd of the IAF will consist of single engined point defence fighters, never meant to fight over enemy territory.


150++ Rafales are needed, anything other than this prescription will be a provocation for India's enemies to hit the world's 3/4 largest economy come 2025. It's not hard, you have to invest in the future, you can't keep cribbing about a few rupees here and there as the IAF's strength is being systimatically eroded. Argue about costs when you are in a position to do so- India is not.

LCA and MKI are not viable substitues- get your head out of your a$$es.
 
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By:sputniknews.com

Stoic Silence: Dead End Looming Large for Rafale in India



NEW DELHI (Sputnik) — The alleged corruption in the scrapped AgustWestland helicopter deal and the obstinate position of both sides over the cost of the deal are threatening to send the protracted negotiations into cold storage forever.

Bharat Karnad, former member, India's National Security Council, confirms the conjecture, "The AgustaWestland corruption scandal has pretty much sunk the Rafale deal for fear that France's cultivation of interested parties over the past decade could end up tarring the ruling BJP regime in some way, considering a lot of the Indian Air Force brass and Ministry of Defense officials spanning the NDA and UPA governments may be implicated in any future investigation and who, in turn, may drag the relatively clean reputation of Narendra Modi & Co. through the mud."


The AgustaWestland controversy was triggered by an Italian High Court ruling that the initial three AgustaWestland VVIP choppers delivered to India actually failed their payload test, which implied that vested interests were involved in pushing through the deal despite quality concerns. The delivery of the remaining choppers has been cancelled.

Price is another factor that remains a bone of contention between the two sides. Earlier negotiations between India and France for the purchase of 126 Rafale failed owing to the price quoted by France, which India said was too high. Now, in fresh negotiations, India is expecting to procure 36 Rafale at a cost as economical as possible. During the negotiations for 126 Rafale, India's Defense Minister Parrikar had said that India would require at least 19 billion euro for 126 Rafale over a period of 10-11 years. But now he expects to clinch a deal for 36 Rafale at an even lower cost. In his statement in Parliament he said.

"We are trying our best to save money. If we purchase the required 36 Rafale, we will buy them at a price that's below the cost that was estimated when we were negotiating for 126 Rafale."

Based on the original cost for 126 Rafale agreed in the earlier negotiations, 36 Rafale would cost no more than 5 billion Euro. However, France quoted 7.5 billion euro for the 36 Rafale in April this year — a proposition India is reluctant to accept. Meanwhile, sources close to the French negotiating team suggest that the price offered by India is not acceptable to the Dassault Aviation, which already has a full order-book. As per a 2015 deal, the manufacturer has agreed to sell 24 Rafale to Egypt at a cost of 5.2 billion euro. It is also selling 24 Rafale to Qatar and expects Malaysia to place an order soon.

On the price factor, Bharat Karnad told Sputnik:


"India simply cannot afford investing in Tejas Mk-2, Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft or the Rafale — the three frontline projects on the Indian Air Force's menu. Because Su-50 is the future; Rafale becomes expendable. This is so because the present threats can be handled by the immediate augmentation of the Su-30MKI fleet by accelerating the LCA Mk-2 to speedy development and induction."

India was interested in buying 126 Rafale in 2007. But, negotiations were not unsuccessful because of the high price and unfavorable terms quoted by Dassault Aviation. During the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to France in April 2015, the Indian government conveyed to France that in view of the critical operational necessity for Multi-role combat Aircraft for Indian Air Force (IAF) India would like to acquire 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible. Subsequently, negotiations on charting an Inter-Governmental Agreement started in May 2015. However, India's Law & Justice department has made strong objections against the proposed Inter-Governmental Agreement...............Read more

1030064754.jpg
 
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By:www.dnaindia.com
Govt looking to conclude Rafale deal next month: Manohar Parrikar

Govt looking to conclude Rafale deal next month: Manohar Parrikar
The deal is in the last phase, says Parrikar. (Reuters)
Thu, 26 May 2016-07:03pm , New Delhi , PTI

The deal is in the last phase, says Parrikar.

The government is looking at concluding the much-hyped multi billion Euro Rafale deal next month, more than a year after Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced the purchase of 36 fighter jets during his visit to France.

"There is no reason why it should not be concluded in June. Not much is left. It is in the last phase," Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told PTI here in an interview.

Rejecting suggestions that there has been a delay in signing the contract for nearly 7.89 Billion Euros to procure the French fighter planes, the Minister said any such process takes at least 6-8 months.

"We started the process only in July last year. After Prime Minister's statement in April, everything came to us. We asked them (French) for various options. We met them and finally one line was decided," he said.

Noting that he is travelling for the next 8-10 days, the Minister said he will "see to it" that the deal is "concluded fast".

"Things have to be placed properly on the table. They (negotiating team) now have to submit a report to me on what has been discussed. After that we have to discuss it in the Cabinet. We will first sign an Inter Government Agreement. All these things take 3-4 weeks," he said.

The deal was announced by Modi in April last year during his visit to France when he said India would purchase 36 Rafales in a government-to-government contract.

Soon after the announcement, the Defence Ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafales, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.

The current deal comes with the clause of delivering 50% offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of new jobs in India through the offsets.

In fact, the toughest phase in the negotiations that began in July was to get the French to agree to 50% offsets in the deal.

Initially, Dassault Aviation was willing to agree to reinvest only 30% of the value of its contract in Indian entities to meet the offset obligations................Read more

464757-rafale-reuters.jpg
 
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Its no an expensive buy,its an exteavagence. There are cheep and more potent platforms like su34&35 are available in market. But in my opinion Rafale-M will be a good option for IN's future vishal class carriers till the arrival of AMCA.

Neither Su35/34 delivers 25% of Rafale.

For replacing 1 Rafale in our plans , we will need 1 Su35, 1 Su34 and 1 Growler .

Now calculate and see the cost of both systems and our budget and man power.

It should be LCA right instead of the bolded Rafale ?

Wait 2-3 hours , at least 30-40 more media articles will come up claiming how big mistake is Rafale, while doing the same mistake.
 
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Neither Su35/34 delivers 25% of Rafale.

For replacing 1 Rafale in our plans , we will need 1 Su35, 1 Su34 and 1 Growler .

Now calculate and see the cost of both systems and our budget and man power.


F-15SE could be an alternative

differences_internal_loadouts.jpg
 
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F-15SE could be an alternative

differences_internal_loadouts.jpg

F15 SE will fulfill and exceed the planned roles of Rafale in Air to Air , but it falls short in A2G, SEAD and EW capability.

Further it hasn't yet been offered, also it remains to be seen if we will get access to the radars or not.
 
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F15 SE will fulfill and exceed the planned roles of Rafale in Air to Air , but it falls short in A2G, SEAD and EW capability.

Further it hasn't yet been offered, also it remains to be seen if we will get access to the radars or not.

F-15SE can be outfitted like a regular F-15E so it's A2G capability isn't lost. and as for SEAD and EW I guess you are right F-15SE or E isn't built for that role.
 
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F-15SE can be outfitted like a regular F-15E so it's A2G capability isn't lost. and as for SEAD and EW I guess you are right F-15SE or E isn't built for that role.
But Sir look at it this way a single rafale can do the jobs of a Growler and a F15 or F/A-18

but still have 13 hardpoints to carry 9.5 tonnes of weapons and external fuel load which means in a single SEAD-DEAD sortie

2 X WVR HOBS missiles

4 X BVRs Meteor /MICA

3 X Feul /Drop tanks

2 X 3 LBGs/PGMs

2 X ARMs

and an LDP

all that in a single sortie as rafale is a "Omni Role Fighter" and was designed as a ground strike fighter bomber with full feged electronik warfare and fighter interceptor capability

instead of a air superiorty fighter interceptor roles like Flankers or Hornets or Vipers or Typhoons with limited air to ground capbility

now tell me which other plane can do so and add to that it has terrain hugging capabilty and very low mantinence

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