Rafael Releases New Member of Spike Family - Spike NLOS

[Archdemon]

The interesting is that Spike NLOS operational within IDF for over a decade, so it makes you wonder what is there concealed from our eyes

 

[Tshering22]

So at the begging you said the problem is "Disproportionate Response Strategy" which this strategy targets civilians as a matter of policy.

Israel always provoke the attacks which is what Moshe Dayan himself said "We cannot save each water pipe from explosion or each tree from being uprooted. We cannot prevent the murder of workers in orange groves or of families in their beds. But we can put a very high price on their blood, a price so high that it will no longer be worthwhile for the Arabs, the Arab armies, for the Arab states to pay it."

Either you don't understand english well or you are simply not able to get the points in the words. The reason why Dayan said this was to make sure that there is no Arab initiative into their territory. So basically his logic was, you send 1 tank to blast into Israeli territory, they send an entire armored brigade to inflict tenfold that damage after which no one would consider a repeat invasion of their country.

This is also a modern doctrine of two nuclear armed nations against each other. For example, if US were to even use a Tomahawk missile armed with a 10 kiloton nuke warhead, it would automatically cross the invisible line and justify a Russian retaliation with whatever megatons of response the Russians choose to respond with be it 10 or 100.

This is the concept of disproportionate response. It is usually applicable when surrendered by multiple hostiles threatening the existence of their entire country all the time. Please take out any rule book and tell me, where is it written that a response to an invasion or a military attack has to be proportionate in intensity to the one that is received? Nowhere. The whole point of retaliation is such that the enemy doesn't dare to strike again.

The IDF holds absolutely no value to human life if they think there is someone with a gun in a neighborhood they raise that neighborhood to the ground along with everyone in it. They don't care no one is going to investigate them no one is going to blame them for it.

IDF is a military force. Anyone gun-totting and having the possibility of being hostile to them automatically warrants a military counter-strike. This is applicable to even your own armed forces or even my country's. That's the whole point of militaries isn't it? BTW if IDF was that inhuman, the entire 1 million Gazans would have been wiped out long back. Don't you think that a country armed with some of the most deadliest weapons and with political immunity could have done that many years back if it was really that barbaric and inhuman as you accuse?

Just think logically and tell me.

The Israeli warfare doctrine is still the same from Moshe's era in Gaza they bombed entire neighborhoods almost every neighborhood was blown to blitz for "suspecting of targets" where are people supposed to go? Every one from Gaza was told to get out of their neighborhood through SMS so practically there was no where to go.

I don't think it can be that irrational mate. This is not WW2 era where intelligence is non-existent and where trial and error bombing is commonplace. Barring your dislike of Israel and my appreciation for them, Let's put this logically. Israel's main target is Hamas and Hizbolla rebels yeah? That means their military is trained to hunt these guys down. Which means by Israeli law, these guys are wanted threats to their country and anyone colluding with them is equally perceived as a threat to the nation (as is commonplace for ALL countries' militaries). Right?

So which means that these anti-Israeli elements by hiding among common Gazans are worse than what you accuse Israelis of; rather than protecting those whom they claim to fight for, they actually mingle with them and make them a target for Israeli jets. Since Israel is the enemy according to your logic, they shouldn't be caring should they? It should be these Hamas and Hizbolla guys who claim to be fighting and defending Gazans and all that should be taking the danger away from their common civilians.

Then what's the point of blaming Israeli soldiers? They are doing their job: retaliating against rocket strikes or terror attacks against common civilian Israelis.

 

[nightcrawler]

ummmm...nothing new putting some infra guidance in antitank missile...sth soviet done with their Kornet missiles. Using a two way guidance TV/infra

 

[Mosamania]

Either you don't understand english well or you are simply not able to get the points in the words. The reason why Dayan said this was to make sure that there is no Arab initiative into their territory. So basically his logic was, you send 1 tank to blast into Israeli territory, they send an entire armored brigade to inflict tenfold that damage after which no one would consider a repeat invasion of their country.

This is also a modern doctrine of two nuclear armed nations against each other. For example, if US were to even use a Tomahawk missile armed with a 10 kiloton nuke warhead, it would automatically cross the invisible line and justify a Russian retaliation with whatever megatons of response the Russians choose to respond with be it 10 or 100.

This is the concept of disproportionate response. It is usually applicable when surrendered by multiple hostiles threatening the existence of their entire country all the time. Please take out any rule book and tell me, where is it written that a response to an invasion or a military attack has to be proportionate in intensity to the one that is received? Nowhere. The whole point of retaliation is such that the enemy doesn't dare to strike again.




IDF is a military force. Anyone gun-totting and having the possibility of being hostile to them automatically warrants a military counter-strike. This is applicable to even your own armed forces or even my country's. That's the whole point of militaries isn't it? BTW if IDF was that inhuman, the entire 1 million Gazans would have been wiped out long back. Don't you think that a country armed with some of the most deadliest weapons and with political immunity could have done that many years back if it was really that barbaric and inhuman as you accuse?

Just think logically and tell me.



I don't think it can be that irrational mate. This is not WW2 era where intelligence is non-existent and where trial and error bombing is commonplace. Barring your dislike of Israel and my appreciation for them, Let's put this logically. Israel's main target is Hamas and Hizbolla rebels yeah? That means their military is trained to hunt these guys down. Which means by Israeli law, these guys are wanted threats to their country and anyone colluding with them is equally perceived as a threat to the nation (as is commonplace for ALL countries' militaries). Right?

So which means that these anti-Israeli elements by hiding among common Gazans are worse than what you accuse Israelis of; rather than protecting those whom they claim to fight for, they actually mingle with them and make them a target for Israeli jets. Since Israel is the enemy according to your logic, they shouldn't be caring should they? It should be these Hamas and Hizbolla guys who claim to be fighting and defending Gazans and all that should be taking the danger away from their common civilians.

Then what's the point of blaming Israeli soldiers? They are doing their job: retaliating against rocket strikes or terror attacks against common civilian Israelis.

Israel used to send an armored bulldozer into Syrian fire lines to draw their fire it wasn't the other way around mate.

And the way you condone that entire people be punished for the fault of one is despicable. You telling me when one man who had his wife and daughters killed by the Israeli military just for fun.

(this report is from a "BRITISH" news agency)

This disparate man who lost everything to Israel because of their immunity will be truly "inhuman" if he did not feel that he wants justice served and join those militants. So Israel is in an endless circle of feeding the fire and they want it this way if an arab commits a crime ALL arabs must pay for it. This is their mentality and it is quite apparent.

Look at this neighborhood in southern Beirut

They raised this entire neighborhood to the ground regardless if their are civilians in it or not. If no civilian was killed there (which is impossible) all the people of that neighborhood atleast lost all of their belongings and their homes. You tell me who's fault it is?

 

[500]

ummmm...nothing new putting some infra guidance in antitank missile...sth soviet done with their Kornet missiles. Using a two way guidance TV/infra

Soviets dont have anything even close to it. Americans developed similar systems:

EFOGM Anti-Armour Missile Vehicle - Army Technology
XM501 Non-Line-of-Sight Launch System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But canseled.

Israel used to send an armored bulldozer into Syrian fire lines to draw their fire it wasn't the other way around mate.

Syrians used to snipe tractors of Israeli farmers. Thats why Israelis start to send armored bulldozers.

You telling me when one man who had his wife and daughters killed by the Israeli military just for fun.

They were killed because coward Hamas terrorissts started a war and used their civilians as human shields.

In same year Saudi Arabia launched operation against yemeni Shias killing over 6000 people and depopulating entire villages. Turkey acted even much more brutally in 80-es and 90-es. So remove beam from ur own eye first.

They raised this entire neighborhood to the ground regardless if their are civilians in it or not. If no civilian was killed there (which is impossible) all the people of that neighborhood atleast lost all of their belongings and their homes. You tell me who's fault it is?

You can clearly see that only specific building were targeted. Israel issued warnings days before attacking them, so no civilian was hurt.

And I again repeat: this thread is about expensive missile with pinpoint accuracy. Those who want to kill civilians dont develope such missiles.

 

[Mosamania]

Soviets dont have anything even close to it.


Syrians used to snipe tractors of Israeli farmers. Thats why Israelis start to send armored bulldozers.


They were killed because coward Hamas terrorissts started a war and used their civilians as human shields.

In same year Saudi Arabia launched operation against yemeni Shias killing over 6000 people and depopulating entire villages. Turkey acted even much more brutally in 80-es and 90-es. So remove beam from ur own eye first.


You can clearly see that only specific building were targeted. Israel issued warnings days before attacking them, so no civilian was hurt.

And I again repeat: this thread is about expensive missile with pinpoint accuracy. Those who want to kill civilians dont develope such missiles.

Moshe Dayan himself said those farmers were sent to provoke a Syrian response not the other way around.

"Warning days before the attack" are you serious?? No army on earth say where it is going to attack they just sent their missiles there other wise there would be nobody to kill now would it??
Those missiles are not for Hamas or Hizzbullah these missiles are for the Arab armies that will once again come around knocking and both me and you know it. White Phosphorous was used extensively in the last conflicts those are the ones that killed the poor people not the guided missiles.

 

[500]

Moshe Dayan himself said those farmers were sent to provoke a Syrian response not the other way around.

Can u explain me why bulldozers are provoking Syrans? Israel just wanted Syrian to stop firing at their farmers.

"Warning days before the attack" are you serious??

I am very serious.

No army on earth say where it is going to attack they just sent their missiles there other wise there would be nobody to kill now would it??

These buildings were used to store ammunition.

Those missiles are not for Hamas or Hizzbullah these missiles are for the Arab armies that will once again come around knocking and both me and you know it.

These missiles were used against Hamas and Hezbollah as well. Here its used against rocket launchers in Gaza:

 

[nightcrawler]

ummmm...nothing new putting some infra guidance in antitank missile...sth soviet done with their Kornet missiles. Using a two way guidance TV/infra

Soviets dont have anything even close to it. Americans developed similar systems:

EFOGM Anti-Armour Missile Vehicle - Army Technology
XM501 Non-Line-of-Sight Launch System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But canseled.

thnx for replying
According to your own links NLOS weapons requiring nothing but a different or more precisely dual guidance system..thats why I wrote in my first post. Russians had those guidance sytems in their 80s era missiles like Kazoo & Kedge ...& I am referring to TV guidance.

NLOS or non line of sight basically means that the vehicle firing these weapons does not need to see the target, ie they do not need a direct line of sight on the target. Thus Russian examples of NLOS anti armour weapons would include all semi active laser homing artillery rounds from the 152mm Santimetr, the 240mm Smelchak, the 152mm Krasnopol, the 152mm and 155mm Krasnopol-M, the 122mm Kitolov-2M, the 120mm Gran.

plus you should read this inexpensive choice for NLOS:

DefenceDog: Kornet-EM New Capabilities of Antitank Guided Missile Systems
...see it has got the very guidance that make NLOS weapon

2. TV/Thermal imaging sight; 3.Integrated guidance system with automatic target tracker;

They also have the Hermes on the way which has MMW radar, IIR, semi active laser homing, and Satellite guided models in development.
KBP. HERMES Guided Weapon System


I THINK THAT BE ENOUGH

 

[500]

thnx for replying

My pleasure.

According to your own links NLOS weapons requiring nothing but a different or more precisely dual guidance system..thats why I wrote in my first post. Russians had those guidance sytems in their 80s era missiles like Kazoo & Kedge ...& I am referring to TV guidance.

These are huge air launched missiles, what it has to do with mobile anti tank missile system?

NLOS or non line of sight basically means that the vehicle firing these weapons does not need to see the target, ie they do not need a direct line of sight on the target. Thus Russian examples of NLOS anti armour weapons would include all semi active laser homing artillery rounds from the 152mm Santimetr, the 240mm Smelchak, the 152mm Krasnopol, the 152mm and 155mm Krasnopol-M, the 122mm Kitolov-2M, the 120mm Gran.

First of all these rounds need huge and heavy artillery system (Tamuz can be launched from Humvee or light APC).
Secondly these rounds need laser designation: UAV which can be shot down, or special force whcih can be killed. Tamuz guides autonomously. Also Laser designation can warn the target about incoming attack while Tamuz hits without any warning.

plus you should read this inexpensive choice for NLOS:

DefenceDog: Kornet-EM New Capabilities of Antitank Guided Missile Systems

This is nothing but regular 2nd generation ATGM. It can hit targets only within visual range and it should guide it during te whole time of flight.

They also have the Hermes on the way which has MMW radar, IIR, semi active laser homing, and Satellite guided models in development.
KBP. HERMES Guided Weapon System

As u can see, Russians understood that systems u listed cant replace NLOS anti tank missile. Thats why they are developing now Hermes. But its still only in developement. Tamuz is operational since 80-es.

 

[nightcrawler]

My pleasure.


These are huge air launched missiles, what it has to do with mobile anti tank missile system?

the notion of me saying all this is not abt size but relates to GUIDANCE system being used which is just a remote TV camera...which is perfected by Russians in the given era. That guidance is only needed to be incorporated in ATGM to make them NLOS..nothing dexter!!

First of all these rounds need huge and heavy artillery system (Tamuz can be launched from Humvee or light APC).
Secondly these rounds need laser designation: UAV which can be shot down, or special force whcih can be killed. Tamuz guides autonomously. Also Laser designation can warn the target about incoming attack while Tamuz hits without any warning.

Now we a re transgressing into an unending debate over guidance systems benefits...laser do have disadvantages but let me be straight laser receivers in ATGMs only need 1/250th power of their incident laser ray by designator to work out vector orientation ..& be on target.
Plus a PURE TV guided missile isn't that economically well..when an expensive IR/TV camera is destroyed PER missile
Talking about TAMAZ:

The Tammuz has been used by the IDF since the 1980s. It was used extensively during the 2006 Second Lebanon War as well as during the 2009 Operation Cast Lead in Gaza.

The missile is able to almost always ensure direct hits on targets, but at the same time it is a very expensive missile which costs a half million shekels per launch. For this reason, the cost of using Tammuz missiles during the Second Lebanon War reached about 300 million shekels.

This is nothing but regular 2nd generation ATGM. It can hit targets only within visual range and it should guide it during te whole time of flight.

Now you are quoting WIKi
Automatic launcher with four ready-to-fire guided missiles thereon is fitted with TV+IR sight incorporating high resolution TV cameras and third generation thermal imager, built-in laser range-finder and laser missile guidance channel and an automatic target tracker with laying drives.

Above isn't a 2nd gen ATGM in the least...but again cost...& Russians unlike west produce historical weapons that are CHEAP. I must say it will not take much Russian brains to fit in the ATGM all sort of complex guidance systems like MMW/IIR...but it raises penny to buy them

 

[500]

the notion of me saying all this is not abt size but relates to GUIDANCE system being used which is just a remote TV camera...which is perfected by Russians in the given era. That guidance is only needed to be incorporated in ATGM to make them NLOS..nothing dexter!!

Americans were developing two similar systems fo years, both were not finished.
Russia is developing now similar system for almost a decade, not finished yet.
Seems its not so easy as you think.

Now we a re transgressing into an unending debate over guidance systems benefits...laser do have disadvantages but let me be straight laser receivers in ATGMs only need 1/250th power of their incident laser ray by designator to work out vector orientation ..& be on target.
Plus a PURE TV guided missile isn't that economically well..when an expensive IR/TV camera is destroyed PER missile

Laser guidance systems which can withstand extreme acceleration of artilery rounds are not cheap either. But Tamuz is much more effective as I said.

Talking about TAMAZ:

The Tammuz has been used by the IDF since the 1980s. It was used extensively during the 2006 Second Lebanon War as well as during the 2009 Operation Cast Lead in Gaza.

The missile is able to almost always ensure direct hits on targets, but at the same time it is a very expensive missile which costs a half million shekels per launch. For this reason, the cost of using Tammuz missiles during the Second Lebanon War reached about 300 million shekels.

600 missiles are enough to destroy two armor divisions. 85 million $ is very little price for it. I guess they were fired extensively in 2006 because their service time was running out (about 20 years in service).

Now you are quoting WIKi

I did not read wiki, but since its well known fact its not surprising that we said the same thing.

Automatic launcher with four ready-to-fire guided missiles thereon is fitted with TV+IR sight incorporating high resolution TV cameras and third generation thermal imager, built-in laser range-finder and laser missile guidance channel and an automatic target tracker with laying drives.

Above isn't a 2nd gen ATGM in the least...

It is.

but again cost...& Russians unlike west produce historical weapons that are CHEAP. I must say it will not take much Russian brains to fit in the ATGM all sort of complex guidance systems like MMW/IIR...but it raises penny to buy them

1) Russian weapons are cheaper largely because of much lower wages compare to west + their weapon companies get raw materials almost free from the state.
2) Its MUCH cheaper to spend 40-45$ million and destroy tank division behind horizon, then enter into combat with them.
3) As u notced urself, Russians are developing the similar ATGM now.

 

[nightcrawler]

Laser guidance systems which can withstand extreme acceleration of artilery rounds are not cheap either. But Tamuz is much more effective as I said.
600 missiles are enough to destroy two armor divisions. 85 million $ is very little price for it. I guess they were fired extensively in 2006 because their service time was running out (about 20 years in service).

Relatively simple & cheap...for destroying armoured division enmasse mine preference would be a system like Smerch/Tornado rather TV guided bombs!! TV guided, I don't know why you don't admit are & will always be expensive because of the embedded precious electronic in them...as is explained later

I did not read wiki, but since its well known fact its not surprising that we said the same thing.
It is.

Forget about wiki & this whole generation drama even when applied to planes...many members here acknowledge it as ambiguous...bcz its arbitrarily chosen by each country. Lets dig into more technical document: MilParade.ru | #31 | CONCEPT OF THIRD-GENERATION ATGM SYSTEMS

Kornet is a 3rd gen system; I think you are feeling NLOS & fire-forget scheme as one & a same thing; even with laser guidance you can have an NLOS ATGM. One wheeled BMP fire a Kornet & is guided by another BMP mounted guidance system usually in NLOS orientation

The laser emission coding allows adjacent systems to deliver crisscross fire at different targets or at one target simultaneously.

1) Russian weapons are cheaper largely because of much lower wages compare to west + their weapon companies get raw materials almost free from the state.
2) Its MUCH cheaper to spend 40-45$ million and destroy tank division behind horizon, then enter into combat with them.

As I imply that fire-forget system isn't that dexter ...& is more expensive; such is also agreed by Russian authorities.

To this end, the Instrument Design Bureau has partially renounced the implementation of the fire-and-forget principle, which had previously been a virtually obligatory sign of the third- generation guided weapons, and created a combined system including the models with the implementation of the see-and-fire and fire-and-forget principles.

plus

In other words, it does not contain complex and expensive electronic and mechanical components, whereas the onboard equipment of the ATGW-3/LR system incorporates the infrared homing head with the matrix PCC photodetector distinguished by high complexity and cost of manufacture which, in its turn, greatly influences the cost of the missile itself.

You see its not the dexterity that hinder the fire-forget development its the economical feasibility something that capitalist Congress fail to assert in their decision making.

3) As u notced urself, Russians are developing the similar ATGM now.

Not for mass deployment; & certainly it ain't going to substitute the the good old MetisM & or konkur; which will be completely replaced by Kornet various versions

 

[500]

Relatively simple & cheap...

Not really. Guidance system that must resist 10,000 g acceleration is not simple and cheap at all.

for destroying armoured division enmasse mine preference would be a system like Smerch/Tornado rather TV guided bombs!!

MLRS are very effective vs dismantled infantry. It can be also used against armor concentrations. However when armor is spread its not effective at all.

TV guided, I don't know why you don't admit are & will always be expensive because of the embedded precious electronic in them...as is explained later

Tanks are much more expensive.

Forget about wiki & this whole generation drama even when applied to planes...many members here acknowledge it as ambiguous...bcz its arbitrarily chosen by each country. Lets dig into more technical document: MilParade.ru | #31 | CONCEPT OF THIRD-GENERATION ATGM SYSTEMS

Kornet is a 3rd gen system; I think you are feeling NLOS & fire-forget scheme as one & a same thing; even with laser guidance you can have an NLOS ATGM. One wheeled BMP fire a Kornet & is guided by another BMP mounted guidance system usually in NLOS orientation

Kornet is SACLOS system, typical 2nd gen.

As I imply that fire-forget system isn't that dexter ...& is more expensive; such is also agreed by Russian authorities.

Russians are developing their fire and forget Germes system for about a decade but still failed to finish.

You see its not the dexterity that hinder the fire-forget development its the economical feasibility something that capitalist Congress fail to assert in their decision making.

They failed to finish.

Not for mass deployment; & certainly it ain't going to substitute the the good old MetisM & or konkur; which will be completely replaced by Kornet various versions

No one says that Tamuz will replace all other ATGMs. Those few who will survive Tamuz will be met by TOWs and Spikes. I really dont envy those tankers who will attack against the Tamuz.

 

[nightcrawler]

So you again & again are asserting (despite the more clearer & UN-ambiguous source I provided) that its technology limitation of Russians that inhibit fire & forget development....
but yes not many SACLOS systems (according to WIKI) can do this

Kornet is a 3rd gen system; I think you are feeling NLOS & fire-forget scheme as one & a same thing; even with laser guidance you can have an NLOS ATGM. One wheeled BMP fire a Kornet & is guided by another BMP mounted guidance system usually in NLOS orientation

Not really. Guidance system that must resist 10,000 g acceleration is not simple and cheap at all.

I said Relatively. Already you have known about Kobra & Refleks system dated back to 70s!!...radio & laser guided ATGM projected via 125mm smooth bore; sure enough for Soviets those guidance system for as you put high g's was simple & is simpler

 

[Project 627]

500,

I very sorry too burst your "Israel is Superior too Russia bubble" but the fact is that the Russians have already finished developing their Fire and forget ATGM system.


PSSST, Its called Kornet-D

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