Questions!

[Omar1984]

Here's another wikipedia source about Punjabi Pakistanis.

The Punjabi people (Punjabi: پنجابی, ਪੰਜਾਬੀ also Panjabi people) are an Indo-Aryan ethnic group from South Asia (specifically Pakistan and India). They originate from the Punjab region, which has been host to some of the oldest civilizations in the world including one of the world's first and oldest civilizations, the Indus Valley Civilization. The Punjabi identity is primarily cultural and linguistic, with Punjabis being those whose first language is Punjabi, an Indo-European tongue. In recent times, however, the definition has been broadened to include also emigrants of Punjabi descent who maintain Punjabi cultural traditions, even when they no longer speak the language.

Punjabis are found mostly and primarily in the Punjab province of Pakistan, and additionally, a smaller number are found in the adjacent Punjab region of Northern India as well, which was divided between the two nations at independence from Britain. In India, Punjabi's represent about 3% of India's population. In Pakistan, Punjabis comprise the largest ethnic group at roughly 60% of the total population of the country, and reside predominantly in the province (state) of Punjab and Azad Kashmir. In India, Punjabi-speaking people can be found across the greater Punjab region which now comprises the states of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh and Delhi and the Union Territory of Chandigarh. Besides these, large communities are also found in the Jammu region of Jammu and Kashmir and the states of Rajasthan, Uttaranchal and Uttar Pradesh.

Punjabis in Pakistan
Punjabis make up almost 60% of the population of Pakistan. The Punjabis found in Pakistan are composed of various ethnic groups, social groups (caste) and economic groups. Groups with pre-Islamic ancestry include Punjabi Shaikhs, Kambohs, Gujjars, Dogars, Rahmani (Muslim Labana), Jats and Punjabi Rajputs (such as the Janjuas) predominate. Smaller groups include the Gakhars, Awans, and Arains, comprising the main tribes in the north, while Khagga, Bodla, Gilanis, Gardezis, Syeds and Quraishis are found in the south, many of whom claim Arab ancestry. Other more marginal groups are the Teli, Hajjam and Muslim Shaikh. There are Pashtun (see Punjabi Pathan) tribes like the Niazis and the Khakwanis, which are very much integrated into Punjabi village life. Especially the members of the Niazi tribe, who see themselves as Punjabis first. They have big communities in Mianwali, Bakkar, Lahore, Faisalabad, Sahiwal and Toba Tek Singh. The term biradari is often used to describe these groups. Punjabis in Pakistan, especially in major urban cities have diverse origins, with many post Islamic settlers tracing their origin to Afghanistan, Persia, Arabia, Kashmir, Turkey and Central Asia.[15] The Punjabi tribes of Indo-Scythian origin(Jat, Tarkhan, Khatri, Lohar, Rajput, Gujjar, Kamboj)form a majority in Punjab.These seven tribes are closely and indirectly related and connected to each other.

Punjabis have traditionally and historically been farmers and soldiers, which has transferred into modern times with their dominance of agriculture and military fields in Pakistan. In addition, Punjabis in Pakistan have been quite prominent politically, having had many elected Members of Parliament. As the most ardent supporters of a Pakistani state, the Punjabis in Pakistan have shown a strong predilection towards the adoption of the Urdu language, while still identifying themselves as ethnic Punjabis for the most part. Religious homogeneity remains elusive as a predominant Islamic Sunni-Shia population and a Christian minority have not completely wiped out diversity since the partition of British India. A variety of related sub-groups exist in Pakistan and are often considered by many Pakistani Punjabis to be simply regional Punjabis including the Seraikis (who overlap and are often considered transitional with the Sindhis) and Punjabi Pathans (which publications like Encyclopædia Britannica consider a transitional group between Punjabis and Pathans).

Punjabi people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[shravan]

http://www.nlauit.gov.pk/data/Paper Dr Durrani-Khairpur.pdf

Pakistani: Lingual Aspect
of
National Integration of Pakistan

Name: Dr. Attash Durrani
Designation: Project Director, Center of Excellence for Urdu Informatics
Organization: National Language Authority.

 

[Zob]

Punjabis and Pathans look very different, they can be easily told apart from their looks, dressing, language, mannerism and food.

Muhajirs of karachi pronounce their 'urdu' exactly like ganges plains indians

Punjabis of india look exactly like punjabis of pakistan

Sindhis of india look exactly like sindhis of pakistan

its what 'color' glasses you are wearing, if u want pakistan is 1 nation or 5 nations india 1 or 27. a nation is an idea, all the 'glorified justification' comes later. yes even for india, the question is, how human, benign, beneficial is the idea.

and we did not even talk about bangladesh

MY GOD FATEH....you seriously support the most absurd things at times.....how are our SINDHIS the same as yours and how are punjabis same on both the sides....i mean its like saying Koreans and Chinese are the same or japanese and THAI are the same....please don't tell me u can't tell an indian from a pakistani when you see one!!!!

 

[Nemesis]

MY GOD FATEH....you seriously support the most absurd things at times.....how are our SINDHIS the same as yours and how are punjabis same on both the sides....i mean its like saying Koreans and Chinese are the same or japanese and THAI are the same....please don't tell me u can't tell an indian from a pakistani when you see one!!!!

Pray tell how you tell a Pakistani from an Indian by seeing him? By how fair he is? His looks? You guys seem to think that Pakistanis are a foreign race in the sub-continent, that you are somehow different from Indians. I have no doubt there are major differences between south Indians and Pakistanis, or people from the north east and Pakistanis, but do tell how would you differentiate between an Indian Punjabi and a Pakistani Punjabi merely by appearance?

 

[Zob]

Instead of questioning me please answer are the koreans exactly the same looking as chinese.....or are the singaporean same looking as malaysians??

 

[Nemesis]

Yeah, because the Koreans and the Chinese have had the same sort of inter-mingling that Indians and Pakistanis has had over the course of history.

 

[notsuperstitious]

MY GOD FATEH....you seriously support the most absurd things at times.....how are our SINDHIS the same as yours and how are punjabis same on both the sides....i mean its like saying Koreans and Chinese are the same or japanese and THAI are the same....please don't tell me u can't tell an indian from a pakistani when you see one!!!!

Not just me, many pakistanis can't. so many on this forum are on record saying how Ajmal Kasab looks Indian.

 

[Omar1984]

Yeah, because the Koreans and the Chinese have had the same sort of inter-mingling that Indians and Pakistanis has had over the course of history.

Punjabis in India are a very very tiny minority (3% of India's population). Maybe some Pakistani Punjabis and some Indian Punjabis look similar but Pakistanis dont look the same like the rest of 95% plus Indian population because there was no intermingling going on with the 95% plus Indian population. Also Muslims would not intermingle with Sikhs and Hindus and Muslims existed in Pakistan's Punjab for over a thousand years so there's been no intermingling going on for over a thousand years.

You are very ignorant of the region. People in that region hardly married outside their subtribes (castes), what makes you think they married outside their religion. Now in Pakistan people are just starting to intermingle with other subtribes, ethnic groups, but you will never see someone in Pakistan marry outside their religion.

 

[Nemesis]

I don't think i can get through to you. There is no point discussing this. The only thing i'll say is this - The people who are part of South Asia are a mixture of Indo-Aryans and Dravidians. To say that their has been no inter-mingling is to ignore Historical process. And finally, this has nothing to do with religion, why do you keep bringing Islam into it? You do realise that South Asia was inhabited for over 2000 years before the arrival of Islam?

 

[Omar1984]

^ What happened over 1000 years ago, doesn't have much affect on the population today. You didnt give evidence that Pakistanis are a mixture of Aryans and Dravadians. In your wikipedia article you posted, the study took place in India NOT Pakistan. The study that takes place in India doesnt prove anything for all people of South Asia.

 

[Gabbar]

History of Punjab: The Aborigines of Punjab

First Settlers of Punjab Very little is known of the aboriginals of Punjab, who settled in the region thousands of years ago. It is generally accepted that the aborigines lived in caves and on the marshes of river banks. Their language was simple, they lived in small numbers and in isolated communities, and they generally wore animal skin to cover their bodies. Larger groups formed small tribes and became owners of flocks. The aborigines had little knowledge of the properties of metals, and used stones, clubs, and spears as hunting weapons.

Their Food The abundance of fruit, herbs and roots, and of beasts of prey, and feathered game, afforded the aborigines an easy means of subsistence. Hunting seems to have been the earliest occupation of these people. Those that lived on the rivers feasted on raw fish and flesh. Many of the aborigines were canibals, as those who lived to old age were slaugtered and feasted on by the young.
Their Race and Population The aborigines were a dark race and are expressly mentioned as such in the Rig Veda, the oldest living scripture in the world. According to the 1881 census, about 959,720 aborigines live in the Punjab. Majority of today's aborigines, who number about 20 million, who were driven out of Punjab by various invaders, generally live in the south-east of India or in the Himalyas mountains. These aborigines tend to live in the jungles, dense forests, and remote areas, and often practice magic and sorcery.


Belief System Unlike the Hindus, the aborigines observed no distinctions of caste. In addition, they buried their dead in the ground, beneath circular stones, mounds and perpendicular slabs, like the early inhabitants of Europe. The widows of the aborigines not only re-marry, but, usually marry the younger brothers of their deceased husbands. The modern Hindus generally abstain from eating beef; the aborigines feed alike on all flesh. In addition, among the aborigines, all ceremonies, civil or religous, is complete without drinking and dancing

 

[Gabbar]

Indus Valley Civilization This earliest known civilization that encompassed the Punjab dates back to about 3000 BC. Discovered in the 1920s, it was thought to have been confined to the valley of the river Indus, hence the name given to it was Indus Valley civilization. Very little is known of how and why this civilization came about, but it was a highly developed urban one and two of its towns, Mohenjodaro and Harappa, represent the high watermark of the settlements. Subsequent archaeological excavations established that the civilization was spread to a wide area in northwestern and western India. Thus this civilization is known as the Harappan civilization.

Indus Valley Civilization

Urban Development The emergence of this civilization is as remarkable as its stability for nearly a thousand years. All the cities were well planned and were built with baked bricks of the same size; the streets were laid at right angles with an elaborate system of covered drains. There was a fairly clear division of localities and houses were earmarked for the upper and lower strata of society. There were also public buildings, the most famous being the Great Bath at Mohenjodaro and the vast granaries. Production of several metals such as copper, bronze, lead and tin was also undertaken and some remnants of furnaces provide evidence of this fact. The discovery of kilns to make bricks support the fact that burnt bricks were used extensively in domestic and public buildings.





Art Work from Civilization
Occupations Evidence also points to the use of domesticated animals, including camels, goats, water buffaloes and fowls. The Harappans cultivated wheat, barley, peas and sesamum and were probably the first to grow and make clothes from cotton. Trade seemed to be a major activity at the Indus Valley and the sheer quantity of seals discovered suggest that each merchant or mercantile family owned its own seal. These seals are in various quadrangular shapes and sizes, each with a human or an animal figure carved on it. Discoveries suggest that the Harappan civilization had extensive trade relations with the neighbouring regions in India and with distant lands in the Persian Gulf and Sumer (Iraq).


Society and Religion The Harappan society was probably divided according to occupations and this also suggests the existence of an organized government. The figures of deities on seals indicate that the Harappans worshipped gods and goddesses in male and female forms and has also evolved some rituals and ceremonies. No monumental sculpture survives, but a large number of human figurines have been discovered, including a steatite bust of a man thought to be a priest, and a striking bronze dancing girl. Countless terra-cotta statues of Mother Goddess have been discovered suggesting that she was worshipped in nearly every home.


Decline of the Civilization By about 1700 BC, the Harappan culture was on the decline, due to repeated flooding of towns located on the river banks and ecological changes which forced agriculture to yield to the spreading desert. Some historians do not rule out invasions by barbarian tribes of the northwest as the cause of the decline. When the initial migrations of the Aryan people into India began about 1500 BC, the developed Harappan culture had already been practically wiped out.

 

[Gabbar]

History of Punjab: Aryan Conquest of the Punjab

The Aryans The mountains in the north-west is the primitive home of the Aryans, who migrated into the Punjab. Bands of these immigrants penetrated into the Punjab through the Himalyan passes. Being fresh from a cold northern country, they were very fair in color and called themselves Arya, meaning honourable. They bore the closest relation to the inhabitants of Iran and had a very similar language. Their first conquisition was the Punjab, and the period of when they invaded is uncertain, but is generally accepted they came some 2500 years ago, about 1500 B.C.


The Four Vedas During this time, the four Vedas, the oldest living scriptures in the world, composed around 1500-1700 BC, supplies evidence concerning the life of the Aryans who settled in the Punjab. The Rig Veda, meaning fount of knowledge, is regarded by Hindus as the highest, the most sacred scriptures. The Vedas are four in number, the Rig, the Sama, the Yajar and the Atharvan, and they are each a collection of hymns and prayers. The hymns belong to different ages, and, before the art of writing was introduced, were preserved by the saintly families to whom they are believed to have been revealed. In that shape, they were handed down for generations from father to son. Gradually, the hymns were written in Sanskrit during the later period of the Aryan existence.

Features and Language The Aryans of the Punjab bear a close resemblance to their brothers of the West with their straight noses and finely-chiselled features. They once spoke Sanskrit in its rude form, and also speak in a language common to Greek, Germanic, and Celtic languages. Even today, if one looks at the various Indian languages, one will find words common to many of the Western languages.


Battles Between Aryans and Early Inhabitants The Rig Veda provides evidence that the primitive Aryans were not allowed to settle in the Punjab unmolested as long and bloody struggles were maintained in the wild. The inhabitants dwelt in cities built of stone, and possessed horses, cattle and chariots. They fought desperately for hearth and home, and the Aryans lost many battles before being finally able to subdue the early inhabitants. The Aryans fought in chariots drawn by horses. They had swords, axes, bows, spears, trumpeters, and standard-bearers. Trumpets and drums were used to excite them to valorous deeds or to convey the orders of commanders. The drum is the most ancient instrument used by the Hindus and it roused the warlike spirit of the warriors.

Veneration for the Cow The Aryans were a people given more to the keeping and breeding of cattle than to the work of the plough. They were pastoral people, of nomadic habits. They often prayed their gods to bestow upon them many cows abounding in milk. The deities were invoked to protect the cows from misfortune, to increase the herds and to make the pastures green. The cow was pronounced to be the animal favored of the Al-mighty, and since it was so useful to man, its perservation became a religious obligation. The Aryans also kept humped oxen and camels.


Early Inhabitants of the Punjab
Their Organization and Civilization In their earlier colonies each father was the priest of his own family circle, and the vedic communities were organized into kingdoms. Those that were successful in war were often rewarded with slave women, dresses, cows, gold and chariots. The life of the Aryans of the Punjab was martial and manly. Their warlike character developed, and they adapted themselves to the conditions of tropical climate, very different than their cold, northern home. They dug channels for the purpose of irrigating their fields, and sowed beans, barley and sesame. They were acquainted with the arts of spinning and weaving and working of leather. They had among them carpenters, carriage makers, ship builders, goldsmiths, and other artisans. The possessed some knowledge of navigation; they had physicians who understood the healing properties of herbs. Also, monogamy seems to have been the rule, and a prince had to content himself with one wife.


Social Customs and Status of Woman Women enjoyed a higher social status in Vedic times than that now accorded to her. She was termed the light of the dwelling. She had the privilges of acquiring knowledge, and some of the most eloquent hymns in the Vedas are attributed to female authors, ladies and queens. Child-marriage, although not absolutely prohibited, was not encouraged. Distinctions of caste were unknown, and Brahminism represented a profession, not a distinct caste. The practice of sati, or the burning of a widow, was not sanctioned by the Vedas. In addition, unlike modern Hindus, the ancient Aryans held beef in esteem as an article of food. There were at one time beef-eating gods and beef-eating worshippers. The Aryans settlers of the Punjab were a spirit-drinking race and indulged freely in beer, wine, and spirit. Sages and sainds drank and offered the fermented juice to the gods. The Aryans buried their dead, often in mountains, where they would become prey to the birds.

 

[Gabbar]

Anybody willing to read about punjab's History can go to this site.

Punjab Online: History of Punjab

 

[Omar1984]

Anybody willing to read about punjab's History can go to this site.

Punjab Online: History of Punjab

Thats the Indian version. In that website they refer to Muslims who brought Islam to Punjab as "Mahomedans" and they refer to Muhammad Bin Qasim as "Kasim" which are insults to Muslims so I dont think that website is relaible when it talks about Muslims of Punjab.

I couldn't find a good Pakistani website about the history of Punjab. This is the closest I found.
Punjab Pakistan