Question About Jinnah

[Jackdaws]

What history have you been reading, your statement is fantastical.

Nehru was a leading figure in the congress, because his father was, much before Gandhi, Nehru just followed in his fathers footsteps. Nehru had extra marital relations with Edwina, Mountbatten's wife. And, was extremely close to lord Mountbatten, who showed him the new boundary line between India and Pakistan before it was made public, that's special privilege.

There is a world of difference between RSS and Muslim league, they do not even belong on the same planet, you are a nutcase if you think there are similarities.

What history have you been reading?

Nehru was sleeping with Mrs. Mountbatten so Mr. Mountbatten thought - "This lovely chap is sleeping my wife - let me be great friends with him."????

Radcliffe Line was made public AFTER Partition and there is proof that Nehru was ever shown any final boundary. Jinnah did make some fantastic demands though. He demanded Calcutta be a "shared city". He also demanded a "Mughal corridor" which connected the two wings of Pakistan and passed through Agra.

RSS are a bunch of hatemongers, I agree. I also concede I haven't read much of Muslim League's philosophy. But I do know that Muslim League with the exception of Jinnah was filled with landowners from Central India and Sindh. I don't recollect any Muslim Leaguer being jailed by the British or fighting for independence.

 

[Omar Al-Deek]

Okay. I have to take a break from social media to be focused on my studies but I thank warmly every person who has contributed to this thread and @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan I will tag you insha'Allah after I get a chance to watch the Jinnah film.

salaam

 

[peagle]

What history have you been reading?

Nehru was sleeping with Mrs. Mountbatten so Mr. Mountbatten thought - "This lovely chap is sleeping my wife - let me be great friends with him."????

Radcliffe Line was made public AFTER Partition and there is proof that Nehru was ever shown any final boundary. Jinnah did make some fantastic demands though. He demanded Calcutta be a "shared city". He also demanded a "Mughal corridor" which connected the two wings of Pakistan and passed through Agra.

RSS are a bunch of hatemongers, I agree. I also concede I haven't read much of Muslim League's philosophy. But I do know that Muslim League with the exception of Jinnah was filled with landowners from Central India and Sindh. I don't recollect any Muslim Leaguer being jailed by the British or fighting for independence.

If you have not read much about it then don't you think it is rather unfair of you to make fantastical comparisons. My main contention was to challenge your RSS/Muslim league claims and since you've admitted you don't know enough, then that is fine. So, that part is done.

On other issues, you are sorely mistaken and seriously ill-informed, but I don't have anymore time for PDF arguments for the time being, so I wont press on that.

And, lastly, your jail nostalgia, don't you Indians call people who get sent to jail terrorist these days, it is one thing to win your fight with the force of your arguments, but quiet another to go break something and get sent to jail. I can come to your house, throw a brick through your window and I'll be sent to jail, how hard is that.

Proving your point with the force of your argument, that's how civilised people do it, violence is always the last resort. Congress did what it wanted to do, sometimes co-operate sometimes threaten, that's silly, Muslim league, most especially Jinnah sahib, used their arguments quiet effectively and always kept the danda (stick) ready, if it was ever needed, it seems they managed to get what they wanted, that's ok then. Why go to jail when you don't have to, only an idiot would do that.

@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

 

[Rafi]

You are right. He only wanted to secure the political rights of Indian Muslims. That's why he accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan to keep India united under a much weaker central authority. I am younger than someone who has seen a lot more of India like @Joe Shearer - but in the last 6-7 years, I have seen such hate and vitriol directed against Muslims that I have never seen. Am I wrong, @Joe Shearer ? Social media has fueled it. But even mainstream media does it with impunity now.

Sad, but true I know I come across as very anti india, but I wish people especially my friends from there all the best. I am a nationalist first, my considered opinion is that South Asia needs a few generations to become sufficiently civilised for the modern world. Looks dark and shitty at the moment.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

If you have not read much about it then don't you think it is rather unfair of you to make fantastical comparisons. My main contention was to challenge your RSS/Muslim league claims and since you've admitted you don't know enough, then that is fine. So, that part is done.

On other issues, you are sorely mistaken and seriously ill-informed, but I don't have anymore time for PDF arguments for the time being, so I wont press on that.

And, lastly, your jail nostalgia, don't you Indians call people who get sent to jail terrorist these days, it is one thing to win your fight with the force of your arguments, but quiet another to go break something and get sent to jail. I can come to your house, throw a brick through your window and I'll be sent to jail, how hard is that.

Proving your point with the force of your argument, that's how civilised people do it, violence is always the last resort. Congress did what it wanted to do, sometimes co-operate sometimes threaten, that's silly, Muslim league, most especially Jinnah sahib, used their arguments quiet effectively and always kept the danda (stick) ready, if it was ever needed, it seems they managed to get what they wanted, that's ok then. Why go to jail when you don't have to, only an idiot would do that.

@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

I have long since stopped responding to or acknowledging Indian propaganda and fairy tales. If I want to read fiction, I will pick up a book, actually it will be enjoyable unlike the waste of time from these chronic liars and spinmasters.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Okay. I have to take a break from social media to be focused on my studies but I thank warmly every person who has contributed to this thread and @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan I will tag you insha'Allah after I get a chance to watch the Jinnah film.

salaam

wa alaikum assalam wrwb

May Allah swt give you success in your studies brother. Looking forward to having that discussion.

 

[peagle]

I have long since stopped responding to or acknowledging Indian propaganda and fairy tales. If I want to read fiction, I will pick up a book, actually it will be enjoyable unlike the waste of time from these chronic liars and spinmasters.

I've noticed these forums are not just about replying to each other, they are also about creating and spreading a narrative. Most people who seem to be online are not members, So, sometimes it is good to reply to such fairly tales, so that people who are visiting or reading as non-members do not end up thinking the Indian fairy tales are true.

Most visitors come here to learn or to explore, so the answers are not just for these drama queens, and their fairy tales, these answers are also about the people who visit this forum and perhaps are not fully aware, so sometimes, it might be worth answering them effectively, just so their version is not left as the final version.

I just checked now, 72 members are online and 638 visitors are online. That's the narrative audience.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You are right. He only wanted to secure the political rights of Indian Muslims. That's why he accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan to keep India united under a much weaker central authority. I am younger than someone who has seen a lot more of India like @Joe Shearer - but in the last 6-7 years, I have seen such hate and vitriol directed against Muslims that I have never seen. Am I wrong, @Joe Shearer ? Social media has fueled it. But even mainstream media does it with impunity now.

It has gone beyond tolerance, far beyond the limits of decency.

What is particularly enraging is that the combination of the five deadly castes is now preying on the Dalit with vastly enlarged impunity, and with the all-but-celebratory encouragement of the political leadership.

We are headed to Golgotha. The Muslims and now the Dalit are prey; we tend to forget that, even before that, the tribes were the prey. Only the dominant five (taking only north India) will survive with whole skins. All the rest, tribal, Dalit or Muslim, and, at some point of time not too far away, all of us are vulnerable who don't speak Hindi as a mother tongue.

 

[Joe Shearer]

But Hindutvadis and Indians tend to spread a lot of misinformation regarding us and our narratives.

These two are not the same, any more than Muslims and terrorists are the same.

 

[Signalian]

It has gone beyond tolerance, far beyond the limits of decency.

With your knowledge and experience, one would expect you to write books on Gandhi/Nehru/Jinnah and their face to face talks leading on to how India and Pakistan have shaped after 1947.

 

[Joe Shearer]

"yes, Hindu communalism like Modi/BJP/RSS/Savarkar is wrong, we reject that kind of ideology..... but Muslim League ideology and Hindutva are two sides of the same coin, one is Hindu communalism, one is Muslim communalism" and so this line of thought opposes both. It was promoted by Nehru and Maulana Azad.

It is a line of thought that goes back to Nehru and his kind of thinking as I understand it, I think it is generally promoted by pro-Congress party Indians and so I make this thread wondering as to how this line of thought can be responded to in a way that is pro-Pakistan. I think it is an Indian viewpoint and so I am curious as to other points of view in regards to that line of thought.

It is really not clear where you got this formulation from. Azad felt very clearly, as a committed Muslim, that a division of the country reduced the opportunity to progressively convert the entire country to the 'right' way of thinking; he, therefore, wanted India to stay united, and wanted the influence of the much greater undivided population of Muslims on his side.

Nehru did not have hostile feelings about the Muslims; he may well have had such towards Jinnah himself; it is tempting to see in his acquiescence to the very hostile reaction of those Congress people who had fought the Muslim League in their ill-starred attempt at governing together, a certain malicious pleasure at the thought of Jinnah's discomfiture.

Quite clearly, he had not thought through the situation.

 

[Joe Shearer]

With your knowledge and experience, one would expect you to write books on Gandhi/Nehru/Jinnah and their face to face talks leading on to how India and Pakistan have shaped after 1947.

To be honest, in PakTeaHouse, a mixed group of Indians and Pakistanis, under the magisterial guidance of YLH, had anticipated almost all of Jaswant Singh's book, that closely followed our deliberations. They are still available, on record, and even today make excellent reading.

As for a book today, I set out to write on Kashmir, but realised that others had covered almost the material I had intended to put it.

What is left is a series of disjointed notes on the sociology of the deaf, dumb and blind. That is to say, those who had voted Modi to power, and with appalling obduracy, continue that aaall was well.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

I've noticed these forums are not just about replying to each other, they are also about creating and spreading a narrative. Most people who seem to be online are not members, So, sometimes it is good to reply to such fairly tales, so that people who are visiting or reading as non-members do not end up thinking the Indian fairy tales are true.

Most visitors come here to learn or to explore, so the answers are not just for these drama queens, and their fairy tales, these answers are also about the people who visit this forum and perhaps are not fully aware, so sometimes, it might be worth answering them effectively, just so their version is not left as the final version.

I just checked now, 72 members are online and 638 visitors are online. That's the narrative audience.

Indeed brother, but I guess I do not see any benefit personally. The Indian narrative litters every crevice of the web, due mainly to the sheer mass of populations of Indians with internet access (not necessarily the etiquette on how to use it.)

After debating with Indian trolls and entertaining their games and drama, I simply have realized it is all an exercise in futility.

If a Chinese nailed club to the head cannot drive the point home, I don't think our kind and respectful manner will do it. We literally give the Indians more respect than they deserve.

About setting the narrative, the Pakistan nation has now taken the first steps, our PM is a master in narrative building, and ISPR is amplifying our physical attacks with their statements and using partnerships with world media to reveal their lies.

We must do what we can to further our narrative, and the best way is to deny the trolls the oxygen they need, which is attention.

If you notice, try ignoring them and see how they dissappear.

If all Pakistanis can stop responding to trolls who still think they are on quora, reddit, yt, fb, or twitter, we can start engaging in more fruitful discussions with fellow Pakistanis to advance the aims of our people and nation.

Thoughts? @Verve @masterchief_mirza @Musings @PAKISTANFOREVER @Dalit @TNT @PakFactor @SecularNationalist

 

[Musalman]

I appreciate your response but your take on General Zia is honestly kind of hurtful to me. I admire Zia very much.

My apologize if you are hurt. There was a time I was also in his favour. Now I think I was wrong.

I know that Zia wasn't perfect but I don't believe that Zia was a bigot. I think Zia was a pious Muslim who loved Islam and was trying to serve Islam.

Well I am not going to argue on that since it is your point of view. But at one side he is champion of Islamic brotherhood, on the other side he killed many Palestinians in Jordan. Islamic laws were half baked and unnecessary restrictions were put on free speech.

Minorities have to be protected and I don't believe there is any contradiction between Islamization and protecting the rights of religious minorities. In my view, true Islam and protecting the rights of religious minorities go hand in hand.

Although I am for declearing Ahmadi a non muslim sect as per the constitution. For that debate they were given ample time to plead their case. But Ordinance X of 1980 does not make any sense. I think that law is against the minorities.

I hope that we never forget the tragedy that happened to the Muslims in Spain and that we always remember how Muslim rule in Spain upheld the rights of the non-Muslims.

I am not against the rights of non Muslims Pakistanis

When you compare the rights of non-Muslims in Spain under Muslim rule and the atrocities inflicted on innocent Muslims in Spain after the fall of the Emirate of Granada- there is no comparison.

Where does Spain comes from ????

I know that General Zia wasn't perfect but I admire him very much and I believe that his heart was in the right place and I hope that Allah grants him a high place in Jannah.

Ameen to that since I am not the Judge, Allah (SWT) knows best who will go to Jannah and who will not. Never said he will rot in hell, I dunno who will and who will not.

As far as human rights are concerned, Islam is at the very forefront in the defense of human rights. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) defended human beings regardless of race over 1,400 years ago while the West has yet to catch up in this regard.

For past many years unfortunately we are not showing the world that we are fore runner of that tradition.

 

[Musalman]

Pakistan of 1977 to 1988 never went about killing, lunching and murdering its minorities on the streets, Churches and Mandirs were not burnt to the ground, that is a poor comparison.

I think we have killed alot many in the name of blasphemy.

What has been happening India, especially over the last few decades does not come close to anything that has happened in Pakistan.

The best way to mend yourself is to accept your mistakes. I think we Pakistanis are brave enough to accept ours.

People only keep mentioning the last 10 years of India because social media has bought everything to attention, but, please remember, this has been going on for far longer.

That I agree with you

India has had thousands of communal, caste and religious riots over the last 70 years, Pakistan barely a few.

True and we Muslims were part of that. Just for instance when Lahore was in its 12 gates and one 'mori , the Mughals created a separate town of Mughalpura, which was more developed just like todays DHA