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Qatar Rafale, Pak hands

While the rumors related to Pakistani pilots flying the Rafale may be exaggerated.
Indian pilots train and fly with F-16s from Singapore from the last ten years.
Did not help them squat on the 27th.

The same way, with the right leadership and training; Indian Rafale pilots can mow through the PAF.

It depends on the leadership, training and the psyche of the pilots in the air that day.
Indian test pilots and flight test engineers have even done their test pilot/flight test training on F-16s with USAFTPS....but you nailed it well in the last sentence.
 
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Thrust vectoring - practically useless in modern day combat.

Ah, this opinion must have come after hundreds of hours of flight time with TVC, right?

Whereas the actual operators of TVC would like to have TVC on all their air superiority jets.
 
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Thrust vectoring - practically useless in modern day combat.
SO why is it on the F22?


How Things Work: Thrust Vectoring

In a tight spot, you need zoom to maneuver.

Remember the scene in the movie Top Gun when Navy pilot Pete “Maverick” Mitchell gets the upper hand on his instructors by slowing down, pulling up the nose of his F-14 Tomcat, and watching his opponent fly right by? The idea was to get a quick, unexpected position behind the bad guy, putting Maverick (played by Tom Cruise) and his trusty sidekick Goose into place to win the Engagement.


Real fighter pilots will tell you that what Maverick does is a showoff move that bleeds off so much energy that you’re vulnerable to getting shot down yourself. What a pilot really needs is a way to quickly get in the right position to fire at the enemy. Today’s most maneuverable fighters use thrust vectoring, which can make a jet turn faster and more tightly.

Powered by Pratt & Whitney F119 turbofans, each with 35,000 pounds of thrust, the F-22A—the Air Force’s newest fighter—sports a nozzle that can direct exhaust thrust up or down as much as 24 degrees.

The advantage to pilots is superior low-speed and high angle-of-attack maneuverability, compared to conventional-thrust aircraft, says Second Lieutenant Aaron Hoke, a propulsion engineer on the U.S. Air Force team that manages the Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor program at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio.

Our [one-on-one] tactics have changed to incorporate the ‘post-stall’ regime, where other aircraft cannot operate,” explains Captain John “Rocks” Wagemann, who flies the F-22A in the First Fighter Wing at Langley Air Force Base in Virginia. Thrust vectoring enables the pilots to fly up and over in a very tight arc, Wagemann says, and “gives us the nose authority to turn the jet while the wings are stalled, similar to a controlled flat spin.”

Thanks to advanced computers and flight control systems, pilots don’t have to think about choosing vectoring or executing specific steps to perform a maneuver. They simply point the airplane where they want, and the onboard systems automatically coordinate the right combination of flaps, rudder, elevator, and nozzle angle. “The F119’s vectoring nozzle is integrated into the F-22 flight control system” so that “the pilot doesn’t control the nozzle independently,” says Chris Flynn, Pratt & Whitney’s F119 director.

Flaps in the engine nozzle point up or down to “steer” the jet exhaust, making the airplane more responsive and maneuverable. In a two-engine airplane like the F-22, directing the exhaust from both engines upward points the nose up, while reversing the direction points the nose down. The F119 engines are designed to vector in the same direction and by the same amount. The nozzle is said to be “two dimensional” when the shape of the throat is rectangular.

Flight tests of thrust-vectoring designs began in the early 1990s with airplanes like NASA’s modified F/A-18 and F-15, the Rockwell/MBB X-31, and a modified Air Force F-16. In 1994, the X-31 demonstrator was fitted with what German program managers called a “poor man’s thrust vectoring nozzle”—three paddle-like vanes that pushed into the exhaust stream—and the results were spectacular. Without thrust vectoring, the X-31 lost twice as often as it won against the F/A-18 in mock combat; with it, the X-31 didn’t lose once in 129 matches.

Theorists say air combat could be changed by the introduction of some maneuvers unique to thrust vectoring. A high angle-of-attack descending spiral is one. At a high angle of attack, a rudder loses its effectiveness, and being able to rely on thrust vectoring would let a pilot enter what’s essentially a controlled flat spin, yawing the airplane around to aim at a target without worrying about the rudder. The pilot also gets extra maneuverability at high altitudes, says Wagemann, “where the air density is so low that the flight control surfaces become significantly degraded.” Then there’s the super-tight J-turn, or even a modified hammerhead, in which an airplane appears to briefly fly backward.

One common misconception about thrust vectoring involves the flashy cobra maneuver, also known as Pugachev’s cobra, after Russian pilot Viktor Pugachev, who first wowed crowds with it in a Sukhoi Su-27 at the 1989 Paris Air Show. The maneuver is not an example of thrust vectoring. If the pilot is skilled enough, he can do the cobra in nearly any type of U.S. jet fighter. In essence, the pilot abruptly pulls the control yoke full aft while flying around 300 knots—about 345 mph—and thus pitches the nose up dramatically so the airplane is nearly standing on its tail. Just as abruptly, the pilot pushes the stick forward, dropping the nose back down. When the maneuver is flown correctly, with little change in altitude, the effect is like the striking of a cobra’s head.

Right now, the F-22A and the Russian Sukhoi Su-37 and Su-30MKI (flying with the Indian air force) are the only fighter aircraft with two-dimensional thrust vectoring nozzles.

More sophisticated designs, which have yet to fly beyond the testing stage, feature nozzle flaps that can move 17 to 20 degrees in nearly any direction, resulting in maneuvers around both the pitch and yaw axes. Both major U.S. fighter engine makers, Pratt & Whitney and General Electric, tested multi-axis vectored nozzles about a decade ago for an Air Force demonstration program.

Until thrust vectoring becomes more widespread, few will enjoy that extra edge—and that’s just fine with U.S. pilots. “Thrust vectoring provides such a significant advantage in the visual maneuvering arena that I rarely find myself in a defensive position,” says Wagemann. “When we start defensive, for training, you are almost always able to transition to offensive without getting shot.”
 
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Ah, this opinion must have come after hundreds of hours of flight time with TVC, right?

Whereas the actual operators of TVC would like to have TVC on all their air superiority jets.
and what is the TVC is useful for when AAMs have maneuverability/agility of more 50 Gs and TVC equipped jets can maneuver/agile as 10/11 Gs at max, that's why USAF/PLAAF don't use TVC because they know in modern combat TVC is Useless, only IAF/Rau AF/Malaysian air force use that @randomradio :crazy::crazy::crazy:
 
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Ah, this opinion must have come after hundreds of hours of flight time with TVC, right?

Whereas the actual operators of TVC would like to have TVC on all their air superiority jets.
No, after speaking to western pilots, who train for these scenarios day in, day out.

SO why is it on the F22?


How Things Work: Thrust Vectoring

In a tight spot, you need zoom to maneuver.

Remember the scene in the movie Top Gun when Navy pilot Pete “Maverick” Mitchell gets the upper hand on his instructors by slowing down, pulling up the nose of his F-14 Tomcat, and watching his opponent fly right by? The idea was to get a quick, unexpected position behind the bad guy, putting Maverick (played by Tom Cruise) and his trusty sidekick Goose into place to win the Engagement.


Real fighter pilots will tell you that what Maverick does is a showoff move that bleeds off so much energy that you’re vulnerable to getting shot down yourself. What a pilot really needs is a way to quickly get in the right position to fire at the enemy. Today’s most maneuverable fighters use thrust vectoring, which can make a jet turn faster and more tightly.

Powered by Pratt & Whitney F119 turbofans, each with 35,000 pounds of thrust, the F-22A—the Air Force’s newest fighter—sports a nozzle that can direct exhaust thrust up or down as much as 24 degrees.

The advantage to pilots is superior low-speed and high angle-of-attack maneuverability, compared to conventional-thrust aircraft, says Second Lieutenant Aaron Hoke, a propulsion engineer on the U.S. Air Force team that manages the Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor program at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio.

Our [one-on-one] tactics have changed to incorporate the ‘post-stall’ regime, where other aircraft cannot operate,” explains Captain John “Rocks” Wagemann, who flies the F-22A in the First Fighter Wing at Langley Air Force Base in Virginia. Thrust vectoring enables the pilots to fly up and over in a very tight arc, Wagemann says, and “gives us the nose authority to turn the jet while the wings are stalled, similar to a controlled flat spin.”

Thanks to advanced computers and flight control systems, pilots don’t have to think about choosing vectoring or executing specific steps to perform a maneuver. They simply point the airplane where they want, and the onboard systems automatically coordinate the right combination of flaps, rudder, elevator, and nozzle angle. “The F119’s vectoring nozzle is integrated into the F-22 flight control system” so that “the pilot doesn’t control the nozzle independently,” says Chris Flynn, Pratt & Whitney’s F119 director.

Flaps in the engine nozzle point up or down to “steer” the jet exhaust, making the airplane more responsive and maneuverable. In a two-engine airplane like the F-22, directing the exhaust from both engines upward points the nose up, while reversing the direction points the nose down. The F119 engines are designed to vector in the same direction and by the same amount. The nozzle is said to be “two dimensional” when the shape of the throat is rectangular.

Flight tests of thrust-vectoring designs began in the early 1990s with airplanes like NASA’s modified F/A-18 and F-15, the Rockwell/MBB X-31, and a modified Air Force F-16. In 1994, the X-31 demonstrator was fitted with what German program managers called a “poor man’s thrust vectoring nozzle”—three paddle-like vanes that pushed into the exhaust stream—and the results were spectacular. Without thrust vectoring, the X-31 lost twice as often as it won against the F/A-18 in mock combat; with it, the X-31 didn’t lose once in 129 matches.

Theorists say air combat could be changed by the introduction of some maneuvers unique to thrust vectoring. A high angle-of-attack descending spiral is one. At a high angle of attack, a rudder loses its effectiveness, and being able to rely on thrust vectoring would let a pilot enter what’s essentially a controlled flat spin, yawing the airplane around to aim at a target without worrying about the rudder. The pilot also gets extra maneuverability at high altitudes, says Wagemann, “where the air density is so low that the flight control surfaces become significantly degraded.” Then there’s the super-tight J-turn, or even a modified hammerhead, in which an airplane appears to briefly fly backward.

One common misconception about thrust vectoring involves the flashy cobra maneuver, also known as Pugachev’s cobra, after Russian pilot Viktor Pugachev, who first wowed crowds with it in a Sukhoi Su-27 at the 1989 Paris Air Show. The maneuver is not an example of thrust vectoring. If the pilot is skilled enough, he can do the cobra in nearly any type of U.S. jet fighter. In essence, the pilot abruptly pulls the control yoke full aft while flying around 300 knots—about 345 mph—and thus pitches the nose up dramatically so the airplane is nearly standing on its tail. Just as abruptly, the pilot pushes the stick forward, dropping the nose back down. When the maneuver is flown correctly, with little change in altitude, the effect is like the striking of a cobra’s head.

Right now, the F-22A and the Russian Sukhoi Su-37 and Su-30MKI (flying with the Indian air force) are the only fighter aircraft with two-dimensional thrust vectoring nozzles.

More sophisticated designs, which have yet to fly beyond the testing stage, feature nozzle flaps that can move 17 to 20 degrees in nearly any direction, resulting in maneuvers around both the pitch and yaw axes. Both major U.S. fighter engine makers, Pratt & Whitney and General Electric, tested multi-axis vectored nozzles about a decade ago for an Air Force demonstration program.

Until thrust vectoring becomes more widespread, few will enjoy that extra edge—and that’s just fine with U.S. pilots. “Thrust vectoring provides such a significant advantage in the visual maneuvering arena that I rarely find myself in a defensive position,” says Wagemann. “When we start defensive, for training, you are almost always able to transition to offensive without getting shot.”
and why isn't it on the F35?
 
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SO why is it on the F22?


How Things Work: Thrust Vectoring

In a tight spot, you need zoom to maneuver.

Remember the scene in the movie Top Gun when Navy pilot Pete “Maverick” Mitchell gets the upper hand on his instructors by slowing down, pulling up the nose of his F-14 Tomcat, and watching his opponent fly right by? The idea was to get a quick, unexpected position behind the bad guy, putting Maverick (played by Tom Cruise) and his trusty sidekick Goose into place to win the Engagement.


Real fighter pilots will tell you that what Maverick does is a showoff move that bleeds off so much energy that you’re vulnerable to getting shot down yourself. What a pilot really needs is a way to quickly get in the right position to fire at the enemy. Today’s most maneuverable fighters use thrust vectoring, which can make a jet turn faster and more tightly.

Powered by Pratt & Whitney F119 turbofans, each with 35,000 pounds of thrust, the F-22A—the Air Force’s newest fighter—sports a nozzle that can direct exhaust thrust up or down as much as 24 degrees.

The advantage to pilots is superior low-speed and high angle-of-attack maneuverability, compared to conventional-thrust aircraft, says Second Lieutenant Aaron Hoke, a propulsion engineer on the U.S. Air Force team that manages the Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor program at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio.

Our [one-on-one] tactics have changed to incorporate the ‘post-stall’ regime, where other aircraft cannot operate,” explains Captain John “Rocks” Wagemann, who flies the F-22A in the First Fighter Wing at Langley Air Force Base in Virginia. Thrust vectoring enables the pilots to fly up and over in a very tight arc, Wagemann says, and “gives us the nose authority to turn the jet while the wings are stalled, similar to a controlled flat spin.”

Thanks to advanced computers and flight control systems, pilots don’t have to think about choosing vectoring or executing specific steps to perform a maneuver. They simply point the airplane where they want, and the onboard systems automatically coordinate the right combination of flaps, rudder, elevator, and nozzle angle. “The F119’s vectoring nozzle is integrated into the F-22 flight control system” so that “the pilot doesn’t control the nozzle independently,” says Chris Flynn, Pratt & Whitney’s F119 director.

Flaps in the engine nozzle point up or down to “steer” the jet exhaust, making the airplane more responsive and maneuverable. In a two-engine airplane like the F-22, directing the exhaust from both engines upward points the nose up, while reversing the direction points the nose down. The F119 engines are designed to vector in the same direction and by the same amount. The nozzle is said to be “two dimensional” when the shape of the throat is rectangular.

Flight tests of thrust-vectoring designs began in the early 1990s with airplanes like NASA’s modified F/A-18 and F-15, the Rockwell/MBB X-31, and a modified Air Force F-16. In 1994, the X-31 demonstrator was fitted with what German program managers called a “poor man’s thrust vectoring nozzle”—three paddle-like vanes that pushed into the exhaust stream—and the results were spectacular. Without thrust vectoring, the X-31 lost twice as often as it won against the F/A-18 in mock combat; with it, the X-31 didn’t lose once in 129 matches.

Theorists say air combat could be changed by the introduction of some maneuvers unique to thrust vectoring. A high angle-of-attack descending spiral is one. At a high angle of attack, a rudder loses its effectiveness, and being able to rely on thrust vectoring would let a pilot enter what’s essentially a controlled flat spin, yawing the airplane around to aim at a target without worrying about the rudder. The pilot also gets extra maneuverability at high altitudes, says Wagemann, “where the air density is so low that the flight control surfaces become significantly degraded.” Then there’s the super-tight J-turn, or even a modified hammerhead, in which an airplane appears to briefly fly backward.

One common misconception about thrust vectoring involves the flashy cobra maneuver, also known as Pugachev’s cobra, after Russian pilot Viktor Pugachev, who first wowed crowds with it in a Sukhoi Su-27 at the 1989 Paris Air Show. The maneuver is not an example of thrust vectoring. If the pilot is skilled enough, he can do the cobra in nearly any type of U.S. jet fighter. In essence, the pilot abruptly pulls the control yoke full aft while flying around 300 knots—about 345 mph—and thus pitches the nose up dramatically so the airplane is nearly standing on its tail. Just as abruptly, the pilot pushes the stick forward, dropping the nose back down. When the maneuver is flown correctly, with little change in altitude, the effect is like the striking of a cobra’s head.

Right now, the F-22A and the Russian Sukhoi Su-37 and Su-30MKI (flying with the Indian air force) are the only fighter aircraft with two-dimensional thrust vectoring nozzles.

More sophisticated designs, which have yet to fly beyond the testing stage, feature nozzle flaps that can move 17 to 20 degrees in nearly any direction, resulting in maneuvers around both the pitch and yaw axes. Both major U.S. fighter engine makers, Pratt & Whitney and General Electric, tested multi-axis vectored nozzles about a decade ago for an Air Force demonstration program.

Until thrust vectoring becomes more widespread, few will enjoy that extra edge—and that’s just fine with U.S. pilots. “Thrust vectoring provides such a significant advantage in the visual maneuvering arena that I rarely find myself in a defensive position,” says Wagemann. “When we start defensive, for training, you are almost always able to transition to offensive without getting shot.”
its maintenance prone and very few of them, F-35 haven't TVC engine @Keysersoze
 
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another kak shoot by paranoid curry munchers. so what if they do fly the rafales.
what is the issue with these people every small thing they want to cry crocodile tears about.
 
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While the rumors related to Pakistani pilots flying the Rafale may be exaggerated.
Indian pilots train and fly with F-16s from Singapore from the last ten years.
Did not help them squat on the 27th.

The same way, with the right leadership and training; Indian Rafale pilots can mow through the PAF.

It depends on the leadership, training and the psyche of the pilots in the air that day.

Sir sorry for being off topic but I need your expert opinions.
The way Indian su30s performed, I mean they were detected earlier and so as locked early. Now the question is that the aircraft will be having Same RCS for the rest of the life so they might detect early again.
Now tell me sir how big this setback is for the Iaf....?
 
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It's not only that f-16 has become a average market product available to global nation's anyone can get their hands on it.
The mindsets are totally on opposite scales between Pakistani pilots versus Indians.
It's like Indians are plug & play devices on Microsoft hardware not programming pilots so to speak as an example of professionals. There is lack of skills gap for Indians. And it shows vividly.
Don't demean your adversary
there is no skill gap nor the gap in expertise. PAF successfully exploited the situation and its audacity shocked the Indians, the PAF leadership took the presumed victory of 26 Feb away from the Indian leadership after its own daring raid and air victories on 27th ((had that not happened...)

Indians would've been declared victorious had PAF not responded to their Balakot strike by bombing amd shooting down their jets .

the Indians came with force when they actially crossed the borders
and theu appeared to come from Bahawalpur and Lahore but dodged and came via Muzaffarabad and took a U turn ( job done) once our jets paced to skies over Muzaffarabad to intercrpt
its irrelevant if Indians hit mountains or not or did their ordinance even explode or not.
they managed to violate the airspace and returned safely. the rest of the world was more than willing and supporting Indian narrative about the raid. so, if that was the entire plan then IAF pilots did well

belief was that Pakistan will just rant and condemn and go quiet because IAF never intended to cause any real damage but had the diplomatic and media edge to sell a story to its liking.
Pakistan didnt play as expected by Americans/ Indians (yes I said Americans because they were absolutely supportive of this strike) and rest is history
 
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Then it may very much be Rafael vs Rafael in a round over Kashmir....

Hodri Meydan....

*According to the article Katari Rafaels use F16’s data link instead of the proprietary ones!!! Very strange!! Has Katar bought them to facilitate the usage by Pak???? Looks like during a time of grave escalation the entire Katari Air Force might “escape” to Pak with Mirage 2000s, Rafaels, Typhoons etc....
 
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Singapore has their own pilots. indian air force pilot just got training on Singapore F 16 to become familiar what PAF can do against them....but 27 feb shows that indians got zero knowledge about fighting Falcons.

Incorrect.

Singapore has its OCU squadron of F-16C/D Block 50's in Banglore due to lack of space for Singapore AF training needs. Singapore is a very small country. They use indian airspace and soil for training their own and ofcouse in the mean time they keep IAF obliged with exercises and all.

But yes its a shame IAF is still unaware of AMRAAM's potential. And F-16s ofcourse.
 
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