قہر برپا کیا تم نے نبیﷺکا نام لے کر

[Muhammad29psy]

Brothers, allow every one to express their ideologies.

 

[Divergent]

I don't understand why people refer so much to Sacred Scriptures regarding this matter. There is something called 'common logical sense' - use it.

Firstly if we look at the life of the Leader of Faith he showed countless amount of Mercy on numerous occasions which out numbers the amount of 'punishment' that took hold. Anyone who picks out military quotes is silly because this isn't a 'battlefield' situation.

Secondly, there are many things which aren't in the Scriptures and we are expected to use our own initiative. Please understand that. Clocks, phones, cars, motorcycles didn't exist. There's no manual on to how to use it but we've learnt it. Why? Because there's something called a 'Brain'.

A law should be compliant with the people of the land to ensure justice and also varies, dependable on region.

If people are taking 'advantage' of a certain law this further clarifies that there are loopholes and/or needs amendments.

As people it is essential to move forward and not 'linger' behind. The previous Scholars/leaders went forward and were very progressive. They were educants and very intelligent people who also took on and got on with daily affairs.

I can understand why there are 'blasphemy' laws because Pakistan isn't established to a point to replace it with 'Hate speech act' etc. Also because this MAN-MADE law is compliant to the community of people it governs. By stripping the Country of this law will lead to chaos as the secular extremists will further upset Muslim sentiments and it'd be a clash of titans affair.

The issue here is that this law since amendment has led to an increase of injustice and is misused. How can this be resolved? By in placing elements which withdraw it from being 'misused'.

This is achievable.

There should be an add on which clearly states:

- Anyone who accuses others 'falsely' of 'blasphemy' will face heavy charges and sentence for endangering another citizens life.

- Anyone who causes death will also meet the same end.

- Mentally challenged people are exempt and should be given medication/assistance

Watch how all this reduces the amount of false accusation and results to giving a more Just and fair perspective on both Faith and Country.

 

[padamchen]

@I.R.A

You sound surprised!

Why?

This is all open and common knowledge.

And has been discussed right here on PDF if you search carefully, using the correct key words ....

Peace be upon the world.

 

[I.R.A]

@I.R.A

You sound surprised!

Why?

This is all open and common knowledge.

And has been discussed right here on PDF if you search carefully, using the correct key words ....

Peace be upon the world.

May be ......... and may be I wasn't member back then ............. I am not good at searching this forum.

 

[padamchen]

May be ......... and may be I wasn't member back then ............. I am not good at searching this forum.

Neither was I. But really, every man has a certain amount of bile within him. Some less, some a lot.

But after the initial flurry of posts with the other side, the bile is spent, and most of what you had to say, gets said. Your positions chalked out. Nothing more to add really except engage the next hostile flag, repetitively.

One soon tires of India Pakistan India Pakistan as nauseam (if one has a brain, and a finite supply of bile).

One then finds more interesting topics to discuss. With more interesting people.

 

[I.R.A]

Neither was I. But really, every man has a certain amount of bile within him. Some less, some a lot.

But after the initial flurry of posts with the other side, the bile is spent, and most of what you had to say, gets said. Your positions chalked out. Nothing more to add really except engage the next hostile flag, repetitively.

One soon tires of India Pakistan India Pakistan as nauseam (if one has a brain, and a finite supply of bile).

One then finds more interesting topics to discuss. With more interesting people.

This is all your ancestors' doing (if that other docy thing really is true).

In this case this is more of a serious issue buddy, bigger than india Pakistan politics, humanity is at stake .......... correction of distorted history and meaning. Removing the alien corruption brought to pure social order. ............... it's easy to argue with you or indians ............ but it's a real test to face one of your own ........

 

[padamchen]

This is all your ancestors' doing (if that other docy thing really is true).

In this case this is more of a serious issue buddy, bigger than india Pakistan politics, humanity is at stake .......... correction of distorted history and meaning. Removing the alien corruption brought to pure social order. ............... it's easy to argue with you or indians ............ but it's a real test to face one of your own ........

I believe there is only one God.

He has come to the consciousness of different people at different points in time.

Through his Messengers.

If there is one God, there can only be one message.

But people are different. And the Message gets corrupted in the image of the people it was given to.

And spread by.

The oneness of belief and faith in the original message from the Messenger who comes from His own people is strongly linked to genetic identity and blood.

Which is why God sent different Messengers to different people at different points in the time continuum.

Which is why I personally do not believe in conversion. Because the faith I am born into is decided by God.

I believe it highly presumptuous that a mortal man comes to me with sword or book and either forces or convinces me to change my faith.

Two men undoing what God has done makes me laugh ....

 

[I.R.A]

@padamchen

Yar I don't know if I should reply to your post or not ............ lately people have been feeling insecure, my reply would make them feel I am domineering again, it would be based on scriptures again, it would address the blasphemous corruption they hold dear and holy. So I don't know ......... even if you are willing to argue still its a public forum and I don't want to offend others ............ not that I fear speaking the truth.

If you want you can watch testimonies of all those people (converts) who accepted Islam based on their own research and findings in Quran. There was no sword but just the book that made them think and ponder. And for past you can watch Lesley Hazleton and see for yourself what a Jew thinks ........... was it sword or was it book.

 

[Muhammad29psy]

No matter what religion you have or have believe on. If you have depth knowledge of it, and eager to keep your own grievance aside, you will find that, every religion is preaching nothing, but love, care and tolerance.

 

[padamchen]

@padamchen

Yar I don't know if I should reply to your post or not ............ lately people have been feeling insecure, my reply would make them feel I am domineering again, it would be based on scriptures again, it would address the blasphemous corruption they hold dear and holy. So I don't know ......... even if you are willing to argue still its a public forum and I don't want to offend others ............ not that I fear speaking the truth.

If you want you can watch testimonies of all those people (converts) who accepted Islam based on their own research and findings in Quran. There was no sword but just the book that made them think and ponder. And for past you can watch Lesley Hazleton and see for yourself what a Jew thinks ........... was it sword or was it book.

I am least bothered by insecure people. I have the normal human empathy for their burdens, but I have my own and no one seems to be willing to help me lift mine, so ....

I am sure you must have read about the amount of overlap and thread of continuum between the monotheistic great religions, starting from the Aryans of ancient Persia and then moving to the Semitic people and the Abrahamic faiths.

You would also know that these peoples did not live in airtight cocoons and there was historically huge overlaps geographically and politically.

The Jews actually found sanctuary with the great Persian kings. Ironic no, if you look at today's world and Israel and Iran? Not so ironic if you actually have a brain and understand the great game between the Jews and Persians.

With the Arabs as always secondary players. To the main plot ...

But I digress.

Zoroastrianism, to Judaism, to Christianity, to Islam.

One would need to either be blind, or especially unintelligent, not to see the global scale empire politics and ancient racial schisms that define these, rather than just take them as different faiths at war with each other across time.

 

[I.R.A]

But I digress.

Zoroastrianism, to Judaism, to Christianity, to Islam.

You said

the great Persian kings

Every single time before Quran message from God was distorted, changed, corrupted, and polluted to make room for HIS partners in shape of kings, sons and whatever, ........ to bring back those kings and help them subjugate and exploit humans again. and hence need for Moses, Jesus and Muhammad .......... all of them brought the same message except that finally God himself took responsibility to protect and safeguard Quran. You can watch what many scientists have to say .......... they all believe this couldn't be known by any human 1400 years ago.

You see the Persians converting to Islam not because all of them were held at the tip of sword but because they were freed, they were made to realise that they are humans and they are free from slavery and exploitation ............... Arabs plot may seem little to you .............. but they were carrying the final corruption free message from God.

When the Persian military leader Harmazan was brought in court of Omer (May ALLAH be pleased with him), Omar asked him so Harmazan what changed now .......... aren't these the same Arabs which you would defeat and humiliate easily every time? ............. so how come they defeated your great king and your great empire? .......... now it's interesting to read Harmazan's reply ..... he said Omer in past these Arabs were alone just, Arabs, divided into tribes .......... but now we see them united and God on their side, we can fight these Arabs any day and defeat them but we cannot fight God ....... Harmazan's life was spared in interesting event to follow but....

That was the start of revival of methods that would lead to exploitation of humans again, the start of intrigues ....... by distracting humans from Quran, they tries and failed at changing the Quran itself, so they worked on to invent something which would make those gullible believe and would appeare equally attractive for them and would help revive capitalism, kingdoms, slavery and subjugation of women again ............. and they called that parallel religion Hadeeth. The big loss was assassination of Omer (May ALLAH be pleased with him), because Persians saw him to be the biggest hurdle in their way. Arabs were not familiar with politics and Persians were masters at it.

 

[padamchen]

You said

Every single time before Quran message from God was distorted, changed, corrupted, and polluted to make room for HIS partners in shape of kings, sons and whatever, ........ to bring back those kings and help them subjugate and exploit humans again. and hence need for Moses, Jesus and Muhammad .......... all of them brought the same message except that finally God himself took responsibility to protect and safeguard Quran. You can watch what many scientists have to say .......... they all believe this couldn't be known by any human 1400 years ago.

You see the Persians converting to Islam not because all of them were held at the tip of sword but because they were freed, they were made to realise that they are humans and they are free from slavery and exploitation ............... Arabs plot may seem little to you .............. but they were carrying the final corruption free message from God.

When the Persian military leader Harmazan was brought in court of Omer (May ALLAH be pleased with him), Omar asked him so Harmazan what changed now .......... aren't these the same Arabs which you would defeat and humiliate easily every time? ............. so how come they defeated your great king and your great empire? .......... now it's interesting to read Harmazan's reply ..... he said Omer in past these Arabs were alone just, Arabs, divided into tribes .......... but now we see them united and God on their side, we can fight these Arabs any day and defeat them but we cannot fight God ....... Harmazan's life was spared in interesting event to follow but....

That was the start of revival of methods that would lead to exploitation of humans again, the start of intrigues ....... by distracting humans from Quran, they tries and failed at changing the Quran itself, so they worked on to invent something which would make those gullible believe and would appeare equally attractive for them and would help revive capitalism, kingdoms, slavery and subjugation of women again ............. and they called that parallel religion Hadeeth. The big loss was assassination of Omer (May ALLAH be pleased with him), because Persians saw him to be the biggest hurdle in their way. Arabs were not familiar with politics and Persians were masters at it.

See I am only an Indian, and not overly conversant in Middle Eastern politics, or history, etc. but I will try and place before you my view of the whole thing.

There is a reason why the whole of Persia eventually became Muslim and India did not. And it was not because the Indians were more in number, or that the Indians were better fighters than the Persians were. Not when you had the Persians ruling most of the civilized world at one time or the other through military conquest. Not when you had the Persians being the military superpower of a bipolar world (the Greeks and Romans being the other) for near on 2000 years.

The reason Persians converted eventually en masse after 300 years of war and subjugation was simply fatigue and convenience. Nothing more, nothing less. They had been broken militarily 300 years earlier. Were no longer the force they once were. The tide had turned. But most importantly, Islam was based on the general tenets of their ancestral faith, in fact borrowed much from it, as did Judaism and Christianity before it. And it meant one could live as an equal, not pay tax, not be a dhimmi/kafir, and move on with life, if one simply started calling God Allah instead of Ahura Mazda.

Hinduism could not do that. And hence the conflict there was much more fundamental. And the resistance. There was and is simply no common ground.

It is interesting though that thee Arabs, most Muslims (and you in your post I refer to), consider Zoroastrians "people of the Book", including your original Sahabas (sp?) who entered Persia after the conquests, BUT there is no mention of Zarathushtra in either the Quran or your later literature or theology.

I see this interesting and not a little contradictory and suspicious to be honest. And it convinces me even more of the racial angle. After all, Moses and Jesus were both Semitic, as Muhammad was. Zarathushtra was an Aryan Persian. Do you see where I am going with this?

I see Christianity as the newer version of Judaism, both having been originally revealed to essentially the same people. Maybe they needed the message twice. Who knows ...

Islam on the other hand came from a soil and a people which up until that time had not yet received the message. But then equally, from and within a people who had had contact for millennia, and had fought and been ruled by all of the above three, especially the first, for large periods of time. So the concepts were not virgin or unknown to them at all. They were just Arab now. And hence THEIRS.

Now coming back to the Persians and the fall of their ancestral faith and the conquest of their land. Their civilization. And gradual and eventual conversion to Islam.

It is interesting that once the Persians reasserted themselves, and in fact invaded their civilizational cousins, the Indians, under the banner of Islam, they began to insidiously rebel against the Arabification of their society and their culture. But by now they were Muslim, and had been Muslim for many hundred years. Zoroastrianism had been crushed on the soil of its birth, and driven from its land. There was state persecution and erosion and destruction of ancestral memory.

It was thus not possible to go back to being Zoroastrians. But they could not stop nor help being Persian. As their culture and civilization reasserted itself over their adopted faith.

Hence they Zoroastrianized Islam. And Persianised it. While still calling God Allah, they essentially moulded the Arabic version to their own.

And then set out to control and eventually own it.

So the fight we see in the Middle East today, is for control of the ancient empires. And their versions of faith. Between the same combatants. Nothing has essentially changed. Just the weapons have.

The Persians vs the Jews and the Christians vs the Arabs.

Over to you ...

P.S. A short word about Pakistan.

Pakistan is on the periphery of this fight. As it has been historically as well. For no other reason than the fact that Pakistan is seen as Hindu by both the Persians and the Arabs. Hindu stock. Not current practicing faith.

Plus Pakistan has no oil.

What Pakistan does have is a powerful military and nukes and ready and able foot soldiers (of the non uniformed kind) for both Middle Eastern combatants to be interested in having their extended sphere of influence inside Pakistan.

But it is my belief that neither really considers Pakistan as a player on the Islamic stage per se. Looking at the larger picture of the eventual ownership and control of Islam.

I think this completes my post.

 

[I.R.A]

Thank you for your effort and being honest. It's always a pleasure discussing this with you.

We have already discussed this Middle Eastern politics and power game, both of us agree that it is not a recent conflict but centuries old, however, what has changed? The Shabah you refer to in your post and current Muslims or Arab leaders they are not the same ............... the biggest difference Sahabah entered Persia and conquerors and freedom fighters (for humanity) and current Arabs they are looking to others to save them and fight for them. And most importantly Shabah were following a Deen whereas most of us today (including me) follow a religion .... big difference.

You tried telling us that Islamic tenets were essentially the same listing the freedom people were enjoying ..... but you conveniently ignore "Yazd Gard" the Persian Emperor / king was killed none other by a commoner of his kingdom while he was trying to hide. Second Islamic tenets and Zoroastrian beliefs if these were same you would have seen Emperors and not Caliphs ...... again big difference. Persia would have burnt, nothing would have remained of their civilisation ......... but we see them celebrating noroz even today, they have built a tomb for murderer of Omar. Omar wished not to enter Persia ........ he was a visionary ....... he wished there was a wall of fire and water between Persians and Arabs, and Arabs would restrict themselves to Iraq only ......... but constant insurgencies forced him to go after the root cause.

Indian conquest is recent compared to Persia ....... in the meantime lot happened and lot changed. Muslims started believing the corrupted message ........ they started being Kings and inheritance of kingship.

Now I will try replying to some essential points raised by you

But most importantly, Islam was based on the general tenets of their ancestral faith, in fact borrowed much from it, as did Judaism and Christianity before it. And it meant one could live as an equal, not pay tax, not be a dhimmi/kafir, and move on with life, if one simply started calling God Allah instead of Ahura Mazda.

Islam nowhere permits declaring any one God's son, whereas this was general belief amongst Persians that their King is descendant of God on Earth. I remember I told you before one of Persian princess was married to grandson of Messenger Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and hence you see to date the reverence attached to him all visible more prominently in Iran. What you think is resemblance is what I call corruption, molding of a pure message to suit one's old habits and beliefs ......... unfortunately majority follow that diluted message and belief today in Muslim world. Islam essentially requires that sovereignty and rule is only and only for ALLAH, humans can consult and appoint a leader to manage their state affairs but none of them is permitted to enslave other humans.

The resemblance between Zoroastrian beliefs and today's Muslims ......... like praying equal number of times a day, believing in bridge, celebrating a day and believe that fate(s) are decided on this particular day ....... none of these can be traced back to Quran.

Hence they Zoroastrianized Islam. And Persianised it. While still calling God Allah, they essentially moulded the Arabic version to their own.

Thank you ......... and reason for my crying.

The Persians vs the Jews and the Christians vs the Arabs.

Persians vs the Christians and both of them vs Muslims would be the true picture ........ Jews are a very recent entry.

P.S. A short word about Pakistan.

Pakistan is on the periphery of this fight. As it has been historically as well. For no other reason than the fact that Pakistan is seen as Hindu by both the Persians and the Arabs. Hindu stock. Not current practicing faith.

Plus Pakistan has no oil.

What Pakistan does have is a powerful military and nukes and ready and able foot soldiers (of the non uniformed kind) for both Middle Eastern combatants to be interested in having their extended sphere of influence inside Pakistan.

But it is my belief that neither really considers Pakistan as a player on the Islamic stage per se. Looking at the larger picture of the eventual ownership and control of Islam.

I think this completes my post.

Pakistan is young, it still has a long way to go. If they could figure out what was the driving force that made Muslims once rulers of 2.2 million square miles of territory and what is responsible for their current deteriorating condition ....... Pakistan was founded based on implementation of that, it will meet its destiny one day. The fight against corrupted message is not new .......... it will evolve and keep going on until one day Pakistan becomes a Quranic society with or without Arabs and Iranians.

 

[padamchen]

Thank you for your effort and being honest. It's always a pleasure discussing this with you.

I'm glad to find someone to discuss this with as well. The pleasure is all mine, maybe a little of it is yours as well.

And most importantly Shabah were following a Deen whereas most of us today (including me) follow a religion .... big difference.

I'd like to understand this further. The difference between faith and personal belief (and its resulting drive) versus organized religion one is born into and follows by rote?

You tried telling us that Islamic tenets were essentially the same listing the freedom people were enjoying ..... but you conveniently ignore "Yazd Gard" the Persian Emperor / king was killed none other by a commoner of his kingdom while he was trying to hide.

I do not know much of the battles of the time, or the rulers. I know Persia was a shadow of its former self. As was Rome. Both civilizations fatigued by 2000 years of war. I know there was a degree of despotism not common to the older Persian kings and emperors. As Persia struggled to hold on to its vassal states territorially.

But that was political. An analogy if you will was the fall of Saddam and the Iraqis welcoming the American forces.

What happened after that? Did the Iraqis become Yankees and wave the American flag? Did the Iraqis become a democracy at the barrel end of a gun? No.

Second Islamic tenets and Zoroastrian beliefs if these were same you would have seen Emperors and not Caliphs ...... again big difference. Persia would have burnt, nothing would have remained of their civilisation ......... but we see them celebrating noroz even today, they have built a tomb for murderer of Omar. Omar wished not to enter Persia ........ he was a visionary ....... he wished there was a wall of fire and water between Persians and Arabs, and Arabs would restrict themselves to Iraq only ......... but constant insurgencies forced him to go after the root cause.

Much of the similarities, common between the 3 Abrahamic faiths and Persian Zoroastrianism, is not specific only to Shia Islam alone. I do agree (and have agreed) that Shia Islam seems to be a LOT closer to Zoroastrianism than Sunni Islam, but that is a matter of degrees. I hear what you are saying though, as you struggle to convince your coreligionists here that it is not just Shia Islam which is "corrupted" but indeed the Hadeeth themselves - primarily driven by the Persians, 300 years after Muhammad's time. This is interesting and priorly unknown to me. But I guess we are both agreed on the fact that within Islam, Arabs and Persians are oil and water, which a a fundamental problem, because the war within Islam today is being driven by exactly these two poles. I do note also that later in your post you go to pains to differentiate Persians from Muslims per se, which is of course something no Iranian is going to agree to. Because they will go to great pains to inform you that while Muhammad was an Arab, Islam per se is NOT Arabic. Which personally I believe is bollocks. But then, I'm just an Indian.

Also would appreciate a word from you explaining your point about Emperors and Caliphs. Lineage by birth and divine position in society versus a democratic leader? As below?

Indian conquest is recent compared to Persia ....... in the meantime lot happened and lot changed. Muslims started believing the corrupted message ........ they started being Kings and inheritance of kingship.

Islam nowhere permits declaring any one God's son, whereas this was general belief amongst Persians that their King is descendant of God on Earth. I remember I told you before one of Persian princess was married to grandson of Messenger Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and hence you see to date the reverence attached to him all visible more prominently in Iran. What you think is resemblance is what I call corruption, molding of a pure message to suit one's old habits and beliefs ......... unfortunately majority follow that diluted message and belief today in Muslim world. Islam essentially requires that sovereignty and rule is only and only for ALLAH, humans can consult and appoint a leader to manage their state affairs but none of them is permitted to enslave other humans.

The resemblance between Zoroastrian beliefs and today's Muslims ......... like praying equal number of times a day, believing in bridge, celebrating a day and believe that fate(s) are decided on this particular day ....... none of these can be traced back to Quran.

Interesting. Which means then that the Persians are winning the PR war. Because the non Muslim world does not know this, that much is obvious. But seems from what you are saying, even a large majority of the Muslim world does not know this.

Just so I am clearer, do your ideas and beliefs belong to a particular school of Islamic belief? Like Salafi, Hanafi, etc. I know you have always been at pains in saying that there is only one Islam, and that you do not believe in the Sunni and Shia bit. So was interested in knowing if there was a name to this school of unified non sectarian thought.

Thank you ......... and reason for my crying.

I understand perfectly. We all cry for different things. The world of humans is not a perfect place.

Persians vs the Christians and both of them vs Muslims would be the true picture ........ Jews are a very recent entry.

The Jews and Christians are obviously double teaming. Putting aside old pogroms. I guess what you mean by the above is that Arabs are Muslims and Persians are not. As referred to by me earlier in my post. Its a bit less simplistic than that. Seeing as to how the Iranians and proxies seem to be having the upper hand currently in the Middle East. Insofar as that is concerned, it has always been my belief that the Persians are natural allies of the Americans, but cannot be controlled, unlike the Arabs, and so are not and were not. And probably will never be, short of a relationship of equals. Which we both know is not how the US of A works. That the Persians are actually double teaming with the Jews I have little doubt about and this entire nuclear bogey hauwaa is just that. A bs red herring.

Pakistan is young, it still has a long way to go. If they could figure out what was the driving force that made Muslims once rulers of 2.2 million square miles of territory and what is responsible for their current deteriorating condition ....... Pakistan was founded based on implementation of that, it will meet its destiny one day. The fight against corrupted message is not new .......... it will evolve and keep going on until one day Pakistan becomes a Quranic society with or without Arabs and Iranians.

I'll allow you to have the last word on Pakistan as a Pakistani. But if Pakistan continues on its current path, it will continue to punch way below its weight in the Muslim equation. And sadly be seen as guns for hire by the big two.

 

[I.R.A]

The Jews and Christians are obviously double teaming. Putting aside old pogroms. I guess what you mean by the above is that Arabs are Muslims and Persians are not. As referred to by me earlier in my post. Its a bit less simplistic than that. Seeing as to how the Iranians and proxies seem to be having the upper hand currently in the Middle East. Insofar as that is concerned, it has always been my belief that the Persians are natural allies of the Americans, but cannot be controlled, unlike the Arabs, and so are not and were not. And probably will never be, short of a relationship of equals. Which we both know is not how the US of A works. That the Persians are actually double teaming with the Jews I have little doubt about and this entire nuclear bogey hauwaa is just that. A bs red herring.

I will first reply this part separately, because there is a confusion and a grave one. I referred to past when I said

Persians vs the Christians and both of them vs Muslims would be the true picture ........ Jews are a very recent entry.

This in no way means I consider one party Muslim and other lesser Muslim or not Muslim at all. No that was never my intention neither I can decide that .......... its not my decision. But one thing I can see clearly current rulers of Muslim world are nowhere near the Deen.

Persians (Zoroastrians) of the past were fighting Rome (Christianity) ............ till the time came when both of them got beaten by Arabs (Muslims of that time). Arabs were united under one label Islam and there dedication and motivation came from Quran and its message, they were trained by Messenger (Peace be upon him) himself for 23 years, they undoubtedly would remain the best Muslims forever.

Now look at it into something like two super powers of their time get beaten by someone they always looked down at, considered meager, not a potent threat ........ it would naturally be a big big shock, and obviously they would like to know the reason, "what changed" ........ and they rightly jointly concluded this new dedication and unity stems from Quran, and the message of Quran is the biggest threat to their dictatorship and empires ............. if an ordinary person is made to believe that he was born free and he should remain free and all other humans like him are same none would bow in front of a dictator / emperor / king ....... and plus Quran is strictly against accumulation of wealth in few hands ........ the message of Quran is "One gets rewarded according to his struggle" ..... "No wealth is to be kept by individual except that is needed for his living, the excess is to go to state, to be shared with poor and handicap ............... and no state is to be run by a king but someone who is appointed after consultation ........ no one is free of accountability ......... just and fair society where humans are given every opportunity to think freely and research on the creations of the Creator." You can see for yourself how many would feel threatened by this message ................. so the unity happened only to save their kingship and against a common threat ............... what followed is result of that corruption ..... but still I nowhere intended to say today's Arabs are Muslims and Iranians are not ............. both of them read books written by their enemies and keep fueling a fight that should fail if they were to agree on Quran and rally around it.

Now I will try responding to rest of the points / questions raised by you.

I'd like to understand this further. The difference between faith and personal belief (and its resulting drive) versus organized religion one is born into and follows by rote?

Islam is deen .............. social order, addressing problems of humanity

Sunni, Shia, Wahabi, Salafi, Deobandi, Barelvi .......... are all religions ........... addressing Sunni, Shias and their own respective audience only.

But again all of them have Quran its just the matter of time when they will start understanding its true meaning. The first sign of that would be no more Sunnis, Shias just plain simple Muslims.

Children are not to be blamed they learn from their parents and their parents from their parents ............ it takes a little courage and a sudden questioning mind to get to the truth .......... no matter even if that truth is placed somewhere high wrapped in a shiny clothing in our houses. It's just a matter of time, if they won't non Muslims would and are doing.

Much of the similarities, common between the 3 Abrahamic faiths and Persian Zoroastrianism, is not specific only to Shia Islam alone. I do agree (and have agreed) that Shia Islam seems to be a LOT closer to Zoroastrianism than Sunni Islam, but that is a matter of degrees. I hear what you are saying though, as you struggle to convince your coreligionists here that it is not just Shia Islam which is "corrupted" but indeed the Hadeeth themselves - primarily driven by the Persians, 300 years after Muhammad's time. This is interesting and priorly unknown to me.

Everyone of them have their own books of hear says and both of them don't accept that the other has got the true, correct hear say books. And I in my personal capacity consider that nothing that contradicts Quran is true.

But I guess we are both agreed on the fact that within Islam, Arabs and Persians are oil and water, which a a fundamental problem, because the war within Islam today is being driven by exactly these two poles. I do note also that later in your post you go to pains to differentiate Persians from Muslims per se, which is of course something no Iranian is going to agree to. Because they will go to great pains to inform you that while Muhammad was an Arab, Islam per se is NOT Arabic. Which personally I believe is bollocks. But then, I'm just an Indian.

I blame Arabs for not translating Quran into different languages themselves and leaving that job for non Arabs, Arabic was / is their language they should have taken the charge but they didn't. Result lot of nonsensical interpretations and translations. Forget that they themselves forgot the message.

I blame Persians for they stick to false history and divide Muslims based on that. They still cry foul foul for something that may not even have happened 1400 years ago. Plus that feeling of humiliation of being defeated by lesser civilised people is still their .......... that may sometimes take shape of craving for the past glory days and empire. Rebellion against Mullah in Iran is visible too.

Also would appreciate a word from you explaining your point about Emperors and Caliphs. Lineage by birth and divine position in society versus a democratic leader? As below?

Emperor ........... someone who likes people to bow in front of him. No one else can be emperor but it is inherited. Who can hold an emperor accountable? Everyone would love to become an Emperor.

Caliph ........... someone who would have to answer to a commoner if that commoner questions his credentials and conduct. He will have to answer for every penny he has spent. A big job and a big burden ........ no one (except few) would wish to take this role in an ideal environment.

Just so I am clearer, do your ideas and beliefs belong to a particular school of Islamic belief? Like Salafi, Hanafi, etc. I know you have always been at pains in saying that there is only one Islam, and that you do not believe in the Sunni and Shia bit. So was interested in knowing if there was a name to this school of unified non sectarian thought.

Islam. And that Quran is the only one true Hadeeth. Other name is Muslim. No dashy signboards nothing. Struggle is to form One big Ummah of humans (As Quran likes to call it).

I'll allow you to have the last word on Pakistan as a Pakistani. But if Pakistan continues on its current path, it will continue to punch way below its weight in the Muslim equation. And sadly be seen as guns for hire by the big two.

We have to see, we start with little baby steps before we are capable of to start running.