Punjabi Culture in the subcontinent and beyond….

[Psycho Pakistani]

I was reading posts on the forums you listed, Harappadna south Indian componenet is not actually ASI. Haryana and Rajasthani jats seem to have more actual ASI compared to punjabi jats. South Indian component is generally 50% ASI depending on population.

Upcoming new Reich's paper will also explain NE Euro component in South Asian populations.

Is a new paper from Reich lab coming , that will be really interesting once again

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

Those are just theories concocted by some non-rajputs. They base rajput origin in gujjars by judging the name "gurjara pratihara". They say "gurjara pratihara" actually meant defenders of gujjars or gujjaristan. It doesn't necessarily mean that rajputs were gujjars. And rathods are theorized to be of Rashtrakuta descent, but they hardly look South Indian. There are rajput rathores living in AJK and they don't look any different from other rajput tribes there. The present day 45% ASI in Rajasthani rajputs is probably due to them mixing with UP and Bihari rajputs, who themselves are mixed with aboriginal dravidian tribes like Gonds.
.

Actually the link i posted some pages back about Rajasthan Rajput origin, they were rajputs themselves who were talking about that. They don't look like South Indians but neither like Punjabi rajputs on average.

What is possible as its been said before, if Rajasthan rajput moved to Punjab then their input was minimal in Punjabi rajputs going by genetic tests. And if one ignores Rajasthani jats then Rajput S Indian component is pretty similar to other higher caste Rajasthani people. But lower then for exemple Bhils, Kanjars etc

India rajput population is 45 million, while just 5 million in Rajasthan.

 

[Psycho Pakistani]

Actually the link i posted some pages back about Rajasthan Rajput origin, they were rajputs themselves who were talking about that. They don't look like South Indians but neither like Punjabi rajputs on average.

What is possible as its been said before, if Rajasthan rajput moved to Punjab then their input was minimal in Punjabi rajputs going by genetic tests. And if one ignores Rajasthani jats then Rajput S Indian component is pretty similar to other higher caste Rajasthani people. But lower then for exemple Bhils, Kanjars etc

India rajput population is 45 million, while just 5 million in Rajasthan.

I believe the tribe name "Rajput" did come from Rajasthan and became famous where ever they settled and local warrior/sodier families in punjab also perhaps started identifying with this ethnonym with time and hence so widespread proliferation of "Rajput" nomenclature, it is possible that most of the "Rajputs" in Punjab, Himachal and Jammu are actually from local ruling families who merely adopted "Rajput" as a title under influence of the political sphere of Rajasthani original "Rajputs" . I would propose more of an elite dominance situation where only elites of all modern Rajput clans did descend from original rajasthani rajputs but their foot soldiers (who would later adopt Rajput identity) were predominantly of local origin in every area outside of Rajasthan. That may explain the real reason for difference in genetics of pakistani and rajasthani rajputs.

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

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Well not only that but if the theory is true then what about Punjabi Jatts (90+% of whom claim descent from Rajputs, in personal life and elsewhere). . Moreover somebody said that Punjabi Gujjars ORIGINATED in Rajasthan and then came to Punjab (read my previous posts on this thread regarding this). Somebody also said that punjabi rajputs HAVE to be from Rajasthan originally.
Well if all Punjabi Jatts, Gujjars, Rajputs ORIGINATED elsewhere and came to Punjab in the last 1000 years, do you know what this would imply lol?
What about the arain or countless other tribes who share 'gotras' with gujjars and Jatts etc. All these people came recently to Punjab? That's millions and millions of people lol.
Most of Punjab's Jatts, Gujjars , Rajputs etc. are local people
who emerged from kingdoms like Kekaya and Kaurava IN THE PUNJAB. Granted there's continutiy to surrounding areas (including Rajasthan). But we have to be critical and nuanced about this. Heck not only Jatts, but so many other communities claim descent from Rajputs, are they all from Rajasthan lol?
If there was mating between locals and Hepthalites it must have happened IN THE PUNJAB too or did it just bypass Punjab and took place all the way in Rajasthan only to come back for whatever reason.
Morevover different rajput groups have been described everything under the sun from 'Turanian', 'Aryan' to even Turko-mongol and latter 'hepthalites'. There's a reason why this rajasthan theory is not accepted in academia but on this site people are pushing it
Also if you test hundreds or thousands of people , you'll get what I'm pointing to. On harrapa there's hardly any info about PUNJABI gujjars and neither about punjabi Rajputs (barring one or two samples, I remember Zack finally had one punjabi rajput sample and he was cheering in joy but there's hardly much data)
Rajputs, Gujjars, jatts are just kshatriyas or somewhere on the Kshatriya scale from ancient times in the Punjab who HAVE assimilated blood of Hepthalites etc. Yes, they continuity to surrounding areas but they DIDn'T originate there . That defies simple LOGIC

Actually they have 4-5 Punjabi/pahari rajput samples and 1 gujjar sample on harappadna. There is also one UP-pahari rajput sample.

And that punjabi gujjjar sample was almost similar to punjabi jatt, with difference of 1% here and there on different components.

I believe the tribe name "Rajput" did come from Rajasthan and became famous where ever they settled and local warrior/sodier families in punjab also perhaps started identifying with this ethnonym with time and hence so widespread proliferation of "Rajput" nomenclature, it is possible that most of the "Rajputs" in Punjab, Himachal and Jammu are actually from local ruling families who merely adopted "Rajput" as a title under influence of the political sphere of Rajasthani original "Rajputs" . I would propose more of an elite dominance situation where only elites of all modern Rajput clans did descend from original rajasthani rajputs but their foot soldiers (who would later adopt Rajput identity) were predominantly of local origin in every area outside of Rajasthan. That may explain the real reason for difference in genetics of pakistani and rajasthani rajputs.

I didnt say Rajasthani rajputs are fake, ofcourse they are real. Since Rajasthan is original homeland of first ''rajputs''.

 

[mughal arslan shah mirza]

Actually they have 4-5 Punjabi/pahari rajput samples and 1 gujjar sample on harappadna. There is also one UP-pahari rajput sample.

And that punjabi gujjjar sample was almost similar to punjabi jatt, with difference of 1% here and there on different components.

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Pahari could mean people from western Nepal who go by 'pahari'. It could mean people from Uttarakhand-Kumaon. It's a generic term. I doubt that there's that many PUNJABI rajput samples. When you're looking for pahari , you've to check punjabi-pahari. 'Pahari' by itself doesn't mean much.
Moreover, even that one or two samples of 'rajputs' are inconsequential. Nais and maliar and others in Punjab, AJK, Hazara love to take this title. Many of these people as they're getting richer/educated are choosing this title so.

 

[Psycho Pakistani]

Actually they have 4-5 Punjabi/pahari rajput samples and 1 gujjar sample on harappadna. There is also one UP-pahari rajput sample.

And that punjabi gujjjar sample was almost similar to punjabi jatt, with difference of 1% here and there on different components.



I didnt say Rajasthani rajputs are fake, ofcourse they are real. Since Rajasthan is original homeland of first ''rajputs''.

An interesting thing I found in pre-islamic and hence hindu ruled kashmir valley where ruling elites in Srinagar never referred to themselves as "Rajput" but as "Varman" which was hindu sanskrit kshatriya title that mean "Shield" as late as 11th century. That strengthens my belief that Rajput title was alien in northern and north western south asian states, the hindu rulers of Kabul and Peshawar and Taxila also used to refer to themselves as "Shahi" and not "Rajput" as late as 11 th century when their kingdom was collapsed due to Ghaznavid turks. "Rajput" title definitely is a latter import in the areas after 11th century and definitely from Rajasthan.

 

[mughal arslan shah mirza]

An interesting thing I found in pre-islamic and hence hindu ruled kashmir valley where ruling elites in Srinagar never referred to themselves as "Rajput" but as "Varman" which was hindu sanskrit kshatriya title that mean "Shield" as late as 11th century. That strengthens my belief that Rajput title was alien in northern and north western south asian states, the hindu rulers of Kabul and Peshawar and Taxila also used to refer to themselves as "Shahi" and not "Rajput" as late as 11 th century when their kingdom was collapsed due to Ghaznavid turks. "Rajput" title definitely is a latter import in the areas after 11th century and definitely from Rajasthan.

You're conflating 'ORIGINS' of different groups and titles. Allama Iqbal was called 'Sir' which is a title from UK. Does this mean that he originated in U.K or that he has genetic input from there? There's so many 'khans' that are not from historic Central Asia but use this title ALL over south Asia (millions of them).
Moreover, there were titles that the ' Shahis' used like Maha-RAJA-dhiraj which shows that the word RAJA is historic word that's been used in Punjab and different Punjab-similar groups to the west of Indus.

 

[Psycho Pakistani]

You're conflating 'ORIGINS' of different groups and titles. Allama Iqbal was called 'Sir' which is a title from UK. Does this mean that he originated in U.K or that he has genetic input from there? There's so many 'khans' that are not from historic Central Asia but use this title ALL over south Asia (millions of them).
Moreover, there were titles that the ' Shahis' used like Maha-RAJA-dhiraj which shows that the word RAJA is historic word that's been used in Punjab and different Punjab-similar groups to the west of Indus.

Raj and Raja are indeed sanskrit words which were used for hindu kings all over south asia. But the combination "Raj" + "put" = Rajput developed in one particular area of Rajasthan and proliferated by the clans which spread from there to other parts of south asia, "Rajput" as a group is never found in any historical hindu document pre 10th century in areas located in north west of south asia punjab, peshawar or kashmir etc.

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

Pahari could mean people from western Nepal who go by 'pahari'. It could mean people from Uttarakhand-Kumaon. It's a generic term. I doubt that there's that many PUNJABI rajput samples. When you're looking for pahari , you've to check punjabi-pahari. 'Pahari' by itself doesn't mean much.
Moreover, even that one or two samples of 'rajputs' are inconsequential. Nais and maliar and others in Punjab, AJK, Hazara love to take this title. Many of these people as they're getting richer/educated are choosing this title so.

UP pahari rajput have 47% s Indian. While 2 punjabi-pahari rajputs have 34% s indian component and one Kashmiri rajput who is from AJK and most likely Pahari/punjabi rajput, 32% S Indian. And there is difference in other components as well for obvious reasons.

So there is clear difference between UP/pahari rajput and Punjabi-rajput. Also there was 1 sample of punjabi chamar with 40% S Indian component.

 

[ghoul]

.


Well not only that but if the theory is true then what about Punjabi Jatts (90+% of whom claim descent from Rajputs, in personal life and elsewhere). . Moreover somebody said that Punjabi Gujjars ORIGINATED in Rajasthan and then came to Punjab (read my previous posts on this thread regarding this). Somebody also said that punjabi rajputs HAVE to be from Rajasthan originally.
Well if all Punjabi Jatts, Gujjars, Rajputs ORIGINATED elsewhere (rajasthan) and came to Punjab in the last 1000 or so years, do you know what this would imply lol?
What about the arain or countless other tribes who share 'gotras' with gujjars and Jatts etc. All these people came recently to Punjab? That's millions and millions of people lol.
Most of Punjab's Jatts, Gujjars , Rajputs etc. are local people
who emerged from kingdoms like Kekaya and Kaurava IN THE PUNJAB. Granted there's continutiy to surrounding areas (including Rajasthan). But we have to be critical and nuanced about this. Heck not only Jatts, but so many other communities claim descent from Rajputs, are they all from Rajasthan lol?
If there was mating between locals and Hepthalites it must have happened IN THE PUNJAB too or did it just bypass Punjab and took place all the way in Rajasthan only to come back for whatever reason.
Morevover different rajput groups have been described everything under the sun from 'Turanian', 'Aryan' to even Turko-mongol and latter 'hepthalites'. There's a reason why this rajasthan theory is not accepted in academia but on this site people are pushing it
Also if you test hundreds or thousands of people , you'll get what I'm pointing to. On harrapa there's hardly any info about PUNJABI gujjars and neither about punjabi Rajputs (barring one or two samples, I remember Zack finally had one punjabi rajput sample and he was cheering in joy but there's hardly much data). Moreover in Punjab many non-rajputs claim to be rajput nowadays so we need to have hundreds if not thousands of samples.
Rajputs, Gujjars, jatts are just kshatriyas or somewhere on the Kshatriya scale from ancient times in the Punjab who HAVE assimilated blood of Hepthalites etc. Yes, they have continuity to surrounding areas but they DIDn'T originate there . That defies simple LOGIC

Let me tell you an interesting thing. Almost all rajputs in central Punjab are descended from Bhatti rajputs. Manj, Noon, Wattoo and Bhatti themselves are all sub-castes of one another. Bhattis' origin lies in Sialkot, Punjab. Even the Bhattis of Jaisalmer in Rajasthan are originally Punjabis. The other main rajput-jatt hybrid clans like Kharrals, Tiwana and Sials claim descent from a person called "Raja Karan", who's thought by some to be none other than the Karan of Kauravas in Mahabharata.

In Potohar, AJK, two main rajput clans are Janjuas(including the Khakhas of Muzaffarabad) and Jarrals, both of whom claim descent from Pandavas of mahabharata. My own Sohlar clan and the Narma Rajputs of Rawalpindi/AJK(Tikka Khan was a Narma) are said to be descendants of Parmara rajputs of Gujarat who migrated thousands of years ago.

My point being, in Punjab almost all rajput clans are related and almost none of them have their origin in Rajasthan. In fact, some Rajasthani rajputs like Bhattis have a Punjabi origin.

Secondly, just another theory to add. They say the "bhatt" and butt of Kashmir are also originally descended from Bhatti rajputs as Bhatti rajputs invaded and ruled Kashmir for at least 2 centuries around 1300ADs if I'm not mistaken. Interesting stuff.

 

[mughal arslan shah mirza]

Raj and Raja are indeed sanskrit words which were used for hindu kings all over south asia. But the combination "Raj" + "put" = Rajput developed in one particular area of Rajasthan and proliferated by the clans which spread from there to other parts of south asia, "Rajput" as a group is never found in any historical hindu document pre 10th century in areas located in north west of south asia punjab, peshawar or kashmir etc.

And rajput is also a sanskrit word which according to many sources just means 'son of a raja' so it doesn't have to come from anywhere from outside. Punjabi itself is one of the most sanskritized language. Moreover just like I mentioned earlier , you're conflating genetic origins of these tribes to titles.
Do all the khans in South-asia ORIGINATED in Central Asia? Nope.

 

[ghoul]

UP pahari rajput have 47% s Indian. While 2 punjabi-pahari rajputs have 34% s indian component and one Kashmiri rajput who is from AJK and most likely Pahari/punjabi rajput, 32% S Indian. And there is difference in other components as well for obvious reasons.

So there is clear difference between UP/pahari rajput and Punjabi-rajput. Also there was 1 sample of punjabi chamar with 40% S Indian component.

They added a number of "muslim Punjabi gujjars" recently on harappadna. All of them were 31-33% south Indian. Some "muslim Punjabi jatts" were also added, and they also showed a ~31% average south Indian. All these clans seem to be related. And I'd imagine "Pahari rajput" and "Kashmiri" rajput to be the Chibhs of AJK, who migrated from Himachal only during the time of Aurangzeb. I bet the Punjabi rajputs like Bhatti etc would have a lower south Indian component.

All in all, in my opinion, pure jatts and rajputs should have around 27-28% south Indian.


Some members of the Chibh rajput royal family. They possessed two princely states; Bhimber and Khari Kharaili before Sikh and dogra invasions. The Khari Kharaili state in Mangla routed Sikh and dogra armies twice. The kid on the left displays strong south Indian features.

 

[mughal arslan shah mirza]

UP pahari rajput have 47% s Indian. While 2 punjabi-pahari rajputs have 34% s indian component and one Kashmiri rajput who is from AJK and most likely Pahari/punjabi rajput, 32% S Indian. And there is difference in other components as well for obvious reasons.

So there is clear difference between UP/pahari rajput and Punjabi-rajput. Also there was 1 sample of punjabi chamar with 40% S Indian component.

Well that was the point I was raising that there's not enough punjabi rajput or Gujjar samples to make a clear analysis about 'origins'. There's only two in this post of yours (meaning punjabi-pahari) and they're different to the people from UP precisely because they're punjabi.Does it make sense, brother? Are punjabi Gujjars expected to be same as UP Gujjars? (despite the fact that according to some they ORIGINATED in Rajasthan )
Or are punjabi Jatts expected to be same as UP jatts?
Even a Nai or Maliar claiming to be 'rajput' in punjab would most likely be less 'SI' than a UP rajput.

My point is simply this: These 'origin myths' are called origin myths for a reason. Chattha Jatts claim descent from Chauhan Rajputs. Ghumman Jatts claim descent from Janjua rajput (in fact there's 6 or 7 Jatt communities that do ). If all these Jatt's , Gujjars, Rajputs, Arain came yesterday to Punjab and from Rajasthan of all places, then might as well start calling us Rajasthanis. This is Hindu-centric and India-centric stuff. I'm surprised it's being pushed on this board lol

@haj9211

Bhattis ruled over Kashmir in the pre-Shahi and Pre-Turk era, I know this much. Really not sure about the 14th-century. Interestingly there are branches of Marathas that claim descent from Bhatti Rajputs of Punjab. One acquaintance of mine who's a Bhatiya from Gujarat (india) claims descent from Bhatti Rajputs of Punjab. The Bhoite Marathas of Mahrashtra claim to be descended from Punjab's Bhatti Rajputs

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

Let me tell you an interesting thing. Almost all rajputs in central Punjab are descended from Bhatti rajputs. Manj, Noon, Wattoo and Bhatti themselves are all sub-castes of one another. Bhattis' origin lies in Sialkot, Punjab. Even the Bhattis of Jaisalmer in Rajasthan are originally Punjabis. The other main rajput-jatt hybrid clans like Kharrals, Tiwana and Sials claim descent from a person called "Raja Karan", who's thought by some to be none other than the Karan of Kauravas in Mahabharata.

In Potohar, AJK, two main rajput clans are Janjuas(including the Khakhas of Muzaffarabad) and Jarrals, both of whom claim descent from Pandavas of mahabharata. My own Sohlar clan and the Narma Rajputs of Rawalpindi/AJK(Tikka Khan was a Narma) are said to be descendants of Parmara rajputs of Gujarat who migrated thousands of years ago.

My point being, in Punjab almost all rajput clans are related and almost none of them have their origin in Rajasthan. In fact, some Rajasthani rajputs like Bhattis have a Punjabi origin.

Secondly, just another theory to add. They say the "bhatt" and butt of Kashmir are also originally descended from Bhatti rajputs as Bhatti rajputs invaded and ruled Kashmir for at least 2 centuries around 1300ADs if I'm not mistaken. Interesting stuff.

Watto political family in Okara claim to be jats, most likely because they are in Central Punjab.

 

[qamar1990]

indo aryan phenotype best preserved in this child

Dalits of Punjab Pakistan

so a massali = a dalit?
what you the different baraderis in multan area?